Which airplane for this mission...?

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PeterDudek

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PeterDudek
I had such a great experience :) with my post seeking advice that I have decided to ask another question.

I'd like to buy an airplane. But after countless hours browsing TAP I'm still confused.

My situation/mission is this...
- I'll be taking my check ride in a few days
- I've got a little over 100 hours
- I plan to immediately begin IFR training
- I want to travel the US extensively with my family of 6 (and their luggage)
- I'm not rich :rolleyes: yet... (so the PC-12 idea is on hold)
- All my training is in a PA28-151

Any suggestions?
 
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Funkeruski said:
Cherokee 6 300?
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Nobody is travelling the US extensively with all 6 seats filled in a PA32.

You really need to ask yourself how bad do you need an airplane that will haul a family of 6 to cover the US 'extensively'?

All of your other desires can be easily met by any number of GA airplanes, but the kind of aircraft that you will need to haul 6 around is going to require a whole lot more than 100 hrs in your logbook simply from an insurance standpoint. You are seriously going to need a PC-12 for that....or plan on getting your ME rating and start building the time.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Nobody is travelling the US extensively with all 6 seats filled in a PA32.

You really need to ask yourself how bad do you need an airplane that will haul a family of 6 to cover the US 'extensively'?

All of your other desires can be easily met by any number of GA airplanes, but the kind of aircraft that you will need to haul 6 around is going to require a whole lot more than 100 hrs in your logbook simply from an insurance standpoint. You are seriously going to need a PC-12 for that....or plan on getting your ME rating and start building the time.
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That's the problem I'm having with the PA32's - Full Seats + moderate baggage = not very much range.

I'm open to the idea of ME, but don't know if that's something I should think about until I have a lot more time in the book.

I've seen some pretty nice light twins for not very much money...and I'm planning on being in training for the foreseeable future...

Hmmmm...
 
How open are you to twins? It sounds like a twin fits your mission perfectly.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
How open are you to twins? It sounds like a twin fits your mission perfectly.
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Problem with twins is that even if he gets the rating, the kinds of twins that will haul a family of 6 are going to be way out of his insurance range for several hundred hours.

If the family trips are important, I'd say look into a 207.

If the family travels can wait a few years, find a way to build as much time and experience as cost effectively as possible and work your way up to a cabin class twin....or that PC-12.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Problem with twins is that even if he gets the rating, the kinds of twins that will haul a family of 6 are going to be way out of his insurance range for several hundred hours.
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Aztec? 6 seat 310? 55 Baron? those wouldn't be too far right?
 
Maybe I should go with the PA32's and be content with re-fueling often. Some of us :wink2: have small bladders anyway.
 
But I'm open to the idea of a twin. Don't want to get over my head, but I'm planning on doing a lot of flying. I've put this off for 30 years - I have a lot of lost time to make up for.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Aztec? 6 seat 310? 55 Baron? those wouldn't be too far right?
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Keep in mind, he said he has to haul 6 people to travel extensively around the US.....that means plenty of luggage too. Even in light twins, you can't typically fill every seat onboard and still carry any luggage of consequence.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Keep in mind, he said he has to haul 6 people to travel extensively around the US.....that means plenty of luggage too. Even in light twins, you can't typically fill every seat onboard and still carry any luggage of consequence.
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Aztec/Aztruck
 
Insurance is pretty pricey for a low time PP on any sort of twin.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Exactly. I'd think it would be much easier for a low time pilot to get coverage for a 207 than any twin out there.
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Actually the 208 is cheaper to operate. insure, and will do the mission easy.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Aztec/Aztruck
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This would fit the mission perfectly, provided that 155 kts is an acceptable cruise speed. Cheap to buy, reasonable to maintain and operate. I've operated one for 900 hours.

You'll need your IR and about another 150 hours total time before you'll be insurable in it. After the first year, your insurance premiums will decrease by about 40%, at least that was my experience.
 
PeterDudek said:
I've seen some pretty nice light twins for not very much money...and I'm planning on being in training for the foreseeable future...
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Which had run-out engines that would cost two to three times the price of the airframe to rebuild or replace...

You may just have to give two of the kids up for adoption... ;) :yikes: :yesnod:
 
Fearless Tower said:
Nobody is travelling the US extensively with all 6 seats filled in a PA32 unless they are in the witness protection program or being held for ransom.

You really need to ask yourself how bad do you need an airplane that will haul a family of 6 to cover the US 'extensively'?

All of your other desires can be easily met by any number of GA airplanes, but the kind of aircraft that you will need to haul 6 around is going to require a whole lot more than 100 hrs in your logbook simply from an insurance standpoint. You are seriously going to need a PC-12 for that....or plan on getting your ME rating and start building the time.
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FTFY:wink2:
 
An Aztec, 310, or Baron can make a good plane for the mission.

The Baron has the smallest interior, and is the most efficient. The 310 has the hottest wing and is the least forgiving. The Aztec has the largest interior and is most forgiving, which makes it a nice first twin, especially for a pilot with low total time. I wanted a 310 since I started flying, but am glad I started out with the Aztec. However, no shortage of people have started out with a 310 or Baron just fine.

The real pitfalls of a light twin purchase are making sure the plane was properly cared for. Little items on what appears to be an airworthy aircraft can add up quickly, and even such things as low total time engines that have lots of years on them can cause problems if they weren't properly cared for. I talked to one owner who had a plane for sale with low engine times. Of course, you get into the details and find that one of them was overhauled 11 years ago and the other 15. The plane was rarely flown, and one of the engines appeared to have been done with overhauled cylinders, and at less than 1/3 time already had one that needed to be replaced.

Even if you buy a good one, expect to spend the first year or two spending money on repairs and upgrades to make it how you want it.
 
- I want to travel the US extensively with my family of 6 (and their luggage)

This is the *****, it really really is. You can do it "on the cheap" in a PA-32, BE-36, 210.... But it will require a hardy non whiny or at least docile and subservient clan. If you're all 'little people', that would be a bonus.

If you really want to travel a lot you're looking at planes with a $400hr+ operating budget. That said a 421B or a King Air 200 depending on budget would be the best planes for your stated "traveling a lot with the family" mission.

For a moderate in between of an unpressurized/no lav first twin I'd say a 58 Baron with 550s.
 
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Henning said:
- I want to travel the US extensively with my family of 6 (and their luggage)

This is the *****, it really really is. You can do it "on the cheap" in a PA-32, BE-36, 210.... But it will require a hardy non whiny or at least docile and subservient clan. If you're all 'little people', that would be a bonus.

If you really want to travel a lot you're looking at planes with a $400hr+ operating budget. That said a 421B or a King Air 200 depending on budget would be the best planes for your stated "traveling a lot with the family" mission.

For a moderate in between of an unpressurized/no lav first twin I'd say a 58 Baron with 550s.
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Cessna 208 operates a hell of a lot less than that, Fuel consumption .581 lbs/shph 9000 hour engine TBO. up to ten seats,

at 6 seats, that's 2 in the front, 4 in back leaves about half the cabin to load baggage, and plenty of gross weight for full fuel.
When Harbor Air went from Chieftains to Cessna 208s they cut their op costs in half.

And remember you can lease them from Cessna.

http://www.cessna.com/caravan.html?gclid=CJDeq4SRy64CFUoZQgodNhMEZg
 
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Tom-D said:
Cessna 208 operates a hell of a lot less than that, Fuel consumption .581 lbs/shph 9000 hour engine TBO. up to ten seats,

at 6 seats, that's 2 in the front, 4 in back leaves about half the cabin to load baggage, and plenty of gross weight for full fuel.
When Harbor Air went from Chieftains to Cessna 208s they cut their op costs in half.

And remember you can lease them from Cessna.

http://www.cessna.com/caravan.html?gclid=CJDeq4SRy64CFUoZQgodNhMEZg
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Neither the 208 nor Chieftain is pressurized and the 208 is slow, but yeah, they'll work as well.
 
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Tom-D said:
Pressurization?? was that required by the OP?
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He didn't require anything, he asked what the best plane for the mission was. The mission included extensive travel of the US with a family of 6. That calls for pressurization IMO since family sucking O2 isn't optimum for a variety of reasons.
 
Henning said:
He didn't require anything, he asked what the best plane for the mission was. The mission included extensive travel of the US with a family of 6. That calls for pressurization IMO since family sucking O2 isn't optimum for a variety of reasons.
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for a pilot with these restrictions and requirements a move up into any aircraft that has the capability is going to be a huge step up.
My situation/mission is this...
- I'll be taking my check ride in a few days
- I've got a little over 100 hours
- I plan to immediately begin IFR training
- I want to travel the US extensively with my family of 6 (and their luggage)
- I'm not rich yet... (so the PC-12 idea is on hold)
- All my training is in a PA28-151

The Cessna 208 Caravan would be the simplest aircraft to meet his load and would be the easiest to make the transition, no multi requirements, no engine management issues, (9000 hour TBO) Fixed gear, great load limits, de-ice capable, Training for the IR is brick simple, launch dependability unmatched in the industry, plus it can be leased from Cessna no need to buy one.

To get from where he is to where he wants to be in any reasonable time, it is the only option IMHO.
 
PeterDudek said:
I had such a great experience :) with my post seeking advice that I have decided to ask another question.

I'd like to buy an airplane. But after countless hours browsing TAP I'm still confused.

My situation/mission is this...
- I'll be taking my check ride in a few days
- I've got a little over 100 hours
- I plan to immediately begin IFR training
- I want to travel the US extensively with my family of 6 (and their luggage)
- I'm not rich :rolleyes: yet... (so the PC-12 idea is on hold)
- All my training is in a PA28-151

Any suggestions?
Click to expand...

Hi Peter,

How old are your kids? If you mentioned it somewhere and I missed it, I apologize.

Also, I didn't see anyone mention "turbocharged". If you plan on using airports in and around the mountains, this is a must.

On a hot summer day, a 6000 ft field elevation can reach 9000+ DA easily.

Since you're low time, I would suggest a Turbo 206. The 5th and 6th seats are fine for small children, and the double doors will make loading/unloading much easier.

Why bother with a retract if you don't need the speed? You would probably have a problem getting insurance, anyway.

Also, if luggage is a problem, you can always ship clothes ahead of you, do laundry along the way, etc.

One take-off in a normally-aspirated 6 place single at gross wt on a high DA day, and you'll know what I mean..
 
Tom-D said:
The Cessna 208 Caravan would be the simplest aircraft to meet his load and would be the easiest to make the transition, no multi requirements, no engine management issues, (9000 hour TBO) Fixed gear, great load limits, de-ice capable, Training for the IR is brick simple, launch dependability unmatched in the industry, plus it can be leased from Cessna no need to buy one.

To get from where he is to where he wants to be in any reasonable time, it is the only option IMHO.
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Not disagreeing with your selling points, but this was also listed:

- I'm not rich yet... (so the PC-12 idea is on hold)

421B $250k for a good one; Cessna 208 $208 $1MM+. The cost of floating $750k is not insignificant.

The big difference between commercial and private transport is the down time cost, that is where turbines shine. In business it's not the repairs that kill you, it's the missed business.

In private hands if you can't afford the fuel, you can park the plane and not spend. If you have a $750k note, you can't just not make your payments.
 
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Henning said:
Not disagreeing with your selling points, but this was also listed:

- I'm not rich yet... (so the PC-12 idea is on hold)

421B $250k for a good one; Cessna 208 $208 $1MM+. The cost of floating $750k is not insignificant.

The big difference between commercial and private transport is the down time cost, that is where turbines shine. In business it's not the repairs that kill you, it's the missed business.

In private hands if you can't afford the fuel, you can park the plane and not spend. If you have a $750k note, you can't just not make your payments.
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That's why leasing is the best option.
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
Hi Peter,

Also, I didn't see anyone mention "turbocharged". If you plan on using airports in and around the mountains, this is a must.

Not true, horse power is not a substitute for flying skills, I've been to Leadvill in a 85 horse J3.The picture is a 165 horse Fairchild at 14.3k direct casper -> Pocatello

On a hot summer day, a 6000 ft field elevation can reach 9000+ DA easily.

And I've taken a C-150 to 14k, It's all about load.

Since you're low time, I would suggest a Turbo 206. The 5th and 6th seats are fine for small children, and the double doors will make loading/unloading much easier.

Why bother with a retract if you don't need the speed? You would probably have a problem getting insurance, anyway.

Also, if luggage is a problem, you can always ship clothes ahead of you, do laundry along the way, etc.

One take-off in a normally-aspirated 6 place single at gross wt on a high DA day, and you'll know what I mean..
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do you really want a low time pilot managing a turbo'ed high hose power engine, with known fuel management problems?

with the load this low time pilot is asking to carry, the 206/7 is at the top of its ability, and leaves very little safety factor, he will have to contend with CG and gross weight problems, any of which could kill the entire family.
 

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