Which airplane for this mission...?

I think the question needs a little more definition.

1. What does the OP mean by "... travel the US extensively..."? An extended, one-time, multi-destination trip around the US? Frequent trips to various destinations? An annual trip to a destination 2,000 miles away and numerous shorter ones?

2. How much money is available? All we know is he can't afford a PC-12.
 
Thing is a 6 person + luggage + travel mission requires minimum 400hp, preferably 450hp or a turbo to give you a margin at higher DAs. That means as of now you have only the Comanche 400 (back 2 seats are SMALL), Spartan Exec, Beaver or turbines in the SE market.

Twins aren't that damned bad if you operate them well.
 
Tom-D said:
do you really want a low time pilot managing a turbo'ed high hose power engine, with known fuel management problems?

with the load this low time pilot is asking to carry, the 206/7 is at the top of its ability, and leaves very little safety factor, he will have to contend with CG and gross weight problems, any of which could kill the entire family.
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You are a tad confused between maintaining altitude and take off performance.

About your Leadville departure (one of my stops on the Mtn check-out course I taught) , your power to wt was probably much better than a grossed-out NA 6 seater!!

You're not comparing apples to apples!. (in fact, your thinking is VERY dangerous!!)

I know of one operator that has had the same T206 for over 30 years. It's been a fantastic bird for him.

If Peter buys one and trains for his IFR ticket in it, he'll be in good shape.
 
Tom-D said:
do you really want a low time pilot managing a turbo'ed high hose power engine, with known fuel management problems?
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There's nothing magic about the engine in a Turbo 206. I have about 3,600 hours in them starting when I had a fresh commercial, but they are so simple you could learn to fly in one. Much of the time I flew it in Colorado and it did not have performance problems. I think it would be a good choice although a little small. You could get six people in there but I don't know what you would do about the bags. A Caravan is going to be 5 to10 times the price of a 206.
 
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Everskyward said:
There's nothing magic about the engine in a Turbo 206. I have about 3,600 hours in them starting when I had a fresh commercial, but they are so simple you could learn to fly in one. Much of the time I flew it in Colorado and it did not have performance problems. I think it would be a good choice although a little small. You could get six people in there but I don't know what you would do about the bags. A Caravan is going to be 5 to10 times the price of a 206.
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It's great performer and load hauler. Glad to see someone else here familiar with them.

Small children in 5 and 6 will not be a problem.

Here's a W&B calculator just to get an idea:

http://www.csgnetwork.com/c206tstationairwbcalc.html
 
Also, the T206 has a service ceiling of 27,000 ft!!

With an IFR ticket and oxygen, it's nice to know you get up into class A for a little while if needed.
 
Sorry, if it doesn't do 3 miles a minute cruise, it's not a qualifier for 'extensive travel' in my book. You need it to get you across the country in a day.
 
Henning said:
Sorry, if it doesn't do 3 miles a minute cruise, it's not a qualifier for 'extensive travel' in my book. You need it to get you across the country in a day.
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What's in your book isn't the issue; it's what's in the OP's book that counts.
 
kkoran said:
What's in your book isn't the issue; it's what's in the OP's book that counts.
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An RON for a family of 6 costs as much or more than what you save over the 421. If the mission is to get the family to a cabin 350 miles away, I'd say ok to a 206. Extensive travel it just doesn't make sense. Where's a family's worth of luggage gonna fit?
 
This is clearly a King Air mission.

I wouldn't put my family of 6 in any airplane that requires an emergency fuel control unit. That eliminates the PC-12 and 208.
 
Henning said:
You need it to get you across the country in a day.
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If you need to get across the country in a day take an airline.

I agree that we need to hear more about what the OP intends. Is the goal to see the country by small airplane or is the goal mainly efficient transportation.
 
Family of 6 = "Are we there yet?", I get as good of a view @180kts as I do at 140.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Unless you buy Ted's Aztec :yesnod: :wink2:
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Good sales pitch! But even my Aztec I'd expect that to be the case with. The advantage it has is that mechanically, it's sound and I've replaced a lot of high-dollar items (and some low-dollar ones).

Example: Your wife doesn't like the paint job. I can't blame her, I don't like it, either! And you decide that you want an Aspen and a Shadin fuel totalizer. You get the idea.
 
Bob Gerace put it well about long distance business and personal travel his T-310-R, "It's a great pilot's airplane; it's plenty capable and pilots love it. Passengers don't though, passengers want pressurization, speed and comfort; passengers want a jet."
 
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How many times per year would the speed issue be a factor? Wouldn't a guy who's planning a family trip be aware of the limitations and plan the legs accordingly? If not, should he be allowed to leave the house unsupervised? Wouldn't the leg/distance planning be significantly difference westbound vs. eastbound? When traveling with a group, trip length will be determined by many factors, the least-important of which is long-range cruise capability.

Insofar as cruise speed is concerned, more is always better than less but it's of little significance when major "seeing the country" trips are involved. Any altitude and airspeed is sufficient escape the speed limits, rush hours, detours, accidents and orange cones.

With the new fabrics, a family of four can pack in the same cubes formerly needed by a family of one. We spent a month in Australia/NZ with one small suitcase. Clothes washed (in the sink) at the end of the day were ready to wear the next morning. Ipads, laptops and DVD players will store in setbacks.

When carried to a logical conclusion, all of these arguments end with the conclusion that all airplane selections include trade-offs, and the buyer gets to decide which are more acceptable.

If you asked a thousand pilots about the importance of being able to fly coast-to-coast in a single day as their selection process, how many would answer in the affirmative?

Henning said:
An RON for a family of 6 costs as much or more than what you save over the 421. If the mission is to get the family to a cabin 350 miles away, I'd say ok to a 206. Extensive travel it just doesn't make sense. Where's a family's worth of luggage gonna fit?
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kkoran said:
I think the question needs a little more definition.

1. What does the OP mean by "... travel the US extensively..."? An extended, one-time, multi-destination trip around the US? Frequent trips to various destinations? An annual trip to a destination 2,000 miles away and numerous shorter ones?

2. How much money is available? All we know is he can't afford a PC-12.
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I'm based out of California and plan to travel to Arizona, Utah, Idaho, Colorado, Washington a lot. And we'd like to do a family sight-seeing trip across the US this summer.

The kids weights are 120, 120, 60 & 40.

I'm looking at airplanes up to $250,000 - depending on the deal and the financing arrangements - I'm still learning about that whole process too.
 
As soon as I finish my checkride (and hopefully pass it) this Tuesday, I plan to immediately start right in with my IFR studies and training. I'm planning to fly solo a lot too - time building. And then there will be lots of weekend trips to the beach with the wife. I've waited so long to get my license, I can't get enough flying. I'm sure you all understand.
 
Oh - and I'm one of those who refuses to fly commercial due to the TSA. I've got nothing to hide but I won't hide my principles. In fact, the TSA is one of the reasons I decided to get my license. I used to fly a lot for business and training. Now I'm going to fly myself. I don't care if it takes a couple days to get across the country.
 
Will the projected cabin loads be similar for all of the trips, or will only the sight-seeing trip include all the chidren? The reason for the question is that a FIKI T-210 might be perfect for trips in the intermountain region, but less so for the family trip. While the kids are small, the back row would be comfortable, but not so much in a few years although my colllege-age girls were quite happy there. The airplanes will carry full fuel (90 gal) plus ~1,000# in the cabin, but very few legs will require full fuel so you can obtain much better performance by flying at lighter weights.

If you plan to fly a lot during the summer, you (and they) will be much happier if you buy a plane with A/C.

PeterDudek said:
I'm based out of California and plan to travel to Arizona, Utah, Idaho, Colorado, Washington a lot. And we'd like to do a family sight-seeing trip across the US this summer.

The kids weights are 120, 120, 60 & 40.

I'm looking at airplanes up to $250,000 - depending on the deal and the financing arrangements - I'm still learning about that whole process too.
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Henning said:
421B $250k for a good one
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I like it. So what's a realistic progression from where I am now to being a safe and capable pilot of a 421B?

I'm ready, willing and able to fly every day building time and getting training.
 
PeterDudek said:
I'm based out of California and plan to travel to Arizona, Utah, Idaho, Colorado, Washington a lot. And we'd like to do a family sight-seeing trip across the US this summer.

The kids weights are 120, 120, 60 & 40.

I'm looking at airplanes up to $250,000 - depending on the deal and the financing arrangements - I'm still learning about that whole process too.
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It's a fun exorcise to run all the stuff you plan to take with you (even the Dog) across the scales and see what your real cabin load will be and then project that down the road 5 years. You'd be suppressed what a rude awakening that may be.
 
And please excuse my "Newbie" ignorance, but the used (even low engine time) 421B's seems like a LOT of airplane for a very low price (generally speaking).

Why is that?
 
PeterDudek said:
And please excuse my "Newbie" ignorance, but the used (even low engine time) 421B's seems like a LOT of airplane for a very low price (generally speaking).

Why is that?
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Because, like most twins, the acquisition cost is the cheap part. It takes a small fortune to operate and maintain them. Especially one like a 421.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Because, like most twins, the acquisition cost is the cheap part. It takes a small fortune to operate and maintain them. Especially one like a 421.
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AHHHHH...so that explains why I saw Lear Jets for less than $200K. The used airplane market is very strange to me. Still trying to make sense of it! lol :rolleyes:
 
PeterDudek said:
I like it. So what's a realistic progression from where I am now to being a safe and capable pilot of a 421B?

I'm ready, willing and able to fly every day building time and getting training.
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Peter, you may want to call a airplane insurance company and see what the minimum requirements for you to fly a 421, Aztec, 310, etc.

You may realize you're years away from flying it without someone qualified in the right seat.

I posted a T206 W&B form for you earlier. I think you'll find your family will "fit" the T206 just fine.

You can actually use it for your IFR training, allowing you to kill two birds..
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
Peter, you may want to call a airplane insurance company and see what the minimum requirements for you to fly a 421, Aztec, 310, etc.

You may realize you're years away from flying it without someone qualified in the right seat.

I posted a T206 W&B form for you earlier. I think you'll find your family will "fit" the T206 just fine.

You can actually use it for your IFR training, allowing you to kill two birds..
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Good idea! Thanks!
 
I can see Ray is trying to be gentle. Let me see if I understand the situation. A student pilot with 100 hours that has yet to take a check ride, wants to take his whole family across the US this summer. He wants an airplane capable of making this trip and other trips mentioned above. A 206 has been mentioned which is quite slow for these kind of trips. You are going to start your instrument training right away. Based on what you have done so far how long do you expect it to take to get your IR?
A couple of questions for the OP. Will being stuck for a few days at different destinations due to weather be OK. Has the wife and kids made any long cross country trips in a small airplane. No potty, no getting up and walking around, hours at altitude in an un pressurised plane. Just asking.
You asked how long before you could be safe and competent in a 421. Not a clue. However I doubt any insurance company will even talk to you with less than 1000 PIC and a couple hundred multi PIC. Even with that it will be expensive.
It is good to have lofty goals. You might want to set your sights just a tad lower. One idea might be to hire an expereinced pilot to fly right seat with you for a few trips after you get your instrument rating. Having an instrument rating and knowing how to fly in IMC are not necessarily the same thing.
I think Ray suggested you talk to some insurance agents to get a feel on what they expect at each level of aircraft. A fresh private in a 6 place retract is going to be a little tough. Anyway, good luck and be safe.
 
PeterDudek said:
I like it. So what's a realistic progression from where I am now to being a safe and capable pilot of a 421B?

I'm ready, willing and able to fly every day building time and getting training.
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After you buy a 421B, best one you can, while set it up the way you want it, you go to Flight Safety for their pt 91 program then hire a pro to fly with you for 50-100hrs/1 year (should be able to salary someone with an MEI and satisfies insurability for +/- $35k w/ per diem on trips) to meet insurability and premiums sense as well as operating skill.
 
This is just an oppinion and I may very well be wrong. If I understand Henning, A fresh MEI rating, sim school, and fly 100 hours with a baby sitter and then get insured. I doubt it. I think they will require a minimum PIC time and a Minimum PIC multi for a pressurised twin. Untill you have reached 1000PIC with at least a couple hundred PIC multi I think it will be hard. I would think 1000 PIC is quite reasonable to jump into a pressurized twin. That is a pretty big jump from a VFR Archer to a pressurized twin, class A airspace and all. JMO.
 
Coverage availability, training, experience and all other elements of insurance underwriting have changed dramatically (most of them favorably) since the market crash of 2008. Pilots are now able to fly pressurized twins with approximately half of the training hours and much less hoop-jumping than before. The underwriters freely admit that they compete in a market-sensitive environment, and their pricing and terms are reflective of market conditions. \\
ronnieh said:
This is just an oppinion and I may very well be wrong. If I understand Henning, A fresh MEI rating, sim school, and fly 100 hours with a baby sitter and then get insured. I doubt it. I think they will require a minimum PIC time and a Minimum PIC multi for a pressurised twin. Untill you have reached 1000PIC with at least a couple hundred PIC multi I think it will be hard. I would think 1000 PIC is quite reasonable to jump into a pressurized twin. That is a pretty big jump from a VFR Archer to a pressurized twin, class A airspace and all. JMO.
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ronnieh said:
This is just an oppinion and I may very well be wrong. If I understand Henning, A fresh MEI rating, sim school, and fly 100 hours with a baby sitter and then get insured. I doubt it. I think they will require a minimum PIC time and a Minimum PIC multi for a pressurised twin. Untill you have reached 1000PIC with at least a couple hundred PIC multi I think it will be hard. I would think 1000 PIC is quite reasonable to jump into a pressurized twin. That is a pretty big jump from a VFR Archer to a pressurized twin, class A airspace and all. JMO.
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And that is exactly why you do the flight safety international course for the 2008, learn to fly it, do the IR at FSI, and lease.
 
100 hrs & 1 year of PIC with an MEI along insured as primary combined with a FS course and you can get insured in a Citation. 100 hrs time in type is a magic number for insurance purposes.

310 is the typical intermediary plane for a 421 transition, but I don't think that's most efficient.
 
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And why it's equally obvious that you have never leased an airplane of this size from Cessna.

Tom-D said:
And that is exactly why you do the flight safety international course for the 2008, learn to fly it, do the IR at FSI, and lease.
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Henning you may very well be right, I don't know. It just seems to me in my expereince that they will want some PIC time in general. It is difficult for me to believe but, you may be right that a new MEI (multi engine instrument) with perhaps 250 TT could get insured PIC solo in a 421 after 100 hours in the make and model. That would be 350 TT with 100 TT ME. Maybe, but I do not think it would be a safe bet. Would you put your wife and kids in the plane with 350 TT and 100 in the 421 or Citation?
You mention a 310 as a transition but remember the OP is going from student pilot to a 421. I just doubt it.
Tom not sure I follow you. Go to FSI for the initial in the 208 with the fresh PPL? I don't think FSI will give you the initial without being instrumented rated. Not sure.
Remember the OP is talking about going from a 100 hour student to a cross country 6 place airplane. I am not sure he is getting solid advice.:dunno:
Edit: I doubt Cessna would even have a conversation with the OP.
 
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The conversation would be very straight-forward, just like those I've had with numerous manufacturers over the years. The list of pilot qualifications would be one of the exhibits, as would the additional insured and loss payable clause requirements of the insurance policy.

A prospective lessee should know is that Cessna finance and all other lessor/lenders will quickly tell you that the days of conventional leases (as we have known them in the past) are over, and that they will structure and characterize the deal as a lease if you want, but the payments and terms will be identical to those of a purchase.

ronnieh said:
Henning you may very well be right, I don't know. It just seems to me in my expereince that they will want some PIC time in general. It is difficult for me to believe but, you may be right that a new MEI (multi engine instrument) with perhaps 250 TT could get insured PIC solo in a 421 after 100 hours in the make and model. That would be 350 TT with 100 TT ME. Maybe, but I do not think it would be a safe bet. Would you put your wife and kids in the plane with 350 TT and 100 in the 421 or Citation?
You mention a 310 as a transition but remember the OP is going from student pilot to a 421. I just doubt it.
Tom not sure I follow you. Go to FSI for the initial in the 208 with the fresh PPL? I don't think FSI will give you the initial without being instrumented rated. Not sure.
Remember the OP is talking about going from a 100 hour student to a cross country 6 place airplane. I am not sure he is getting solid advice.:dunno:
Edit: I doubt Cessna would even have a conversation with the OP.
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