Where/what is WALDP?

Insane said:
On the other hand, they are also not required reading for IFR pilots.
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Yes, they are, by 91.103 if nothing else, not to mention the Instrument-Airplane PTS for those trying to get their instrument rating. Checking for the Triangle-T or looking in Section L of the TP's (either on paper or via the Departure line of the Procedures tab in ForeFlight) before making an IFR departure isn't just a good idea, it's the law.

I believe a little commonsense needs to prevail here. We're talking about Lakefront airport. Those of you who know it know it is one of the easiest airports around. If you head north you are immediately over the lake. If you head south there are only minor obstacles to deal with and the more immediate concern is making sure you stay away from Bravo if you're VFR. We're not talking about departing a place like Aspen here.
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I've seen plenty of airports in the middle of flatlands where an ODP is necessary due to man-made obstructions (and a 2000-foot TV tower can kill you just as dead as Capitol Peak by KASE). Note that there is enough sticking up around the airport from which you departed for the FAA to have produced ODP's off three of the six runways. Please do not fool yourself into thinking that ODP's are only an issue in the Rocky Mountains, lest you become the subject of an NTSB accident report in the Fatal category.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Yes, they are, by 91.103 if nothing else, not to mention the Instrument-Airplane PTS for those trying to get their instrument rating. Checking for the Triangle-T or looking in Section L of the TP's (either on paper or via the Departure line of the Procedures tab in ForeFlight) before making an IFR departure isn't just a good idea, it's the law.
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Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.

You know, even the great Ron Levy is not able to become familiar with ALL available information concerning that flight. :lol: What does "ALL" mean? It surely does not mean every single possible ascertainable fact that could impact your flight.


Sometimes you need to use a little commonsense when interpreting these regulations. You are notorious for having a very special restricted interpretation. Roncachamp provided another conflicting reference to your intepretation that says it is "recommended" and "may" be flown. Not "must".
 
Insane said:
Roncachamp provided another conflicting reference to your intepretation that says it is "recommended" and "may" be flown. Not "must".
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I suppose people can argue about what the word "required" means. But ODPs are instructions to allow you to avoid objects that you can't see, and the controller won't be helping you to avoid. if I am departing IFR from an airport with an ODP, whether it is "required" by the FARs or not is beside the point. In my personal opinion, ODPs are a pretty significant point of information that any IFR pilot needs to review for safe operations.

I am shocked, and a little dismayed, that the FAA written test doesn't devote much attention to this issue while it demands knowing which way to slew a rotating compass card.
 
PPC1052 said:
I suppose people can argue about what the word "required" means. But ODPs are instructions to allow you to avoid objects that you can't see, and the controller won't be helping you to avoid. if I am departing IFR from an airport with an ODP, whether it is "required" by the FARs or not is beside the point. In my personal opinion, ODPs are a pretty significant point of information that any IFR pilot needs to review for safe operations.
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An ODP is "required" if the procedure is included in a departure clearance. If not included in the clearance, and a SID or radar vector has not been assigned, an ODP is an optional but recommended procedure.
 
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Insane said:
Yes, I stand corrected. These are not for VFR pilots. On the other hand, they are also not required reading for IFR pilots. I believe a little commonsense needs to prevail here. We're talking about Lakefront airport. Those of you who know it know it is one of the easiest airports around. If you head north you are immediately over the lake. If you head south there are only minor obstacles to deal with and the more immediate concern is making sure you stay away from Bravo if you're VFR. We're not talking about departing a place like Aspen here.
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Okay, don't read the procedures. Go back to KNEW. Depart on runway 9, 18L or 18R and turn to a heading of about 140. See if you realize why you might have a really bad day if you don't read and follow the departure procedure.

Yes, in that area ATC will likely have radar contact pretty quickly once you're off the ground, and Tower will probably assign a heading. Of course, if it's nighttime the tower will be closed, and if the TRACON is busy handling big iron before you take off, you may not get in touch with them right away to get a safe vector.

Thus, if you don't read the procedure you are putting yourself at risk.
 
Insane said:
Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.

You know, even the great Ron Levy is not able to become familiar with ALL available information concerning that flight. :lol: What does "ALL" mean? It surely does not mean every single possible ascertainable fact that could impact your flight.
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I won't argue with your last sentence, but I guarantee that the FAA will say that failure to familiarize yourself with the information in section L of the Terminal Procedures for the airport from which you are departing under IFR violates that regulation. If you doubt me, feel free to ask any FAA Operations Inspector or the FAA Chief Counsel.

Sometimes you need to use a little commonsense when interpreting these regulations. You are notorious for having a very special restricted interpretation. Roncachamp provided another conflicting reference to your intepretation that says it is "recommended" and "may" be flown. Not "must".
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Actually, sometimes it must be flown, specifically, when a controller includes it in your IFR clearance (and that is definitely legal) -- and roncachamp has agreed on that. Further, even if it was not issued in your clearance, if you fail to follow it and you hit something, the FAA and the plaintiff's attorneys will eat you alive.
 
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Ron Levy said:
I won't argue with your last sentence, but I guarantee that the FAA will say that failure to familiarize yourself with the information in section L of the Terminal Procedures for the airport from which you are departing under IFR violates that regulation. If you doubt me, feel free to ask any FAA Operations Inspector or the FAA Chief Counsel.

Actually, sometimes it must be flown, specifically, when a controller includes it in your IFR clearance (and that is definitely legal) -- and roncachamp has agreed on that. Further, even if it was not issued in your clearance, if you fail to follow it and you hit something, the FAA and the plaintiff's attorneys will eat you alive.
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Were you to hit something, it's more likely they would eat you dead - if they were to be cannibalistic. ;)
 
I think there was a question a few pages back... :) haha

BHM has these gates too: SE9, NE9, NW9, etc. MCO has FMYDT, and a few others I can't recall. My understanding from poking around when I first saw these pop-up on flightaware was that these were Departure Transition Areas or basically TRACON/Center departure gates - uncharted but used by ATC so that they know where handoffs are headed. That understanding was pieced together from several sources, some of which seemed to know what they were talking about. ;)
 
EdFred said:
Were you to hit something, it's more likely they would eat you dead - if they were to be cannibalistic. ;)
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While the FAA rarely goes after pilots post mortem, there's still your estate to consume, at least by the plaintiff's attorneys.
 
MarkZ said:
Guys, I'm pretty sure he's messing with y'all...
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I sure hope so. Otherwise, he's likely to kill himself, and possibly destroy some property, and all of our insurance rates will go up. Hope he doesn't take anyone else with him.

But, we have to reply to this kind of crap lest some instrument student read this and think he's correct.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I sure hope so. Otherwise, he's likely to kill himself, and possibly destroy some property, and all of our insurance rates will go up. Hope he doesn't take anyone else with him.



But, we have to reply to this kind of crap lest some instrument student read this and think he's correct.
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Oh I agree. It's why we have to feed the insanity, there is the off chance a neophyte can mistaken dry humor with good operating practice.
 
Is there ever a situation where (assuming say....a 0-0 departure) where one of these (so-called optional) ODPs are NOT issued in the clearance, where it make be an acceptable risk to take the recommendation as advisory only and not follow it?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Is there ever a situation where (assuming say....a 0-0 departure) where one of these (so-called optional) ODPs are NOT issued in the clearance, where it make be an acceptable risk to take the recommendation as advisory only and not follow it?
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An ODP provides "a way" to depart an airport under IMC safely when obstacles can't be seen but need to be avoided. It is not the "only way". For non certificated part 91 operators, it is not mandatory to fly an ODP. If I was unfamiliar with the airport, it would be the only choice I would consider. If the airport was my home base or I was intimately familiar with the airport, I might chose another safe departure route that I was aware of.
 
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