Which plane to upgrade to?

mandm

mandm

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Michael
Love the Piper Arrow and have put on a ton of hours this year, am interested in starting the consideration of a bigger and faster airplane. Looking for suggestions.

6+ seater
200+ knots (preferably faster)
Budget 300k ready to fly
 
That criteria is going to be tough to meet if no concessions are allowable.

How much weight are you looking to haul? How many hours between stops?
 
mondtster said:
That criteria is going to be tough to meet if no concessions are allowable.

How much weight are you looking to haul? How many hours between stops?
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900-1000lbs for pax & baggage
4 hours flight plus 1 hour reserve (1000-1200nm)
 
I don’t think you’re going to get there without a twin.
 
mondtster said:
You’re not making it any easier. Closest thing to meet every requirement is probably an Aerostar.
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How about the Cessna twins?

I could get away with 700lbs plus fuel. Really not looking to fly longer than 3 hours at a time with plenty of reserves, have flown 4.5 hours before and wasn’t fun. I do travel with my dogs so oxygen is a concern if flying higher up. Unsure if pressurized is realistic for a low time pilot, insurance wise.
 
Is there a common route you intend to fly and wouldn't mind sharing the airport codes. Example: Is there always mountain flying? Summer flying over hot southern states? Winter flights with typical icing?, etc
 
mandm said:
How about the Cessna twins?

I could get away with 700lbs plus fuel. Really not looking to fly longer than 3 hours at a time with plenty of reserves, have flown 4.5 hours before and wasn’t fun. I do travel with my dogs so oxygen is a concern if flying higher up. Unsure if pressurized is realistic for a low time pilot, insurance wise.
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I don’t think any of the major requirements would be able to be met with the typical twin Cessnas.
 
Sinistar said:
Is there a common route you intend to fly and wouldn't mind sharing the airport codes. Example: Is there always mountain flying? Summer flying over hot southern states? Winter flights with typical icing?, etc
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A variety of routes, mostly east coast, north to south. I want to avoid icing and limit IMC. In the future would like to add some west coast flying.
 
mandm said:
How about the Cessna twins?

I could get away with 700lbs plus fuel. Really not looking to fly longer than 3 hours at a time with plenty of reserves, have flown 4.5 hours before and wasn’t fun. I do travel with my dogs so oxygen is a concern if flying higher up. Unsure if pressurized is realistic for a low time pilot, insurance wise.
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I have 900ish hours and my broker laughed at me when I asked about insurance on a pressurized plane.
 
Salty said:
I have 900ish hours and my broker laughed at me when I asked about insurance on a pressurized plane.
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So not trying to skew the OPs question here - but since mission basically eliminates all but pressurized aircraft… what is the step up into pressurization if not via $$$? For example, I have SR22T time with a 25k ft service ceiling, does that add chits to my pile? Similar risks/risk management.
 
mandm said:
A variety of routes, mostly east coast, north to south. I want to avoid icing and limit IMC. In the future would like to add some west coast flying.
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Interesting, then no need for FIKI and Turbo is less of a need but the 200kts seems like Turbo is still needed to get up there faster.

Are really going to fill more than 4 total seats? Maybe describe general weights and sizes for each seat?
 
kaiser said:
So not trying to skew the OPs question here - but since mission basically eliminates all but pressurized aircraft… what is the step up into pressurization if not via $$$? For example, I have SR22T time with a 25k ft service ceiling, does that add chits to my pile? Similar risks/risk management.
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It was probably doable, but the premiums began at 5 digits a year.
 
Sounds like you're looking for a King Air that's stolen or has flood damage.
If you drop the speed requirement, and the 6 passenger thing is a "guideline", then a Saratoga.
 
To fit your budget, a used vitatoe 210 would come really close to all desired specs…

the silver eagle would be out of your price range
 
Sinistar said:
Interesting, then no need for FIKI and Turbo is less of a need but the 200kts seems like Turbo is still needed to get up there faster.

Are really going to fill more than 4 total seats? Maybe describe general weights and sizes for each seat?
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Not going to fill more than 4 seats, just wanted a bit more speed and space. I’m getting 130kts now, so would like any upgrade to be substantially faster so wasn’t keen on anything that’s marginally faster (i.e. 150-170kts). Also at higher altitudes with a headwind my 130kts and lower manifold pressure quickly turns into 100kts GS or less.
 
mandm said:
Not going to fill more than 4 seats, just wanted a bit more speed and space. I’m getting 130kts now, so would like any upgrade to be substantially faster so wasn’t keen on anything that’s marginally faster (i.e. 150-170kts). Also at higher altitudes with a headwind my 130kts and lower manifold pressure quickly turns into 100kts GS or less.
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This is kind of my general mission and I’m saving for a baby Baron (Model 55, would love an E, but could settle for B, C, or D as well). 6 seats but the back row is really only for kids. The C, D, and E have lots of luggage room. Each will do 170-185 depending on configuration and how much you really want to burn. B55 with the PII conversion will touch 200 IIRC.
 
kaiser said:
This is kind of my general mission and I’m saving for a baby Baron (Model 55, would love an E, but could settle for B, C, or D as well). 6 seats but the back row is really only for kids. The C, D, and E have lots of luggage room. Each will do 170-185 depending on configuration and how much you really want to burn. B55 with the PII conversion will touch 200 IIRC.
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Theres no point in the third row of seats in a 55 Baron, you’ll be aft of CG limits.

In my experience, a B55 will do 175ish at realistic cruising altitudes. I’d expect a big engine 55 to be faster but I think it might be generous to expect 200, unless you like sucking on oxygen.

As for your pressurized insurance question, you’re kind of stuck with high rates until you get some time.
 
mondtster said:
Why go so high then?
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My inexperience? :eek:
Was planning 8.5k, then climbed to 12.5k. Cloud deck was rising ahead, 3–5k ceilings reported at airports en route. Surface temps were in the mid 90s. Didn’t want to sweat the entire route.

Prob should just practice IMC more and stay at the sweet spot 5-6k feet.

Do turbos typically give full power at all altitudes?
 
The only answer is Aerostar.

Otherwise you're making a concession

Cessna pistons suck
 
mandm said:
…Do turbos typically give full power at all altitudes?
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Maybe. Critical altitude is the altitude above which the turbo can’t maintain max manifold pressure. Since boost air is usually a couple hundred degrees hotter than a standard atmosphere, that also has an impact.

Is it noticeable? Depends on the setup.
 
mandm said:
My inexperience? :eek:
Was planning 8.5k, then climbed to 12.5k. Cloud deck was rising ahead, 3–5k ceilings reported at airports en route. Surface temps were in the mid 90s. Didn’t want to sweat the entire route.

Prob should just practice IMC more and stay at the sweet spot 5-6k feet.

Do turbos typically give full power at all altitudes?
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I would categorize it as your comfort level rather than inexperience. Comfort level can have two meanings in this case, one being physical comfort (heat) the other being comfort level with different operations. In this case it sounds like you chose physical comfort over speed/IMC. If the wind up high was pretty ugly I would have stayed low and just dealt with the heat.

The nice thing about pressurized piston airplanes is that they’re pretty versatile. They’ll cruise just as well at 2000’ as they will at 20,000’ and the power setting will likely be the same or close to it at both. Last week I flew the Malibu 1/3 of the way across the US at 19,000’. A nasty line of storms limited options on my return trip, so I flew it VFR at 3500 and 2500. True airspeed was lower down low but I didn’t have nearly as much headwind either.
 
mandm said:
Love the Piper Arrow and have put on a ton of hours this year, am interested in starting the consideration of a bigger and faster airplane. Looking for suggestions.

6+ seater
200+ knots (preferably faster)
Budget 300k ready to fly
Click to expand...
That's really a tough one. Four adults plus gear can easily be 800-1,000lbs.

There's a very short list of planes, almost all twins that will meet your criteria especially with long cross country flights in mind. 140gal of 100ll @840lbs plus 800-1,100lbs of people and gear is tough enough but to do that cruising a 175-200kts leaves you with very few reasonably priced options.

It can be done but it would take some really good luck to meet all of those criteria for your 300k price. If you look there are some that at least on the surface look like good deals with reasonably low time engines but they tend to be hangar queens that can have significant hidden issues not all of which will be found on a pre buy inspection.
 
mandm said:
My inexperience? :eek:
Was planning 8.5k, then climbed to 12.5k. Cloud deck was rising ahead, 3–5k ceilings reported at airports en route. Surface temps were in the mid 90s. Didn’t want to sweat the entire route.

Prob should just practice IMC more and stay at the sweet spot 5-6k feet.

Do turbos typically give full power at all altitudes?
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I don’t think that you…oh nevermind. Just get an MU2. Experience be damned. But I would like your contact info so I can get you some life insurance with me as beneficiary.
 
O2 Birddog said:
That's really a tough one. Four adults plus gear can easily be 800-1,000lbs.

There's a very short list of planes, almost all twins that will meet your criteria especially with long cross country flights in mind. 140gal of 100ll @840lbs plus 800-1,100lbs of people and gear is tough enough but to do that cruising a 175-200kts leaves you with very few reasonably priced options.

It can be done but it would take some really good luck to meet all of those criteria for your 300k price. If you look there are some that at least on the surface look like good deals with reasonably low time engines but they tend to be hangar queens that can have significant hidden issues not all of which will be found on a pre buy inspection.
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Here’s the numbers for my Seneca:

With full fuel (123 gal), I can carry 800 lbs. I plan 175 KTAS burning around 24 gph at 11.5k to 12.5. I’ve got O2 and FIKI (and air conditioning). I paid significantly less than $300k.

No, it doesn’t cruise at 200 knots, but it’s comfortable, especially in the back which is key for my wife.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Here’s the numbers for my Seneca:

With full fuel (123 gal), I can carry 800 lbs. I plan 175 KTAS burning around 24 gph at 11.5k to 12.5. I’ve got O2 and FIKI (and air conditioning). I paid significantly less than $300k.

No, it doesn’t cruise at 200 knots, but it’s comfortable, especially in the back which is key for my wife.
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Which model?
 
Sluggo63 said:
It’s a Seneca III.
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Very nice airplanes and fairly economical to operate considering what they have to offer. I've looked at several of them over the last two years and there are some decent deals to be had.

You'd be surprised what you can find out there in a nice twin for under 200k if you just search the right sites and do so regularly.
 
Tantalum said:
The only answer is Aerostar.

Otherwise you're making a concession

Cessna pistons suck
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Odd considering how dominant they are in the market particularly with flying schools.
 
mandm said:
Love the Piper Arrow and have put on a ton of hours this year, am interested in starting the consideration of a bigger and faster airplane. Looking for suggestions.

6+ seater
200+ knots (preferably faster)
Budget 300k ready to fly
Click to expand...
Check your messages.
 
O2 Birddog said:
Odd considering how dominant they are in the market
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They certainly were made in high volume. Flying is a compromise, and obviously what Cessna offered works (or at least worked for most people). I'm just not one of them. Incidentally we have a really well equipped 172 now in our club, pretty paint, nice avionics, electric MT prop.. good speed for a 172. I put about 10 hrs on it trying to love it (great price, looks nice) but when push came to shove I just don't like the way they fly.

Most of their twins looks great though, especially the 310, 340, and the 337. The 340 aged well, the 310 just looks fast, and the 337 has the utilitarian look to go with it. But I could never justify owning one any of them. For me those compromises don't balance out in my favor

Having said that, their classic tail draggers really do hit the mark of "this is what a light GA plane should look like" .. so there's that!
 
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