When to file ASRS

[Palmpilot]

I filed one last night for a recent night flight. The controller didn't say the words "possible pilot deviation," but we did have some conversation about the difficulty of holding heading while attempting to program the GPS.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

During one of my very first flights to a "big" airport - class C - after I got my cert, I made a mistake. Later I found out through a pro pilot that Monterey has a lot of lines (so it was not "just me") - instead of a long, parallel taxiway with grass in between the taxiway and the runway they just have many different lines to mark the shoulders etc. Most of the areas are paved.

There were no other planes on the frequency and in fact there was no traffic at all that day - not even one single plane - it was New Year's Day.

The controllers gave me the instructions to taxi all the way down to the other side of the airport, in order to take off on the jet runway - more than 8,000 feet away from my FBO if I remember correctly.

During my very long taxi to this runway, the ground controller came onto the frequency and said to me "the centerline is to your left" or something like that. I moved the plane over one line and kept taxi'ing forward towards the runway. I apologized. Next, he came on again and said the same thing - again. I moved - again! And then he said "those lines are hard, huh?"

That sounded silly so I said to him on the frequency "but I thought you were supposed to be one of the easiest class charlie airports, with parallel taxiways." Then he said, "WE ARE." You could almost imagine their giggles.

Here is a sattelite view of that taxiway:

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Forgot to mention I was in the 152. I later found out (from the same pro pilot) that I could have asked for a takeoff, on that same runway, at one of the earlier intersections. This was not something I learned in my training - and will definitely save me time and money in the future. I am still not sure why they didn't offer me the smaller GA runway that day. Perhaps they were bored. As mentioned, nobody was flying through the area that I could see or hear. In hindsight I guess I could have asked them for the other runway.... which is the one they had cleared me on to land earlier that morning when I arrived.

 

[denverpilot]

Forgot to mention I was in the 152. I later found out (from the same pro pilot) that I could have asked for a takeoff, on that same runway, at one of the earlier intersections. This was not something I learned in my training - and will definitely save me time and money in the future. I am still not sure why they didn't offer me the smaller GA runway that day. Perhaps they were bored. As mentioned, nobody was flying through the area that I could see or hear. In hindsight I guess I could have asked them for the other runway.... which is the one they had cleared me on to land earlier that morning when I arrived.

They'll typically start with the longest runway into the wind, and it'll be on the ATIS. Full-length.

If you want something else, you have to ask. They can say yes or no, depending on other traffic and factors.

If you depart with less than full length they will have to say so on the air so it is recorded on the tapes for any possible accident investigation if you do it wrong.

Ronachamp can fix this if it's not correct phraseology, but say you've asked to depart at Alpha 14 in this diagram below...

"Cessna Seven Niner Mike, cleared for takeoff, intersection departure, Alpha 14." is the minimum they're required to say. I've also heard some controllers add "X feet remaining" where X is the number of feet left on that runway for takeoff from that intersection. I assume that's a courtesy or a big hint that it's SHORT from a little placard somewhere in front of them in the tower cab. (Plus, they'll have it memorized.)

It's NOT meant to be confirmation that what you've requested is a good idea for your aircraft or even possible, only that it meets THEIR requirements and they don't think you're completely nuts.

It's still on you as PIC to know there's adequate runway for takeoff and also knowing where you are going to go if the engine quits now that you threw away a few thousand feet of runway.

Which of course also changes your takeoff briefing to yourself and/or the whole crew if you're PIC but have other pilots on board, and your TOLD (Takeoff and Landing Data) you previously worked out.

I typically won't accept an intersection departure at an unfamiliar airport. It's an extra card stacked against you if the engine quits. If the intersection chops off only a small fraction of the runway, okay. Not thousands of feet. Better to have that runway ahead as an option for an engine out.

However, I have accepted and done the math for the Alpha 14 at KAPA when it's cold out.

Two reasons, usually I'm doing it to get out ahead of a jet that's taxiing ahead of me down to go full-length, and I know there is a golf course/driving range directly off the north end of 35R. I have at least one option, sucky as it may be.

At the end of the day though, the NTSB report will include that I accepted the risk and lost, if I end up in the golf range... And I will be angry at myself for accepting he Alpha 14 departure. Rationalization won't change the additional risk incurred.

I will not ask for Alpha 14 with passengers. It's my Jon to lower the risks for them and they have no idea that I'm adding risk.

Flip side... I will accept and ask for Runway 10 if winds are light. It's slightly riskier than 35R because it's downhill and there's a berm off the end you have to clear to get to an open field.

Lots of decisions, us pilots. Just sharing my thought process for you. You get to make your own!

Cool, isn't it?

 

[Alexb2000]

One thing on this that I feel is important to keep in mind. When an airport is busy and you have people holding at intersections and full length many times pilots will just call up and say Nxxx ready to go 15, or something similar. I ALWAYS make sure I tell the tower Nxxx holding number 1 at (intersection letter) or full length depending. When cleared I read back Nxxx at (intersection or full length) cleared for takeoff runway X.

I say this because there have been some near miss accidents recently where an aircraft was cleared to line up and wait at an intersection, while someone was rolling full length. Tower didn't catch it and the pilot didn't announce their position. Just good SOP for the days they're pushing em out.

Discussed before, but worth a reminder. Here is one such incident if anyones curious:

http://tinyurl.com/ylnx3f2

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Thought about this some more, and even though a 150 doesn't need 8,000 feet of runway to takeoff, you guys are right. If something happened to my engine on takeoff it sure would be nice to land on the remaining runway. And it would be easier to abort a takeoff too if needed.

 

[wsuffa]

They'll typically start with the longest runway into the wind, and it'll be on the ATIS. Full-length.

Typical but not always. KNEW used to assign an intersection takeoff for piston aircraft leaving Millionair. (I haven't been in there since Katrina - they may still do it). If you wanted the whole enchilada you needed to make a request.

If you want something else, you have to ask. They can say yes or no, depending on other traffic and factors.

If you depart with less than full length they will have to say so on the air so it is recorded on the tapes for any possible accident investigation if you do it wrong.

Ronachamp can fix this if it's not correct phraseology, but say you've asked to depart at Alpha 14 in this diagram below...

"Cessna Seven Niner Mike, cleared for takeoff, intersection departure, Alpha 14." is the minimum they're required to say. I've also heard some controllers add "X feet remaining" where X is the number of feet left on that runway for takeoff from that intersection. I assume that's a courtesy or a big hint that it's SHORT from a little placard somewhere in front of them in the tower cab. (Plus, they'll have it memorized.)

It's NOT meant to be confirmation that what you've requested is a good idea for your aircraft or even possible, only that it meets THEIR requirements and they don't think you're completely nuts.

It's still on you as PIC to know there's adequate runway for takeoff and also knowing where you are going to go if the engine quits now that you threw away a few thousand feet of runway.

Which of course also changes your takeoff briefing to yourself and/or the whole crew if you're PIC but have other pilots on board, and your TOLD (Takeoff and Landing Data) you previously worked out.

I typically won't accept an intersection departure at an unfamiliar airport. It's an extra card stacked against you if the engine quits. If the intersection chops off only a small fraction of the runway, okay. Not thousands of feet. Better to have that runway ahead as an option for an engine out.

However, I have accepted and done the math for the Alpha 14 at KAPA when it's cold out.

Two reasons, usually I'm doing it to get out ahead of a jet that's taxiing ahead of me down to go full-length, and I know there is a golf course/driving range directly off the north end of 35R. I have at least one option, sucky as it may be.

At the end of the day though, the NTSB report will include that I accepted the risk and lost, if I end up in the golf range... And I will be angry at myself for accepting he Alpha 14 departure. Rationalization won't change the additional risk incurred.

I will not ask for Alpha 14 with passengers. It's my Jon to lower the risks for them and they have no idea that I'm adding risk.

Flip side... I will accept and ask for Runway 10 if winds are light. It's slightly riskier than 35R because it's downhill and there's a berm off the end you have to clear to get to an open field.

Lots of decisions, us pilots. Just sharing my thought process for you. You get to make your own!

Cool, isn't it?

Depending on the circumstances, I personally have no issue with an intersection takeoff on an unfamiliar field. I've gladly accepted them at KNEW, KCLT, and KCMH (and a couple of others). It helps to get you out faster, and assuming a large carrier airport, it still gives you far, far more runway than you get at home. I've even requested, and been granted, downwind runway takeoffs where doing so would speed my departure and reduce complexity for controllers. You gotta know your performance specs.

However, if the weather is way down (IFR mins) or other risk factors apply, I'll ask for the whole runway.

 

[denverpilot]

Typical but not always. KNEW used to assign an intersection takeoff for piston aircraft leaving Millionair. (I haven't been in there since Katrina - they may still do it). If you wanted the whole enchilada you needed to make a request..

Here they seem to always ask, "Cessna 79M can you accept an intersection takeoff, Alpha [whatever]', X number of feet remaining?", if they want to initiate an intersection takeoff.

Otherwise, we have to ask.

The request usually comes from a voice or three I've heard before. The old-hands in our tower. Almost never the trainees or "new" voices. The vets know tail numbers and know who'll usually accept and who won't/can't. They use it to their advantage for traffic flow.

Usually it's because they see there's room to get you out before an arriving jet if you turn there and launch.

Remember also that we have a continuous...

"Special Procedure in effect... All aircraft notify the Ground controller 1) Direction of flight, and 2) Whether or not run-up is complete prior to taxi. All aircraft 3) notify Ground when ready for departure." on our ATIS. (I added the numbers to highlight the required items for Ground here.)

They put those aircraft that are run-up complete on the flight strip and hand it to the Local/Tower controller. You're on Ground until they instruct you to "MONITOR Tower now, 118.9".

They won't offer it to you if you haven't notified Ground you're ready to go and accept it. Next will be... The MONITOR call and you flip over without transmitting.

The next transmission is usually the Tower saying "Cessna Seven Niner Mike...cleared for takeoff, Runway 35 Right, intersection departure Alpha X, no delay. Traffic is a Citation Jet on a five mile final, after departure, right turn southeast-bound approved".

Your reply means you've got the runway. If for some reason you went to the wrong frequency, they'll usually call once and then announce in the blind, "Cessna Seven Niner Mike, cancle takeoff clearance, hold short of Runway 35 Right." until you or they figure out where you went.

It works pretty well. Every once in a while they misjudge or the landing traffic is fast and they'll just start with the hold-short call. And of course, that's a required read back including the "Right" designation.

That's the biggest mistake unfamiliar pilots make at KAPA. They say, "Holding short, Runway 35" and the controller has to tell them on-air that they need them to say "35 *Right*" in response to the hold-short clearance. There's "35 Left" and "35 Right"... there is no "Runway 35". It doesn't exist.

Our intrepid controllers on the PoA board here will have to say if any of the above is newly required phraseology on their side of the mic or not. I don't know. Could just be a local thing.

Seems to work well under heavy traffic loads.

 

[wsuffa]

Here's the taxi diagram for KNEW:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1206/00288AD.PDF

The times I've been in there, if the 18's were in use, a piston plane would usually get "Taxi to Runway 18R via alpha, hold short at Quebec for intersection takeoff" They may or may not have offered the runway length.

 

[poadeleted20]

One thing on this that I feel is important to keep in mind. When an airport is busy and you have people holding at intersections and full length many times pilots will just call up and say Nxxx ready to go 15, or something similar. I ALWAYS make sure I tell the tower Nxxx holding number 1 at (intersection letter) or full length depending. When cleared I read back Nxxx at (intersection or full length) cleared for takeoff runway X.

That's a real good practice, and it helps keep the controller from making a really bad mistake.

I say this because there have been some near miss accidents recently where an aircraft was cleared to line up and wait at an intersection, while someone was rolling full length. Tower didn't catch it and the pilot didn't announce their position. Just good SOP for the days they're pushing em out.

The one in Sarasota wasn't a miss -- four dead. See NTSB MIA00FA103B.

 

[denverpilot]

Here's the taxi diagram for KNEW:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1206/00288AD.PDF

The times I've been in there, if the 18's were in use, a piston plane would usually get "Taxi to Runway 18R via alpha, hold short at Quebec for intersection takeoff" They may or may not have offered the runway length.

Interesting. I see why, due to the layout.

Kinda looks like engine-out, you're screwed both directions, eh? Haha.

 

[Rigged4Flight]

The only downside is that once you've played that card....

No. You can file as many times as you want. The only time it becomes an issue is if the FAA DOES come after you. And THEN, it is "Once you've played that card..."

There really is no downside.

The get out of jail benefit is once every 5 years, I believe, as long as they aren't coming at you for something deliberate or criminal, and you file the report within 10 days of the incident.