When will I know I can't make the cut

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Mikey1719

Filing Flight Plan
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May 23, 2015
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Glendale
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mike
i am on my 4th instructor and have had 4 solo endorsements. I have completed 115 hrs and 370 landings. The first instructor screamed at me when I made an incorrect radio call, so he referred me to a friend that was not dependable so I fired him. My third instructor was with our local community college and got a short x-country endorsement with a successful solo but the semester ended before I could solo long x-country. . I am now on my 4th that wants every landing a "10" in adverse conditions such as x-winds at 18 gusting to 23 at a 60 degree angle with dust devils. Very tough but I got each landing down on the ground without any trouble. He says that I have a knack of making a good landing from a bad approach. I'm reaching my 60th birthday and will be going to my second medical next week. Due to my approaches he won't let me go past pattern work. Maneuvers are no problem. I'm worried due to my age, that I won't be able to get my license because there will always be something to criticize and give reason not to sign me off for the check ride. Any thoughts?
 
Mikey1719 said:
i am on my 4th instructor and have had 4 solo endorsements. I have completed 115 hrs and 370 landings. The first instructor screamed at me when I made an incorrect radio call, so he referred me to a friend that was not dependable so I fired him. My third instructor was with our local community college and got a short x-country endorsement with a successful solo but the semester ended before I could solo long x-country. . I am now on my 4th that wants every landing a "10" in adverse conditions such as x-winds at 18 gusting to 23 at a 60 degree angle with dust devils. Very tough but I got each landing down on the ground without any trouble. He says that I have a knack of making a good landing from a bad approach. I'm reaching my 60th birthday and will be going to my second medical next week. Due to my approaches he won't let me go past pattern work. Maneuvers are no problem. I'm worried due to my age, that I won't be able to get my license because there will always be something to criticize and give reason not to sign me off for the check ride. Any thoughts?
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The CFI is having a students fly in 18G23? Seems high.
Really sounds like 1 and 4 are not the best CFI and the
other 2 were just scheduling issues.
Look for one more maybe but don't give up yet
Lots of people go through multiple instructors on the journey. I had 3.
 
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Mikey1719 said:
. Due to my approaches he won't let me go past pattern work.
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Not much you can do about the past instructors, so let's just deal with the current one.


Is he telling you what is wrong with your approaches? Has he given you instruction on how to correct them?
 
You can get the plane on the ground. You will make the cut!

Don't give up...find another CFI is he is not able to help you through your issues.
 
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Welcome to Pilots of America. Sounds like you need to move on to number 5. Don't worry. 60 is not too old. Find someone who will help you understand what he expects.
 
Yes my CFI has given critiques, mainly airspeed and altitude on approach. I end up with strong updrafts or downdrafts or in some cases wind shear, and I have been flying in heavy turbulence with the airspeed indicator fluctuating 15 knots, which makes it hard to get an average airspeed. I understand that he is trying to make me proficient in adverse conditions to make me a safer pilot, but sometimes I get discouraged, because he said that an instructor will always push the student farther then their comfort zone to make progress.

A couple of instructors allowed me to crab on final and clean it up right before flare which I seem to prefer, however my current instructor is requiring me to slip all the way to landing. He says that he wants me to be comfortable with all 4 inputs and correct as necessary. In the slip configuration, I always seem to drift in ground effect when I'm slow and find that I can't give enough aileron with corrective rudder to get it back on center. I get it down well in the flare, but frequently in strong x-wind situations, I end up on the side of the center line instead.
 
Typically the ones that can't make the cut, the ones I have to give the "maybe try golf" speech to, they never get to solo.

I'd say you've just had some crappy instructors, or maybe you're hard to work with, maybe both, hard to say without flying with you.
 
115 hours and 370 landings.... you got me beat on hours, but I spent many, many flights pounding the pavement. Found I could go 1.5 to two hours before my brain became mush.

18G23 is hard flying weather for a student. Up and down drafts on final are pretty normal. At my home airport, which is basically a strip with trees around it, its like being in a roller coaster on final until you drop down below the trees. Then its either perfectly still or its even worse.

What I would suggest is to either re-take the community college course just because you did well with that instructor or get someone else. I finished on my 3rd. First one jumped to the airlines, I fired the second and the 3rd was finally a good fit.

The other suggestion is man up and keep at it. It's about repetition and technique. If you need another 300 landings, you can knock out a 25 of them tomorrow, so get started
 
Never give up! As long as you find a better instructor keep going. It took me longer than average due to one CFI moving to airlines and another retired early due to personal reasons. I didn't solo until 100 hours and finished soon after. Have a heart to heart chat with the chief pilot and flight school owner. Get their unbiased opinion. Now when I fly since passing my checkride 2 years ago my friends call me a great pilot and my landing is good. It took me 95 bad landings before I got it right. Good luck. I'm glad that I did not quit as flying is most fun I have next to sex. A simulator does not compare.
 
Sounds like he's in the desert.

Spring/summer afternoons mean 20-30 knot gusty winds and tons of thermals. It's just the way it is, and not exposing students to that is a bit like telling Denver students they have to land under 2500 MSL, a fairly common restriction at coastal schools.
 
MAKG1 said:
Sounds like he's in the desert.



Spring/summer afternoons mean 20-30 knot gusty winds and tons of thermals. It's just the way it is, and not exposing students to that is a bit like telling Denver students they have to land under 2500 MSL, a fairly common restriction at coastal schools.
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We get a lot of those winds here on the east coast as well.
 
Try practicing some low approaches and make the plane stable as you fly over the runway. It might have just been windy that day but don't be afraid to go around and try to get a better, stabilized approach. It will show your instructor that you are making good decisions.
 
I was in a very similar situation. I have had 4 instructors, 112 hours and over 320 landings when I solo'd. First two instructors left for the regionals, the third would not solo me even though I was safe because he wanted perfection on everything. Literally! He sounds a lot like your current CFI. I finally had to switch after a few months because I would keep flying another 100 hours before he was satisfied. And after 2 flights with the 4th CFI, I solo'd and I have flown solo a few times and completed 2 cross-countries since. I'm planning on doing my check ride in the next 6-8 weeks.

Get a new instructor. And keep switching until you mesh with one.
 
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omg; sounds like you are being milked. You can do it. You ARE doing it.
I would ask around the airport community who is a reasonable CFI, even if it a neighboring airport. Explain the very concerns you have posted here.
 
The only ones who can't make the cut are the ones who quit trying. I've never met anyone who couldn't fly. Heck, the airplane wants to fly all you have to do is nudge it a little.

What's up with your approaches? Forget about what your outcomes are, has your instructor told you what to change to do it right? That would be the instruction part of instructing.

I am a very process oriented person. My first instructor was very outcome oriented. We did not work well together, although I eventually figured it out on my own. Are you in the same situation? Nothing wrong with changing again.
 
Welcome to POA

18 gusting 23 seems a little much for a student. Are all the instructors from the same flight school, same airport?
 
bflynn said:
The only ones who can't make the cut are the ones who quit trying. I've never met anyone who couldn't fly. Heck, the airplane wants to fly all you have to do is nudge it a little.

What's up with your approaches? Forget about what your outcomes are, has your instructor told you what to change to do it right? That would be the instruction part of instructing.

I am a very process oriented person. My first instructor was very outcome oriented. We did not work well together, although I eventually figured it out on my own. Are you in the same situation? Nothing wrong with changing again.
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I wouldn't go that far, I know in this day and age we are all telling our kids they can be anything they want, this isn't true.

I've had to tell 2 people flying wasn't for them, one someone I was instructing, another a friend who I wasn't instructing, but that's out of ALOT of folks.

One of the guys had like 100hrs, between a few CFIs and schools (one a known good school) and handnt soloed.

Fact is if you are well into your solos, you're safe.
 
This seems bizarre. You already have solo'd? But are getting slammed on your landings in adverse conditions? Have you been working on performance T/O and landings? Those conditions you have stated are above what I have EVER done, while in training or after getting my ticket (unless the winds were down the runway). At face value, it seems unreasonable expectations are being placed on your training. Try a different instructor, or a different airport. Where are you flying out of?
 
woodchucker said:
This seems bizarre. You already have solo'd? But are getting slammed on your landings in adverse conditions? Have you been working on performance T/O and landings? Those conditions you have stated are above what I have EVER done, while in training or after getting my ticket (unless the winds were down the runway). At face value, it seems unreasonable expectations are being placed on your training. Try a different instructor, or a different airport. Where are you flying out of?
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I am flying out of KWHP which is a small class D airport under the umbrella of Burbank CA. My first instructor and my present one fly out of KWHP. My other two CFI's flew out of Van Nuys CA, which is the busiest GA airport in the state. Typically my current CFI will have me fly out to FOX field which is in Palmdale CA and in the desert and known for windy conditions. That was the field we started at since I already had almost all of my requirements for the check ride. He wanted me to do low approaches with strong x-winds and turbulence in the pattern at Fox and I failed miserably. So we are working toward that goal.

I like this instructor better than the other three and I know he is just trying to make me a safer pilot. I think I am going to take Scott's advice and have a heart to heart chat with him about what his expectations are and what I can do to meet them.

I got great advice from every response on this post, and I would like to thank each of you. It helped to know that the hours spent and multiple instructors isn't unusual and that my age shouldn't be a factor. This is a great community of pilots and I hope I can give back in some way in the future.
 
Mikey1719 said:
I am flying out of KWHP which is a small class D airport under the umbrella of Burbank CA. My first instructor and my present one fly out of KWHP. My other two CFI's flew out of Van Nuys CA, which is the busiest GA airport in the state. Typically my current CFI will have me fly out to FOX field which is in Palmdale CA and in the desert and known for windy conditions. That was the field we started at since I already had almost all of my requirements for the check ride. He wanted me to do low approaches with strong x-winds and turbulence in the pattern at Fox and I failed miserably. So we are working toward that goal.

I like this instructor better than the other three and I know he is just trying to make me a safer pilot.
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There is a saying about using superior judgement to avoid needing superior skills.

Wanting you to be able to handle x-winds is fine, but I feel he's overdoing it. Flying at Fox this time of year is demanding and as a new pilot in the coastal area, a.better decision would be to leave the plane tied down or carry enough gas to land at an alternate.

There's a reason the Edwards Aero Club nextdoor to Fox lists the lake bed as an alternate on windy days.
 
I learned to fly at KAPV (Apple Valley) which isn't too far away. I also had to deal with crosswinds and gusts, but eventually overcame them (or just flew on calmer days inside my limits). My first long cross country was to Tehachapi which is definitely well known for the wind!

I have also done a couple touch and go's at Fox and Palmdale, but both were relatively calm days. On some of the worst days at Apple Valley, we used the crosswind runways (8 and 26) which was difficult because it was a skinny runway and there was a hill on the end of Rwy 8 :lol:

It was difficult at first but I kept at it, I think you should do the same, perhaps try with another instructor or seek calmer days.
 
I occasionally rent out of Fox, when I'm visiting our remote facility in Palmdale. It isn't THAT bad, and skills really should be accessible to a private pilot.

There is terrain around there, but it's relatively distant from the field (unlike Edwards), and direct crosswinds are quite rare. It's also a real good $100 burger.

Though no one on the Internet can be sure, it sounds like you may be flying the approach "by the numbers." That doesn't work well in winds. I'd suggest learning how to hit the aim point visually. You don't just go to 1500 RPM. You adjust it to what you need to make it. I'd also avoid overflying Apollo Park, as it's the only green thing for miles and you'll get some sink from that. You'll blast right over it with a close in left base for 24.

It may be worth it to take one lesson from another instructor specifically to solve this problem. Fox is a good idea for learning to land in real winds.

As for turbulence, I've been flying instrument approaches at Stockton over the past few weeks, having to work real hard at it. Central Valley airports are like that in spring and summer, and it accounts for half the state.

It's a bit of a drive from Pacoima, but maybe getting one lesson locally from Fox might help. You can bet they know how to teach new pilots local winds, so they get their planes back in one piece. If I remember right, they have a Warrior, 172M, and a 180 HP 172N. Get the crustiest old fart instructor you can find. They have a few. And if you're into aviation history, do ask about the FBO name.
 
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Consider a training outfit that markets "Finish Up" training courses. That's what they do.
I'm a bit older than you and was in a similar circumstance - got frustrated, went to a Finish Up, and was done in three days - they seemed to think I was getting milked. YMMV.
 
Hell, from what you are describing those cfi's would not have singed me off for my checkride. I can not do a 10/10 x-wind landing yet every time. I would also wager few can.
 
Mikey1719 said:
i am on my 4th instructor and have had 4 solo endorsements. I have completed 115 hrs and 370 landings. The first instructor screamed at me when I made an incorrect radio call, so he referred me to a friend that was not dependable so I fired him. My third instructor was with our local community college and got a short x-country endorsement with a successful solo but the semester ended before I could solo long x-country. . I am now on my 4th that wants every landing a "10" in adverse conditions such as x-winds at 18 gusting to 23 at a 60 degree angle with dust devils. Very tough but I got each landing down on the ground without any trouble. He says that I have a knack of making a good landing from a bad approach. I'm reaching my 60th birthday and will be going to my second medical next week. Due to my approaches he won't let me go past pattern work. Maneuvers are no problem. I'm worried due to my age, that I won't be able to get my license because there will always be something to criticize and give reason not to sign me off for the check ride. Any thoughts?
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Just out of curiosity, what are the ages of the 4 instructors?

I don't see it either that you have soloed already and the new guy demands perfect landings. That's almost absurd. I will bring my students up in 28 g23 without hesitation. All I want to see is that they can handle the approach and get it down safely. Airspeed and altitude fluctuations are expected in those conditions.

I would ask around your airport, you need someone more understanding and seasoned. Find someone that you click with that understands you, as much as you understand him. Reliable would be a bonus also.
 
drotto said:
Hell, from what you are describing those cfi's would not have singed me off for my checkride. I can not do a 10/10 x-wind landing yet every time. I would also wager few can.
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Pretty much the same here. I can but it wouldnt be pretty, and I typically wouldnt try if I could avoid it.


I second the "finish up" training. Take a week or two, head somewhere with regular VFR weather, fly all day with a CFI until you're done.
 
I just finished my long cross-country and I would need a few go arounds to nail a 18-23 x wind landing and I would certainly not headout without cfi to attempt it. Do you know when you're approaches are botched? If so just go around even if you know you can safely save it. There is nothing he could really give you a hard time about if you did that.
 
Mikey1719 said:
i am on my 4th instructor and have had 4 solo endorsements. I have completed 115 hrs and 370 landings. The first instructor screamed at me when I made an incorrect radio call, so he referred me to a friend that was not dependable so I fired him. My third instructor was with our local community college and got a short x-country endorsement with a successful solo but the semester ended before I could solo long x-country. . I am now on my 4th that wants every landing a "10" in adverse conditions such as x-winds at 18 gusting to 23 at a 60 degree angle with dust devils. Very tough but I got each landing down on the ground without any trouble. He says that I have a knack of making a good landing from a bad approach. I'm reaching my 60th birthday and will be going to my second medical next week. Due to my approaches he won't let me go past pattern work. Maneuvers are no problem. I'm worried due to my age, that I won't be able to get my license because there will always be something to criticize and give reason not to sign me off for the check ride. Any thoughts?
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Dude, don't waste your time with those guys, you're 60, you don't have to, a QB will take care of you. There is an organization known as Quiet Birdmen, call a working DPE or inspector at the FSDO, and ask for a referral to a QB who is instructing. You just need to get away from idiots is all.
 
There are good barbers and not so good barbers... The ability to teach is a talent that not everyone can master... In my pursuit of my license I had 5 instructors, and since then I've run into more bad ones than good ones... It is not only the instructor, it is your mutual compatibility, just as in any other relationship that will determine a good or bad fit. I have one suggestion that is probably not going to go over very well here... Find a female instructor... I've had more success with them... Not sure why...
 
I'll echo what others have said that you need to shop around for a more compatible CFI. I don't care if they're young or old, male or female, martian or human, but they need to be compatible with YOU. You're paying this person ~$50/hour to TEACH YOU to fly. If you're not making progress, then you're not getting your money's worth out of them.
 
MAKG1 said:
Yeah, but not the dust devils.
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I hit a developing one (didn't see it with dust yet as it was over the threshold) at a nearby airport the first summer after PPL while on final approach went from nose aimed at centerline to nose 90* from centerline in a split second ... that was an instant go-around.

To mike the OP: Fly earlier if you don't like thermals, crosswinds, etc. My CFI threw me into that at the end of training ... all lessons were at 3pm:(. Manuevers in the desert at 100-105+ degrees, with thermals in a C-152 are not fun - landings on a mesa with same conditions and crosswind are also not fun. Except when I can't avoid it on long XC, I do everyhting possible to avoid that time window (3-5pm).

We get massive winds in my area, and there's always going to be someone that says they've landed 75G95 direct crosswind ... I've done my big ones 29G35 direct, but they also have my full attention and I'm ready to bail to another field if it looks too hairy.

I also had a 20G25 that kicked my butt on approach 3 times on a long XC (solo, fuel 1.5 hours, no luggage, basically light as a feather). Every high wind landing is an "approach and look see" just over the runway - if you don't encounter shear that wants to slam you down and the nose holds, then pull the throttle and land ... if at 50 feet you lose 40 of them and get nearly pancaked on the REILs, it's time to bug out:yes:
 
Cross winds are always interesting, especially a direct cross wind. A 29-30 mile an hour direct cross wind will certainly get my attention in a taildragger . This usually includes gusts which are also inclined to make me nervous. If it's a 10-20 degree crosswind not so bad but if it's blowing over twenty I'm staying on the ground. I'm always very skeptical of of those who say these conditions are nothing for them, that they fly in them all the time in a taildragger. It's no fun to be tossed around, head hitting the overhead, etc.
 
Even in a tricycle gear airplane, 20 kts is about my limit for going up to fly for recreational purposes. If it's more than that, chances are the turbulence is going to be at least intermittently moderate. It's just not fun to go up in that, getting whomped around and, like you say, hitting your headset on the ceiling a few times. I'd do it if there was a good reason, I wouldn't delay an important trip to avoid those conditions (unless it was stronger, gusts approaching 30, say), but most of my flying is either just for practice or to go somewhere for fun. Not fun => I'll wait until a better day, thank you.
 
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