When to refuse to do an annual.

Bell206 said:
Where? The only thing I told you about your 210 "inspection" was to fill out a 337 and send it to the owner with your comments...o_O
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SEE! why a 337? really stupid now
 
Tom-D said:
SEE! why a 337? really stupid now
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Ha. Let's see... where did I get such a stupid idea... oh yeah now I remember... some mx "guru" would use a 337 to log an aircraft W&B for the aircraft history file... So I wonder what the difference is between his use and mine.:rolleyes:

Tom-D said:
Remember you must file a 337 to get it entered into the history records for the aircraft. This constitutes a change even though it is only for records. a 337 may be entered and it is not a major change, for example a change to Weight and balance maybe entered simply a way to make a permanent record.
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once again you must change the topic to make of it.

but that is always what trips you up.
 
Hey guys, one must remember my last flight in the navy was 1974. Naval Missile center Pt.Mugu.

Bell, probably wasn't out of nickers yet.
 
MuseChaser said:
Are you sure you two aren't married? ;)
.
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funny.
I can't compete with Bell, has built 2 engines, I'm just an old navy Chief with 22 years, 5 pacific cruises, and a lot of flying under my belt.
But I can tell you what a inspection is. with out getting confused and changing the topic.

but he can ask questions :)
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Why a 337? Since when are 337’s used for inspection findings?
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I think he’s taking a shot at Tom. In a similar exchange some time ago Tom said you can use a 337 to enter maintenance into the aircraft records. It was in the context of mechanic does inspection and owner refuses to take log entry and place in records: to the best of my recollection. Regardless of the details which really don’t matter I’m pretty sure Bell is pulling from a previous conversation in an attempt to corner Tom with his own arguments. Toms response was to loudly instruct Bell to get off his lawn.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I think he’s taking a shot at Tom. In a similar exchange some time ago Tom said you can use a 337 to enter maintenance into the aircraft records. It was in the context of mechanic does inspection and owner refuses to take log entry and place in records: to the best of my recollection. Regardless of the details which really don’t matter I’m pretty sure Bell is pulling from a previous conversation in an attempt to corner Tom with his own arguments. Toms response was to loudly instruct Bell to get off his lawn.
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That read kind of like a movie synopsis from imdb. Fun. Not life changing, but worth watching on a rainy afternoon.
 
Tom-D said:
funny.
I can't compete with Bell, has built 2 engines, I'm just an old navy Chief with 22 years, 5 pacific cruises, and a lot of flying under my belt.
But I can tell you what a inspection is. with out getting confused and changing the topic.

but he can ask questions :)
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Thank you for your service. But I don't see how any of that has to do with civilian aviation. I fly planes too, both as a pilot and as a passenger, but that doesn't make me qualified to do any repairs to an aircraft. Lots of people serve on Navy ships, but they aren't qualified to work on planes- maybe nuclear reactors, if they work on that type of ship in the right department.
 
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Bell206 said:
Technically, it would require a write up (by a pilot) if it were considered outside a normal preflight. I don't make the rules, I just have experience in how they are enforced. However, if you believe removing the cowling is part of your preflight that's up to you.
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Pulling the cowling is not on the POH preflight list, so apparently Piper does not think it is part of the preflight. And just for the record, it's only 12 screws, and I don't remove it for every preflight.

Also not on the POH preflight list is pulling the velcroed access into the empennage. But on every preflight I do pull it and with a flashlight inspect the ELT mount and control cables. Does that require a log entry?
 
What a soap opera!

If you want to use your credentials to have an "official" look at an aircraft and provide an opinion, then yes a maintenance entry is needed. Open one inspection panel, then by the letter of the law, maintenance has been performed and a certification is needed. Does it happen all the time without? Yep! Is it legal to the letter of the regs? Nope! Is removing and installing one inspection panel going to cause a problem? 99.99999% of the time, nope. But just ask the guy with the Mooney who had a baggage door come off and jam the elevator that question!

If you are inspecting with your hands in your pockets, "she looks rough to me", then no. No panels opened up, no tools taken to it other than a piece of paper and a pen.
 
Doc Holliday said:
You don't have the ability to declare an aircraft as unairworthy.
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The only person who can declare an aircraft airworthy is the FAA when they take the plane up for the first flight. The annual is all about finding and fixing discrepancies...or not fixing them. The discrepancies are handed to the owner on a separate sheet of paper , and not entered in the logbook other that to be mentioned as a list of discrepancies that was provided to the owner.
 
RussR said:
What always amazed me about this situation is that the list of discrepancies is provided separately, and there is no indication in the logbooks about what the discrepancies are. So the owner is apparently free to just toss the list away, I suppose. I guess there should be at least one entry with some type of repair, but like in your example, if the tires were bad, but also the wing was completely corroded through and the landing gear had cracks (etc.), you could sign off the tires, not do anything else, and as far as the logbook looks, and as far as anyone can tell without asking the IA, you're airworthy. No?
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If there is a statement in the log saying that a list was provided to the owner and the list is not available...well that should alert anyone reading the logs that this missing list is a discrepancy...and of course, where would the Annual Inspection signoff be as well?
 
kauaikarl said:
The only person who can declare an aircraft airworthy is the FAA when they take the plane up for the first flight. The annual is all about finding and fixing discrepancies...or not fixing them. The discrepancies are handed to the owner on a separate sheet of paper , and not entered in the logbook other that to be mentioned as a list of discrepancies that was provided to the owner.
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Wrong.....
I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with an annual inspection as per 14 CFR 43 Appendix D and was determined to be in an airworthy condition.
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In Canada, the annual is treated as any other maintenance. The AME only certifies the work done. And he/she is required to list open discrepancies in the logbook.
 
kauaikarl said:
If there is a statement in the log saying that a list was provided to the owner and the list is not available...well that should alert anyone reading the logs that this missing list is a discrepancy...and of course, where would the Annual Inspection signoff be as well?
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When an A&P, iA does (ie. completes) an annual inspection, he either certifies he found the aircraft in an airworthy condition, or that he found unairworthy discrepancies, a list of which, he provided the owner. The annual inspection is done, complete, and good for one year whether the aircraft is airworthy or not. Before an aircraft is flown however, the pilot/owner/operator has to determine if the aircraft is airworthy. If there are airworthiness concerns, whether found during a preflight or by an A&P IA in the course of completing an annual, they need to be addressed. if you were going flying and found the tires flat, you'd have to fix them. The annual inspection is the FAA requiring another set of eyes to check over the airplane and ensure it conforms to its type certificate or properly altered condition and is in a safe condition to fly.
 
Witmo said:
When an A&P, iA does (ie. completes) an annual inspection, he either certifies he found the aircraft in an airworthy condition, or that he found unairworthy discrepancies, a list of which, he provided the owner. The annual inspection is done, complete, and good for one year whether the aircraft is airworthy or not. Before an aircraft is flown however, the pilot/owner/operator has to determine if the aircraft is airworthy. If there are airworthiness concerns, whether found during a preflight or by an A&P IA in the course of completing an annual, they need to be addressed. if you were going flying and found the tires flat, you'd have to fix them. The annual inspection is the FAA requiring another set of eyes to check over the airplane and ensure it conforms to its type certificate or properly altered condition and is in a safe condition to fly.
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Unless,,, the annual was completed, the aircraft was signed off as "found to need the discrepancies repaired".
the A&P-IA signs the separate sheet of paper, sticker, ?, and then the owner throws the sheet away. and gets another A&P-IA, to annual the aircraft and signs the aircraft airworthy.
That's why Won't sign a annual off unless the maintenance record is complete, no separate sheets.
If necessary we can wait until the repairs are repaired, then do it as airworthy.
 
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FAR 43,
(5) Except for progressive inspections, if the aircraft is not approved for return to service because of needed maintenance, noncompliance with applicable specifications, airworthiness directives, or other approved data, the following or a similarly worded statement—“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator.”

Nothing forbids the discrepancies being written in the maintenance records.
 
Tom-D said:
Unless,,, the annual was completed, the aircraft was signed off as "found to need the discrepancies repaired".
the A&P-IA signs the separate sheet of paper, sticker, ?, and then the owner throws the sheet away. and gets another A&P-IA, to annual the aircraft and signs the aircraft airworthy.
That's why Won't sign a annual off unless the maintenance record is complete, no separate sheets.
If necessary we can wait until the repairs are repaired, then do it as airworthy.
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tenor.gif
 
Tom-D said:
Nothing forbids the discrepancies being written in the maintenance records.
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True. But since the owner is the legal custodian of maintenance records it's his call what goes into those records, not the mechanic's call. And since the regulation plainly states "a signed and dated list of those discrepancies" and not "make an entry in the maintenance record" there is no legal recourse for the mechanic insist otherwise. Same goes if a mechanic were to withhold their signature for the work performed. There is no legal precedent for them to do that either.
 
Bell206 said:
True. But since the owner is the legal custodian of maintenance records it's his call what goes into those records, not the mechanic's call. And since the regulation plainly states "a signed and dated list of those discrepancies" and not "make an entry in the maintenance record" there is no legal recourse for the mechanic insist otherwise. Same goes if a mechanic were to withhold their signature for the work performed. There is no legal precedent for them to do that either.
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How then do you deal with owners that insist on flying unsafe aircraft.

91.3 &.7
The A&P-IA is obligated to sign the maintenance records, SO it falls to 91.3 /7

This is why it so important to know your customer..I'm not beyond telling a customer "I know you" I don't want to deal with you.
 
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Tom-D said:
How then do you deal with owners that insist on flying unsafe aircraft.
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Under what authority? The regulations are very clear on this:

91.7 Civil aircraft airworthiness.
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.

(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.

91.417 Maintenance records.
(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b) of this section:

(1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alteration and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive, and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate, for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. The records must include—
 
Tom-D said:
How then do you deal with owners that insist on flying unsafe aircraft.
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As a mechanic it is not your responsibility to have to deal with the owner on this topic. As stated above it falls on the owner to determine whether the aircraft is safe to fly. But if you feel obligated to do something about the owner your only option is to call the FSDO and convince an ASI to venture out and hang a Condition Notice on it--which is a chore in itself as well.
 
Bell206 said:
As a mechanic it is not your responsibility to have to deal with the owner on this topic. As stated above it falls on the owner to determine whether the aircraft is safe to fly. But if you feel obligated to do something about the owner your only option is to call the FSDO and convince an ASI to venture out and hang a Condition Notice on it--which is a chore in itself as well.
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Tom has that covered............

Tom-D said:
MY PMI at FSDO is a LEO for the federal government, he has the badge, and gun, and he will place a big red sticker over the door seam of your aircraft when he has cause.

But I have never seen him place a "TAG" on any aircraft (he may have, I wouldn't know) he will usually call the owner and have a talk first.
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Bell206 said:
As a mechanic it is not your responsibility to have to deal with the owner on this topic.
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Cop out.
I ask a question.
How then do you deal with owners that insist on flying unsafe aircraft.
 
Tom-D said:
Cop out.
I ask a question.
How then do you deal with owners that insist on flying unsafe aircraft.
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Ask them to take out a million dollar life insurance policy, in which you pay the premium only if they name you as sole beneficiary?
 
Tom-D said:
Cop out.
I ask a question.
How then do you deal with owners that insist on flying unsafe aircraft.
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Freewill. People will do what they want. Best recourse is to cover your own backside. I have shown owners what the regs say and how much they are liable if they choose to ignore an AD or inspection item. They still tear into their 172 as if it were their Chevy and wonder why I get upset when the oil is fresh at annual, but no entry in the log. Seat stops missing. Compass card missing. Who installed that radio with Robertson screws and marretts?

I make sure my work is up to snuff, take pictures and move on.
 
JAWS said:
Freewill. People will do what they want. Best recourse is to cover your own backside. I have shown owners what the regs say and how much they are liable if they choose to ignore an AD or inspection item. They still tear into their 172 as if it were their Chevy and wonder why I get upset when the oil is fresh at annual, but no entry in the log. Seat stops missing. Compass card missing. Who installed that radio with Robertson screws and marretts?

I make sure my work is up to snuff, take pictures and move on.
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Cover your back side with a good work order, and include the "when happens when you pay"
I've seen statements saying they can keep the logs, or they can keep the aircraft.

How legal this is, is a lawyer question.
 
I just signed off an annual.....just in case I croak the paperwork is done. lol :D
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
I just signed off an annual.....just in case I croak the paperwork is done. lol :D
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me too,, I signed off the log a week ago, still waiting for the owner to pick them up.
I just noticed, that is 30 years I've going this aircraft. 1990-
 
Tom-D said:
Nothing forbids the discrepancies being written in the maintenance records.
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As the owner of an aircraft, I determine what goes into the maintenamce record of my aircraft. No where does the FAA require discrepancies be listed in the record so I forbid their entry into my maintenance record, If you don't like not being able to write whatever extra stuff into my records, then don't work on my aircraft.
 
Witmo said:
As the owner of an aircraft, I determine what goes into the maintenamce record of my aircraft. No where does the FAA require discrepancies be listed in the record so I forbid their entry into my maintenance record, If you don't like not being able to write whatever extra stuff into my records, then don't work on my aircraft.
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I have the option of who I work for. Bye-bye find someone else. When you run out of A&Ps who will tolerate your idiocracys call them, not me.
 
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I am an A&P and am happy to make log book entries that meet FAA requirements for logging maintenance without adding information that is not required by regulation. If an owner chooses to fly an aircraft that I've informed him has airworthiness concerns, that's on him and my conscience is clear. You certainly have the option of working for whomever you want to, just like any owner has the option of not hiring a pompous ass to work on his aircraft.
 
You guys sure know how to make experimental aircraft much more appealing ... :p
 
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