Where to have a Field Overhaul

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Hendrix

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I am interested in a field overhaul of a Lycoming O-360.

I'm not interested in having a big name shop overhaul, as they're always somewhere around 30k, too much. From what I can tell, a field overhaul engine vs one done at a fancy shop seem to last almost just as long.

So, with that in mind, do you know of anyone within 500nm of NYC area (so that includes areas ranging from Vermont to North Carolina, Long Island to Indiana), essentially anywhere in the Midwest, Northeast and Southeast, that does field overhauls?
 
Maybe you with a certified mechanic. I have major overhauled my IO-520A twice with no problems whatever and not an A&P. My last major with all new cylinder assemblies was about $14,000. These are very simple engines but and not hard to work on but time consuming due to individual cylinders (vs. single block auto engines).
 
Hendrix said:
a field overhaul engine vs one done at a fancy shop
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FYI: any overhaul performed outside the OEM is considered a "field OH" whether by a single AP or fancy chop. So is it you are looking for an independent AP to perform the OH?
Hendrix said:
essentially anywhere in the Midwest, Northeast and Southeast, that does field overhauls?
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As mentioned above, discuss this with your APIA. Depending on your mechanic's experience, he could pull the engine, disassemble it, send out the parts for machine work, and reassemble it. Or some form of this process. This was a common practice back when I worked on engines. If this is the type of OH you're looking for it's worth the discussion with him. You could also be involved directly with the process if you so choose.
 
FWIW, Penn Yan charged me $24K for my O-360-A4M overhaul which included shipping from/to Idaho...
 
Snowmass said:
Maybe you with a certified mechanic. I have major overhauled my IO-520A twice with no problems whatever and not an A&P. My last major with all new cylinder assemblies was about $14,000. These are very simple engines but and not hard to work on but time consuming due to individual cylinders (vs. single block auto engines).
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Can you tell me more about this? Can someone that is not an A&P/IA do an overhaul? What exactly is a "certified mechanic" Thanks!
 
mondtster said:
Im curious how much you are anticipating on saving by not using a name brand shop.
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So far the bigger well known shops are all around 25k and I have a quote from a couple of "smaller" shops for 13.5k
 
Hendrix said:
So far the bigger well known shops are all around 25k and I have a quote from a couple of "smaller" shops for 13.5k
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I would be reviewing the quotes carefully, as I suspect you’re not comparing apples to apples. A comparable engine overhaul will not likely be that much cheaper from an independent than it is from a name brand shop.
 
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Hendrix said:
I am interested in a field overhaul of a Lycoming O-360.

I'm not interested in having a big name shop overhaul, as they're always somewhere around 30k, too much. From what I can tell, a field overhaul engine vs one done at a fancy shop seem to last almost just as long.

So, with that in mind, do you know of anyone within 500nm of NYC area (so that includes areas ranging from Vermont to North Carolina, Long Island to Indiana), essentially anywhere in the Midwest, Northeast and Southeast, that does field overhauls?
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If you are flying 200 hours a year get a quality engine. 50 hours a year, field OH is ok.
 
You get what you pay for. A field overhaul done to the same quality is going to be nearly as expensive. I did my own 0-360 with my IAs oversight and it still cost me a lot of money, but my approach was, if any doubt, replace it, so I could have gotten out cheaper, but In my opinion saving 10-15% on something that important isn’t worth it. I saved over sending it to a big name, and I think I got just as good a job because I was meticulous. I know the documentation is better than any big shop I’ve seen. I have every part number and serial number documented for everything in front of the firewall.

I spent a half a day at one of the big shops watching them work. After that I decided to do it myself. Wasn’t impressed.

ps> it’s a lot of work and stress. Honestly, for most people, not worth it.
 
Hendrix said:
Can you tell me more about this? Can someone that is not an A&P/IA do an overhaul? What exactly is a "certified mechanic" Thanks!
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Airframe and powerplant mechanic, which is an FAA certificate (s). They are blessed with the ability to work on aircraft and sign off the work in the logs. IA is Inspection Authorization, which is a higher rating for an A&P with certain experience.

Legally any A&P can do a field overhaul. But most don't because it's more efficient and less liability to have a specialist do it. But if you find one who is willing to do it with you and sign it off in your logbooks then go for it.
 
Geosync said:
Airframe and powerplant mechanic, which is an FAA certificate (s). They are blessed with the ability to work on aircraft and sign off the work in the logs. IA is Inspection Authorization, which is a higher rating for an A&P with certain experience.

Legally any A&P can do a field overhaul. But most don't because it's more efficient and less liability to have a specialist do it. But if you find one who is willing to do it with you and sign it off in your logbooks then go for it.
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True, but actually, you only need the "P" (power plant) certificate to do the overhaul. Folks that have only the "P" are few and far between these days. There was a guy at my home field that was a "P", no "A", but he has gone West. I "overhauled" my IO-360 several years ago with my A&P/IA. Actually, it was to accomplish an AD for the prop governor idler shaft set screw, which required disassembly of the engine. I pulled the engine and disassembled it. He reassembled the critical portions with me assisting, I completed the reassembly and rehung the engine under his supervision. He did the paperwork. I learned a lot, and the cost was quite a bit less with my labor. He gave the same 2 year warranty as if he did the entire job himself.

My time was not an issue, since I am retired. My A&P/IA and I have been working together on my airplane for 20 years, and he trusts my mechanical skills and experience. A large portion of his business is engine overhauls, and I trust him. Having said all that, I can't answer your question about specific shops in your area. Good luck with your OH.
 
Hendrix said:
So far the bigger well known shops are all around 25k and I have a quote from a couple of "smaller" shops for 13.5k
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Not an engine expert, but my understanding is the difference is likely do you want the engine overhauled to "New" tolerances or to "Serviceable" Tolerances.
The 13.5K Overhaul will not install as many new parts because the part are "used" but "serviceable", the $25K Overhaul (at least the good onces), may still reuse parts that still meet the "new tolerances" but for the most part you are getting an engine meets that same specifications as a "New" Engine vs one that is "Servicable". I suspect it may be bit more complex than that, but that was my understanding from my boss when I did work at an Authorized Repair station (I didn't work on engines), But he said he could overhaul an engine either way for about the cost differnce you suggest.

Brian
 
brcase said:
but for the most part you are getting an engine meets that same specifications as a "New" Engine vs one that is "Servicable".
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FYI: the difference between new tolerances and serviceable tolerances is the differences between a rebuilt engine and an overhauled engine. The difference in cost between large shops and small shops is more related to overhead and margins and not tolerances. Part 43.2 actually describes the requirements.
 
An overhaul for $13,500? What all does that include? o_O
 
Bell206 said:
FYI: the difference between new tolerances and serviceable tolerances is the differences between a rebuilt engine and an overhauled engine. The difference in cost between large shops and small shops is more related to overhead and margins and not tolerances. Part 43.2 actually describes the requirements.
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Makes sense, and a distinction many may not have thought about what the difference is.

Brian
 
RyanB said:
An overhaul for $13,500? What all does that include? o_O
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As a point of reference, I could probably come close to or get the materials and machine work to do a top and bottom end overhaul to new tolerances for that kind of money on an o-320 or o-360. But that wouldn't include any fuel system or ignition component work, or any of the other accessories. It also wouldn't cover any of my labor or the incidental things that should really be replaced when installing an overhauled engine on an airplane.

Whenever I've done a cost analysis on whether to send an engine out or do it myself I've always come to the conclusion that the price ended up so close to the same either way that it really didn't warrant putting the effort and risk into doing the overhaul myself. But I enjoy doing them and believe that the engines I do are every bit as good or better than the big name shops so I continue to do them for myself and a few clients who want me to do their work regardless of the price.
 
idahoflier said:
FWIW, Penn Yan charged me $24K for my O-360-A4M overhaul which included shipping from/to Idaho...
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I had my O-320-E2G done with Penn Yan, including a high compression STC. $19K not too long ago. Turnaround time was great. What you get with a shop like Penn Yan is a good turnaround, a break-in run on a dynamometer and really good warranty support. That is something to consider.
 
Parts are parts, labor is labor, then there is markup on both. If you’re willing to do research, shop carefully, and have a real expert looking over your shoulder, you can reduce the cost of all three. Aviation is not much different from other hobbies and jobs, but the hazard that comes from screwing it up is much higher. Roll your own or pay more.
 
Hendrix said:
I am interested in a field overhaul of a Lycoming O-360.

I'm not interested in having a big name shop overhaul, as they're always somewhere around 30k, too much. From what I can tell, a field overhaul engine vs one done at a fancy shop seem to last almost just as long.
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The big name shops should be $19K to $21K inc,using new cylinders.
 
There is an excellent article in the May 2021 issue of Kitplanes magazine by Paul Dye regarding a DIY overhaul. His all-in costs for the O/H were listed at about $10k (his table lists total cost of about $16k but this included prop work, new propeller governor, and ignition upgrades, but did not include cylinders which he already had. So bottom line minimum parts and machine shop work is about $14k if you are going with new cylinders.

I know that doesn't include any labor but it helps to understand that there is a floor on the cost of an overhaul.
 
bbchien said:
NOT Poplar Grove!
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Must be a story here. They did my Archer's engine and it is still going strong 25 years later. I wasn't the owner at the time though. They just did my mags and were great.
 
I am a committed DIY guy and If do not know how to do something I will learn (I find learning to be the very essence of life). In the past year I have put in two entire house gas systems and a septic system. And remember that work you do for yourself is income tax free. Calculate your savings using Your marginal tax brackets (not average). Here it might be: Fed 35%, state 4 % and SS about 16%. And our new president is committed to raising some of these.
 
What is a typical monetary difference between a service limit vs new limit overhaul? Let me guess, "it depends". Ballpark it for me. What is/are the component(s) that would most significantly open the gap between these two quotes?
 
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hindsight2020 said:
What is a typical monetary difference between a service limit vs new limit overhaul?
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Ballpark, $6000 to $12000 the last time I looked.
hindsight2020 said:
What is/are the component(s) that would most significantly open the gap between these two quotes?
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Crankshaft condition. Plus any "new" version would need all new cylinders.
hindsight2020 said:
They of course proffer a new limits o/h as the "right" answer.
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Of course. But when it comes to the added value of a service limit OH vs new limit OH vs a rebuilt, it varies. The rebuilt is the only one that will give you a zero time engine. There isn't much difference between service limit and new limit from the value side even though one costs more than the other. Best value I've seen is to overhaul the existing engine by a knowledgeable individual who understands the importance and difference in service limits vs new limits as it doesn't necessarily mean one is better than the other.
 
NordicDave said:
The big name shops should be $19K to $21K inc,using new cylinders.
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My Penn Yann O-360 overhaul was about $24K in 2018. I was also considering Winchester Aero (Winchester, VA) as I'd heard good things about them and they were semi-local. They quoted me more like $20K if I recall. But I just Googled them and they seem to be "temporarily" closed. FYI, just remember that when you get quoted $XX for an overhaul, there will be significant additional expense to have the engine removed, re-installed, and all the other firewall-forward work performed. For my Tiger, it was something like an additional $7-8K outside of what Penn Yann charged.
 
Hendrix said:
Can you tell me more about this? Can someone that is not an A&P/IA do an overhaul? What exactly is a "certified mechanic" Thanks!
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It was explained to me that anyone can make an airplane unairworthy. It takes an IA to return it to service.
 
AlleyCat67 said:
My Penn Yann O-360 overhaul was about $24K in 2018.
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Penn Yan is expensive and my opinion over priced. While quoting shops for my O-470R overhaul, they among the most expensive and also the least amount of machining work. Their warranty was sub-par for the cost as well.

Corona Engines out of Corona Ca has good average pricing and a good benchmark for reference. Airmark out of Florida overhauls to new tolerances and frequently a lower price - just see the spectrum.

Pricing page: https://www.coronaengines.com/Engine-Overhaul

LesGawlik said:
It was explained to me that anyone can make an airplane unairworthy. It takes an IA to return it to service.
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Yes, and A&P can overhaul an engine to service limits or new tolerances, but only an IA can fill-out the paperwork for returning to service.
 
NordicDave said:
Yes, and A&P can overhaul an engine to service limits or new tolerances, but only an IA can fill-out the paperwork for returning to service.
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While that may be true for some engines (those that are considered a major repair) they are the minority.
 
NordicDave said:
Penn Yan is expensive and my opinion over priced. While quoting shops for my O-470R overhaul, they among the most expensive and also the least amount of machining work. Their warranty was sub-par for the cost as well.
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That wasn't my experience. They may look a little more expensive, but they also included a new cam, mags and starter. When I included these items in my various quotes they were all within 5% - 8% of each other. Penn Yan was also the only shop that had a three year warranty that I could find...
 
idahoflier said:
That wasn't my experience. They may look a little more expensive, but they also included a new cam, mags and starter. When I included these items in my various quotes they were all within 5% - 8% of each other. Penn Yan was also the only shop that had a three year warranty that I could find...
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I had several quality shops quote the exact same services (new Cam/Lifters/New cylinders/etc), and Penn Yan came back the same price as Bill at Powermasters who is a magician at reworking new cylinders for longevity and power and balancing the engine. Penn Yan will not fully dynamically balance the rotating mass as they stood by the position it’s completely unnecessary. A position Popular Grove holds as well. My money my engine, I wanted it fully balanced including the crank gears.

For less money than Penn Yan I went with Pinnacle Engines who flow matched all cylinders, fully balanced rotating mass, new Superior cylinders, and lots of other work. Including a 3 year or TBO warranty without prorating like Penn Yan.

But this was just my experience. Nothing wrong with Penn Yan. Great company with great reputation. They were near the top end $$$ estimates for my O-470 and not the best fit for what I was seeking.
 
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NordicDave said:
I had several quality shops quote the exact same services (new Cam/Lifters/New cylinders/etc), and Penn Yan came back the same price as Bill at Powermasters who is a magician at reworking new cylinders for longevity and power and balancing the engine. Penn Yan will not fully dynamically balance the rotating mass as they stood by the position it’s completely unnecessary. A position Popular Grove holds as well. My money my engine, I wanted it fully balanced including the crank gears.

For less money than Penn Yan I went with Pinnacle Engines who flow matched all cylinders, fully balanced rotating mass, new Superior cylinders, and lots of other work. Including a 3 year or TBO warranty without prorating like Penn Yan.

But this was just my experience. Nothing wrong with Penn Yan. Great company with great reputation. They were near the top end $$$ estimates for my O-470 and not the best fit for what I was seeking.
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OK, sounds good. I commented because you claimed Penn Yan was overpriced and then referenced Corona's pricing page which wasn't a fair comparison. I don't see any proration in Penn Yan's warranty, but certainly possible I have overlooked it. How much less was Pinnacle than Pen Yann?
 
idahoflier said:
OK, sounds good. I commented because you claimed Penn Yan was overpriced and then referenced Corona's pricing page which wasn't a fair comparison. I don't see any proration in Penn Yan's warranty, but certainly possible I have overlooked it. How much less was Pinnacle than Pen Yann?
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Like-for-like Pinnacle was $3500 less with a full 3 year or TBO warranty, no proration. Pinnacle includes shipping and Penn Yan was ~$800 shipping both ways. So really a $4300 difference. Pinnacle’s Mach V overhaul brought the price closer with Penn Yan, but included a lot more labor for blueprinting the whole engine.
 
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