When to file ASRS

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If something happens while you're PIC and ATC says something to you about it, should you:
File an ASRS
or
Just confess to the infraction on the radio and leave it alone?

I once made an airspace mistake and then about 10 mins later, ATC said something to me about it. After I landed I debriefed myself and discovered what I needed to do differently.

A few months later, with memory of my mistake in mind I planned for the scenario. WRONG!

I made the same mistake again, this time ATC let me know about 2 mins after I'd done it.

Now, I'm pretty sure I won't make that mistake again

No government agency has ever come knocking on my door, nor have I ever received a letter. I took the #2 approach and just fessed up to ATC and left things alone. How do I know what the threshold of 'getting in trouble' is?
 
It's always best to speak up, in my opinion. A friend of mine and I were talking about something similar a few weeks ago.

He was flying VFR skirting class C, when he realized he inadvertently penetrated it. Instead of ignoring it, he called up approach stating his tail number and what he had done. He was worried that the tower would continue to track him on radar until he landed, when at that point they would call his destination airport and get his tail number. I'm not sure if his worry was legitimate or not, but the whole thing went off without incident.
 
As a general rule (for which I am sure there are exceptions) if you confess to ATC and you don't get a number to call, you are good to go....

-Skip
 
After reading your post a second time, my story doesn't pertain to it as much as I thought.

I will leave it up though.
 
CBeaulieu said:
It's always best to speak up, in my opinion. A friend of mine and I were talking about something similar a few weeks ago.

He was flying VFR skirting class C, when he realized he inadvertently penetrated it. Instead of ignoring it, he called up approach stating his tail number and what he had done. He was worried that the tower would continue to track him on radar until he landed, when at that point they would call his destination airport and get his tail number. I'm not sure if his worry was legitimate or not, but the whole thing went off without incident.
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I wouldn't. If they did in fact track me down, I would beg forgiveness at that time. Don't feed them ammunition.
 
Unregistered said:
If something happens while you're PIC and ATC says something to you about it, should you:
File an ASRS
or
Just confess to the infraction on the radio and leave it alone?

I once made an airspace mistake and then about 10 mins later, ATC said something to me about it. After I landed I debriefed myself and discovered what I needed to do differently.

A few months later, with memory of my mistake in mind I planned for the scenario. WRONG!

I made the same mistake again, this time ATC let me know about 2 mins after I'd done it.

Now, I'm pretty sure I won't make that mistake again

No government agency has ever come knocking on my door, nor have I ever received a letter. I took the #2 approach and just fessed up to ATC and left things alone. How do I know what the threshold of 'getting in trouble' is?
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Kind of depends on the nature of the mistake. We all screw up from time to time in minor ways and most of us have had ATC ***** us out about something at one time or another. Busting bravo is a bigger deal than not turning to quite the right heading ATC told you to turn.
 
If I controlled the Internet, I would eliminate all smilies. That would require someone to type "User XXXX just made a controversial post. I wonder who will will be the first to tear him a new one."

Vs. "munch popcorn"

(Not a shot at you Jaybird, just sayin' in general)
 
If you have the remotest doubt, file the ASRS; there is no down-side to it, it might help you if a consequence does pop up, and it may very well help another pilot avoid a similar fate down the road.

No down-side, the way I see it.
 
I think it's best to say you're sorry... THEN file an ASRS report within ten days. That should protect you against the sanction (at least the first time) if they do pursue an enforcement action.
 
The only downside is that once you've played that card....
 
'Fess up and fix it. That's Safety culture. If FAA wants to turn it from Safety to witch-hunt that's their decision. It makes them look bad, not you. You already goofed. Past-tense.

And just file the ASRS form anyway. That database is used (supposedly) to find and alleviate Safety issues that keep coming up. Like all databases/ticket systems, the more reports of something commonly going wrong, the more likelihood it'll be fixed.

Databases and ticket systems tend to turn off the brains of the people using them, they run reports and those become more important than the words contained therein.

It is a Safety reporting system, the "get out of jail free card" aspect is just a carrot to get people to USE it. So use it.
 
Sac Arrow said:
The only downside is that once you've played that card....
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You only "play the card" if you need it; you can (and should) file as many ASRS reports as you deem appropriate. The system is there to encourage pilots to report issues, so the common ones can be spotted and addressed.
 
SCCutler said:
If you have the remotest doubt, file the ASRS; there is no down-side to it, it might help you if a consequence does pop up, and it may very well help another pilot avoid a similar fate down the road.

No down-side, the way I see it.
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How do I as a pilot see the boo-boos of other pilots?
 
Sac Arrow said:
If I controlled the Internet, I would eliminate all smilies. That would require someone to type "User XXXX just made a controversial post. I wonder who will will be the first to tear him a new one."

Vs. "munch popcorn"

(Not a shot at you Jaybird, just sayin' in general)
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Did PoA recently become a nicer place to be?......I don't like it:rofl:

Seriously, I do it when I wish to follow a thread but don't have anything worthwhile to contribute. Beats lurking....at least it's known that I'm still active....ya know being sociable and all that.
 
Well, generally no one is dead in an ASRS report! Sometimes valuable insights, sometimes just amusing... "In hindsight, I should really have made position calls on CTAF", etc.
 
NTSB reports cover the screw-ups that led to death or significant property damage.

ASRS reports are stuff that could have. :)

Or is that... :(
 
Sadly, NASA no longer enters all ASRS filings into the database. They only enter those that happen to match the flavor of the day. This change is driving the statisticians, nuts.They do save/file the forms they receive, for possible/future review.

Why? Funding (lack of).
 
rainsux said:
Sadly, NASA no longer enters all ASRS filings into the database. They only enter those that happen to match the flavor of the day. This change is driving the statisticians, nuts.They do save/file the forms they receive, for possible/future review.

Why? Funding (lack of).
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If true, this really sucks.
 
It's really two separate subjects, the intent of the ASRS form is not to be a get out of jail free card, it's meant to input these events into a database to look for safety issue trends and solutions. The whole get out of jail free issue was so that people who hadn't gotten in trouble for something they knew was hazardous or a mistake they made to not fear getting in trouble later for adding the information.

If you get in trouble with ATC at the occurrence, I don't think an ASRS saves you from that.
Personally if I screw up I Let ATC know immediately, if ATC calls me for screwing up, I'm conscilliatory. I have screwed up my share for sure and never had a letter or given a number to call either.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Kind of depends on the nature of the mistake. We all screw up from time to time in minor ways and most of us have had ATC ***** us out about something at one time or another. Busting bravo is a bigger deal than not turning to quite the right heading ATC told you to turn.
Click to expand...

On my last class B incursion, I was not in contact with ATC, so I just descended back out of it and filed an ASRS report. I see no upside to drawing the attention of FAA personnel to my errors if they don't contact me about them.
 
Sac Arrow said:
If I controlled the Internet, I would eliminate all smilies. That would require someone to type "User XXXX just made a controversial post. I wonder who will will be the first to tear him a new one."

Vs. "munch popcorn"

(Not a shot at you Jaybird, just sayin' in general)
Click to expand...

Hey, I LIKE the popcorn emoticon!
 
Sac Arrow said:
The only downside is that once you've played that card....
Click to expand...

No. You can file as many times as you want. The only time it becomes an issue is if the FAA DOES come after you. And THEN, it is "Once you've played that card..."

There really is no downside.
 
I was flying out of KHWO one day and heard the controller inform a pilot that just landed that Miami Approach tagged his transponder for violating the Class B and gave him a phone number to call.

My view is that my mistakes are mine, I will own up to them and be forward about them. I've not had any need to file an ASRS yet, and hopefully never will, but I won't think twice about it. I'd rather someone learn from my mistake than repeat it.
 
As far as ASRS feeback goes, they put out a newsletter "Callback" monthly that goes over a theme of recently submitted reports which you can subscribe to. Sometimes it's more relevant for big iron guys, sometimes I'm sure they roll their eyes at our antics. It takes all of 10 minutes to read and gives you a chance to reflect on how the situations enter into your flying.

It seems like a good system in intent. It's just a shame it's always in a CYA context on message boards. I'm sure they can see that in the kinds of reports they get.
 
I can see a scenario where you acknowledge your error, apologize, all seems OK, you do not get a number to call, then a letter from the FAA shows up.

How plausible is that scenario?

A couple years ago I had a runway incursion at an unfamiliar airport because I did not notice that they had painted the hold short line far back from where I thought it would be. I was looking for it and had already rolled over it while distracted with something else. Ground came on with an insistent "Nxxx, TURN AROUND". I apologized and, after a pause, Ground said I was not the first. I figured that was the end of it and it was but I did not write a report. Should have, though.
 
alfadog said:
I can see a scenario where you acknowledge your error, apologize, all seems OK, you do not get a number to call, then a letter from the FAA shows up.
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Very unlikely.

2-1-26. PILOT DEVIATION NOTIFICATION ​
When it appears that the actions of a pilot constitute a pilot deviation, notify the pilot, workload permitting.
PHRASEOLOGY-
(Identification) POSSIBLE PILOT DEVIATION ADVISE YOU CONTACT (facility) AT (telephone number).
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While it's possible that due to controller workload at the time, a PD could be filed without that notification to the pilot involved, if they took the time to tell you about your error and had the time to listen to your acknowledgement and apology, it's not likely they wouldn't have the time to give you that notification but would still file a PD report with the FSDO.

A couple years ago I had a runway incursion at an unfamiliar airport because I did not notice that they had painted the hold short line far back from where I thought it would be. I was looking for it and had already rolled over it while distracted with something else. Ground came on with an insistent "Nxxx, TURN AROUND". I apologized and, after a pause, Ground said I was not the first. I figured that was the end of it and it was but I did not write a report. Should have, though.
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Yes, you should have. If nothing else, it might point out the issue of that line's location (and clearly it was an issue, given "[you were] not the first"), and if the FAA were pushed on the matter (say, by an anonymized ASRS report forwarded to the cognizant FAA office), they might recognize the problem and install better marking so it doesn't happen again.
 
Ron Levy said:
Yes, you should have. If nothing else, it might point out the issue of that line's location (and clearly it was an issue, given "[you were] not the first"), and if the FAA were pushed on the matter (say, by an anonymized ASRS report forwarded to the cognizant FAA office), they might recognize the problem and install better marking so it doesn't happen again.
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I should have seen it. My only excuse is this was relatively soon after I started flying again and it was not what I was used to seeing. I also was not familiar with the self-reporting system at that time.

edit: I expected it to be in the necked-down area so that is what I was focused on and rolled right over it. That is what assumin' gets ya.

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Vs.

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alfadog said:
My only excuse is this was relatively soon after I started flying again and it was not what I was used to seeing.
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Whoever gave you your flight review to get flying again should have hit airport marking, signage, and lighting pretty hard, as those are on the FAA's "Special Interest Items" list. That's become something I check with every new trainee regardless of what training they're receiving, or their entering experience, recent or otherwise. The FAA is working very hard to reduce runway incursions, and making sure all pilots understand and correctly interpret signs, markings, and lighting is an important part of that process.

Here are some good review and training materials:
http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_..._Guide_to_Airport_Signs_and_Markings_2011.pdf
http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/flashcards/RWcards_lo.pdf
 
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Ron Levy said:
Whoever gave you your flight review to get flying again should have hit airport marking, signage, and lighting pretty hard, as those are on the FAA's "Special Interest Items" list. That's become something I check with every new trainee regardless of what training they're receiving, or their entering experience, recent or otherwise. The FAA is working very hard to reduce runway incursions, and making sure all pilots understand and correctly interpret signs, markings, and lighting is an important part of that process.

Here are some good review and training materials:
http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_..._Guide_to_Airport_Signs_and_Markings_2011.pdf
http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/flashcards/RWcards_lo.pdf
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Thanks. Yes, I have done a lot of review since then and have video(s) on runway markings that I have watched.

By not what I was used to, I meant the position of the line. I had assumed it would be in a certain area and so was not paying attention to where it ended up being.
 
On the ILS critical area, to be honest I didn't know it was an automatic hold at 800/2. I have always been told specifically where they want me to hold. Seems like a formula for a problem just because we are all used to specific instructions for hold short requests.
 
Alexb2000 said:
On the ILS critical area, to be honest I didn't know it was an automatic hold at 800/2. I have always been told specifically where they want me to hold. Seems like a formula for a problem just because we are all used to specific instructions for hold short requests.
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At a tower-controlled airport, the ground controller should tell you to hold there when the weather is below 800-2 and someone's on the ILS -- that's their responsibility.

At a nontowered airport, if you've received your release, it's a pretty safe assumption that nobody's on the ILS, so you don't have to worry about it. If you don't have your release, it would be prudent to make it "standard" for you to hold at the ILS hold line (if there is one) in case the reason for your "hold for release" is on final for the ILS. You're not going anywhere until they land or cancel anyway, so it's no big deal for you to wait there.
 
alfadog said:
By not what I was used to, I meant the position of the line. I had assumed it would be in a certain area and so was not paying attention to where it ended up being.
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KOWD is another airport where you have to be quite careful for Runway 35. The taxiway angles in to the runway after a certain point - the hold short line is before it starts to angle in. If you're not careful you'll bust it.

I've seen it happen at OWD a couple of times - one time it was a turboprop that busted the hold-short.

The line is NOT depicted on the NACO airport diagram.
 
Ron Levy said:
Whoever gave you your flight review to get flying again should have hit airport marking, signage, and lighting pretty hard, as those are on the FAA's "Special Interest Items" list. That's become something I check with every new trainee regardless of what training they're receiving, or their entering experience, recent or otherwise. The FAA is working very hard to reduce runway incursions, and making sure all pilots understand and correctly interpret signs, markings, and lighting is an important part of that process.

Here are some good review and training materials:
http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_..._Guide_to_Airport_Signs_and_Markings_2011.pdf
http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/flashcards/RWcards_lo.pdf
Click to expand...

Runway Incursion prevention is in the new PTS for Private and Commercial. According to the FAASafety email I recieved, CFI's are to be familiar with the new information in the updated handbook and review incursion prevention with the trainee.
 
seand said:
As far as ASRS feeback goes, they put out a newsletter "Callback" monthly that goes over a theme of recently submitted reports which you can subscribe to. Sometimes it's more relevant for big iron guys, sometimes I'm sure they roll their eyes at our antics. It takes all of 10 minutes to read and gives you a chance to reflect on how the situations enter into your flying.

It seems like a good system in intent. It's just a shame it's always in a CYA context on message boards. I'm sure they can see that in the kinds of reports they get.
Click to expand...

It's a great publication. One can subscribe (it's a free email publication) and read back issues at http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/callback.html
 
What, you mean "ASRS... filed" isn't a standard item on your post-shutdown checklist?
 
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