When to refuse to do an annual.

Tom-D said:
Like stupid sh-- doesn't happen to the EXP to.
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Of course it does ... but when it does it doesn't cost near as much in dollars or mental anguish. Imagine if you will, much of an entire thread dedicated to which side of a copper spark plug gasket should face the head ... and then searching for a regulation to prove the point ... oh wait! :stirpot:
 
Tom-D said:
How then do you deal with owners that insist on flying unsafe aircraft.

91.3 &.7
The A&P-IA is obligated to sign the maintenance records, SO it falls to 91.3 /7

This is why it so important to know your customer..I'm not beyond telling a customer "I know you" I don't want to deal with you.
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I am a firm believer in the 90/10 rule. 90% of your problems come from 10% of your customers. If its a customer I do not want to do work for my estimate is 10x the cost and wish them a good day.
 
Ron Stowell said:
I am a firm believer in the 90/10 rule. 90% of your problems come from 10% of your customers. If its a customer I do not want to do work for my estimate is 10x the cost and wish them a good day.
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The Goal is to not have any bad customers.
 
Tom-D said:
FAR 43,
(5) Except for progressive inspections, if the aircraft is not approved for return to service because of needed maintenance, noncompliance with applicable specifications, airworthiness directives, or other approved data, the following or a similarly worded statement—“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator.”

Nothing forbids the discrepancies being written in the maintenance records.
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The regulations don't require they be written in the maintenance records, but they do require that the list be provided to the "owner or lessee". I don't give my original maintenance records to anyone and just request stickies for entries. I also have requested several entries for annuals with an unairworthy sign off for various reasons. One time the inspector was going on a three week vacation after he had completed the annual and was not going to be available to fix the discrepancies. Other times, the annual was for a pre-buy and the inspector would not be doing the repairs. In at least one instance, the inspector listed discrepancy items which his shop policy required but were not required by FAA, so these disputed items were signed off by another A&P.
 
John Collins said:
The regulations don't require they be written in the maintenance records, but they do require that the list be provided to the "owner or lessee". I don't give my original maintenance records to anyone and just request stickies for entries. I also have requested several entries for annuals with an unairworthy sign off for various reasons. One time the inspector was going on a three week vacation after he had completed the annual and was not going to be available to fix the discrepancies. Other times, the annual was for a pre-buy and the inspector would not be doing the repairs. In at least one instance, the inspector listed discrepancy items which his shop policy required but were not required by FAA, so these disputed items were signed off by another A&P.
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Why wouldn't you trust a mechanic with your aircraft and not the logs. Seems a bit paranoid to me.
I seldom see an annual that require a unairworthy sign off. My customers want their aircraft repaired, so we wait until it is airworthy.
 
Tom-D said:
Why wouldn't you trust a mechanic with your aircraft and not the logs. Seems a bit paranoid to me.
I seldom see an annual that require a unairworthy sign off. My customers want their aircraft repaired, so we wait until it is airworthy.
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Not paranoid, actual experience with Mechanics who have lost logbooks, mechanics who refuse to return log books because of a dispute. I owned and operated an FBO with a shop. We had to deal with other mechanics at other locations on behalf of customers. I gave you three reasons why I have used the unairworthy sign off in the past. Going on vacation is not paranoid and having to wait until the IA who did the inspection to sign off the annual as airworthy. An annual is an annual, airworthy or not. I just emailed my latest logbooks to my IA, who I trust completely, but he has no need for the physical logbooks. Following the FAR is not paranoid.
 
Tom-D said:
Why wouldn't you trust a mechanic with your aircraft and not the logs. Seems a bit paranoid to me.
I seldom see an annual that require a unairworthy sign off. My customers want their aircraft repaired, so we wait until it is airworthy.
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We must have the log books to do any maintenance especially an annual, even more so if we have never seen the aircraft before. The log books tell us who, what and when has been done to the aircraft and engine.
 
Ron Stowell said:
We must have the log books to do any maintenance especially an annual, even more so if we have never seen the aircraft before. The log books tell us who, what and when has been done to the aircraft and engine.
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If a complete electronic copy of the log books is not suitable for your business, I would choose to not do business with you. I am not a difficult customer and pay my bills on time of delivery. So just like 10% of customers cause 90% of the problems the same is true the other way around for businesses. I have yet to come across a shop that I could not deal with and that wanted my repeat business.
 
I remember another reason that I personally used the unairworthy sign off on my Bonanza. My trusted mechanic moved 140 NM as the crow flies. I still had him come to my airport and do the annual in my hangar, but he and a helper had to drive and stay in a hotel, which I reimbursed him for. He did the annual in one weekend long and we had to order parts. It make more sense for him to sign off the annual as unairworthy and have a local mechanic install the parts and return the aircraft to service than for him to make another 300+ mile round trip to get me back in the air, the next week.
 
John Collins said:
If a complete electronic copy of the log books is not suitable for your business, I would choose to not do business with you. I am not a difficult customer and pay my bills on time of delivery. So just like 10% of customers cause 90% of the problems the same is true the other way around for businesses. I have yet to come across a shop that I could not deal with and that wanted my repeat business.
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You didn't state that you had digital copies, just you would not give your books to anyone. Digital copies are acceptable.
 
Ron Stowell said:
You didn't state that you had digital copies, just you would not give your books to anyone. Digital copies are acceptable.
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Fair enough, I only wrote "I don't give my original maintenance records to anyone", I do give electronic copies as an AI definitely needs access to the logs to perform the annual.
 
John Collins said:
Not paranoid, actual experience with Mechanics who have lost logbooks, mechanics who refuse to return log books because of a dispute.
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I'm not to go there with you, seems you are paranoid of loosing your logs.
Just because some one screwed up doesn't every one is screwed up.
 
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