When to buy your own plane?

JCranford said:
Whaaat? For $4000 a month he wont be able to own and operate a cross country capable airplane? I'll go ahead and throw the BS flag on that.
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Yea I read that and was like whatttt???
 
tspear said:
Nice plane and panel. I have a soft spot for radials. Never owned won, I doubt I ever will, but I love them.
Anyway, Hypoxia protection cannot currently be retrofit, when you do not make any inputs for a defined period (I believe ten minutes), the plane using GPS and the AP will descend to 12K (I think that is the correct altitude, I am not positive). There are other examples.
But anyway, I digress, my basic point is that there some features/aspects on a new plane which cannot be matched on an old one. Some people place a value on this, others not only place a value on it, actually have the cash to make it happen.

Tim
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I was thinking about putting a bug on a altitude, but if frankly that's not enough.. it's silly, not even the multi million dollar turbine I fly auto dives, mainly because with a crew who knows how to fly its more of a hazard than a feature



Side note my iPad/iPhone with foreflight even alerts me of cabin altitude, and that can be carried over to any aircraft.

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JCranford said:
Whaaat? For $4000 a month he wont be able to own and operate a cross country capable airplane? I'll go ahead and throw the BS flag on that.
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My turn to call BS.

He's flying a 2015 Cirrus with a G1000 panel. Show us how he gets to own, operate and maintain a comparable airplane all by himself at the same cost as renting it.

As fine a cross country machine as it might be, I don't consider a 45 year old re-engined V-tail, or similar, a comparable airplane.
 
GRG55 said:
My turn to call BS.

He's flying a 2015 Cirrus with a G1000 panel. Show us how he gets to own, operate and maintain a comparable airplane all by himself at the same cost as renting it.

As fine a cross country machine as it might be, I don't consider a 45 year old re-engined V-tail, or similar, a comparable airplane.
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I showed earlier in the thread a much more capable glass paneled airplane for much less money.


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No way I would rent. I bought my Debonair when I was still a student pilot, but was close to finishing. But the choices I had to rent were not that great, and keeping them for a week or two would have been a problem. I'm retired and my wife and I like to take the plane on vacations and visiting friends. We may be gone for a week or two.

i would love a newer SR-22, but the SR-20 isn't worth it to me. I wanted a plane that would cruise at least 150knt, the wife's main interest is speed, she views the plane as a way to get somewhere fast. I'm happy just flying. But I want control over my plane, renting doesn't give me that.
 
James331 said:
I was thinking about putting a bug on a altitude, but if frankly that's not enough.. it's silly, not even the multi million dollar turbine I fly auto dives, mainly because with a crew who knows how to fly its more of a hazard than a feature
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On a crewed pressurized airplane, yeah not likely. But in that situation, you have multiple layers of defense against hypoxia. But on an unpressurized airplane? How many lines of defense do you have against hypoxia? This is a great feature. What happens when your 02 bottle runs out? Or you get a crimp in the line and have reduced flow? How do you notice....

Tim
 
dmcummins said:
the SR-20 isn't worth it to me. I wanted a plane that would cruise at least 150knt, the wife's main interest is speed, she views the plane as a way to get somewhere fast. I'm happy just flying. But I want control over my plane, renting doesn't give me that.
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Very similar situation here. I posted a thread a short while ago asking about Denonairs... that and the Mooney M20J are pretty high on my list at this point of planes I would buy should I take that plunge within the next couple years. Cirrus is nice but SR22 is out of the question at this point and the SR20 isn't worth it. I just like flying and the people who fly with me like speed.
 
Tantalum said:
Very similar situation here. I posted a thread a short while ago asking about Denonairs... that and the Mooney M20J are pretty high on my list at this point of planes I would buy should I take that plunge within the next couple years.
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IMHO, the M20 series is the best bang for the buck, especially the M20J/201.
 
Anthony said:
the M20 series is the best bang for the buck
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Seriously! I can't believe the prices on some of these.. for the speed and a sturdy airframe with panache it can't be beat. Especially if your typical "mission" is just yourself or one other person
 
Tantalum said:
Seriously! I can't believe the prices on some of these.. for the speed and a sturdy airframe with panache it can't be beat. Especially if your typical "mission" is just yourself or one other person
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And if you want a real personal airliner sometimes I can't believe prices on the M20M Bravo, turbocharged long body...


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Call me spoiled, but I want a fast plane which has two doors. My days of crawling/sliding/jumping over a seat are behind me; by a long margin.

So in that case, besides Cirrus, and the new Mooney (both of which are outside my price range), what is available in the certified space? (I am already considering experimental, and know my choices fairly well).

Tim
 
tspear said:
On a crewed pressurized airplane, yeah not likely. But in that situation, you have multiple layers of defense against hypoxia. But on an unpressurized airplane? How many lines of defense do you have against hypoxia? This is a great feature. What happens when your 02 bottle runs out? Or you get a crimp in the line and have reduced flow? How do you notice....

Tim
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In a pressurized plane you often have a alert for cabin altitude, plus you have a gauge that reads cabin altitude.

Even easier in a non pressurized, all you need to worry about is the altimeter, and if you like shoving plastic up your nose you also have a simple to read pressure gauge on your bottle, plus you should how many minutes of o2 you have and have it timed.

Frankly the people who NEED these features, really don't need to be flying, demographically you're talking the doctor who can't even land on the center line who launches into a thunderstorm, cant fix stupid.
 
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James331 said:
Frankly the people who NEED these features, really don't need to be flying, demographically you're talking the doctor who can't even land on the center line who launches into a thunderstorm, can fix stupid.
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You forgot "in a Bonanza". :)
 
gsengle said:
Personally I think there is nothing sillier than a 110 knot airliner (172 w/ G1000)


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That's exactly what it is, and why it is produced. Think of all the pilot-mill flight schools who emphasize glass / CRM from the start of training. For them, the G1000 172 is near perfect. It has a purpose in that context. And that's where most of the sale volume is.
 
tspear said:
Call me spoiled, but I want a fast plane which has two doors. My days of crawling/sliding/jumping over a seat are behind me; by a long margin.

So in that case, besides Cirrus, and the new Mooney (both of which are outside my price range), what is available in the certified space? (I am already considering experimental, and know my choices fairly well).

Tim
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Columbia 400.
 
3 in the green said:
That's exactly what it is, and why it is produced. Think of all the pilot-mill flight schools who emphasize glass / CRM from the start of training. For them, the G1000 172 is near perfect. It has a purpose in that context. And that's where most of the sale volume is.
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Yes I guess the smaller flight schools all buy used. But I have a hard time believing there isn't a market for a 172 with basic IFR instruments for a bunch less $$$. How hard to have 2 versions?


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tspear said:
Call me spoiled, but I want a fast plane which has two doors. My days of crawling/sliding/jumping over a seat are behind me; by a long margin.

So in that case, besides Cirrus, and the new Mooney (both of which are outside my price range), what is available in the certified space? (I am already considering experimental, and know my choices fairly well).
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I hear you, and the two door thing is definitely a nice item to have. How fast do you want to go? The 206 and 210 have okay cruising speeds, a healthy margin faster than the typical training fleet. For my personal plane I would like to have something a little less rugged looking and with a little more sex appeal
 
3 in the green said:
Columbia 400.
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I should have been more specific. I was thinking of something older and cheaper. If I am going certified, I likely would cap at 100K all in. Or I would at that point go experimental and get more bang for the buck.

Tantalum said:
I hear you, and the two door thing is definitely a nice item to have. How fast do you want to go? The 206 and 210 have okay cruising speeds, a healthy margin faster than the typical training fleet. For my personal plane I would like to have something a little less rugged looking and with a little more sex appeal
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Minimum is 150 KTAS at 10K. I would really prefer to be closer to 200 KTAS. I do not like wearing O2, so I rarely would ever go higher.
Problem fundamentally is my desires, wallet, and mission are in conflict. :D

Never been in a 210, but I have spent a couple of hours flying a 206. Wonderful plane except I hit my head a few times on the preflight, it can go fast via brute force, can it carry a lot, performs well, short field (the one I tested had a STOL kit installed).

Tim
 
citizen5000 said:
Turbocharged max cruise 256 knots. Climb 2kfpm. 1300 lb useful.
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If I recall correctly those were fixed gear. It it was an RG I'm sure it would go even faster... LOL :stirpot:
 
By the way, the answer to the OP's original question that nobody has given:

When you want to. ;)

Airplane keys in your pocket that can be put in the ignition at any time, is a wonderful feeling.
 
Sinistar said:
Then rent the Cirrus and get your HP endorsement.
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The SR-20 is not high performance. It's 200hp, and the FAA definition of high performance is *more than* 200.

tspear said:
Call me spoiled, but I want a fast plane which has two doors. My days of crawling/sliding/jumping over a seat are behind me; by a long margin.

So in that case, besides Cirrus, and the new Mooney (both of which are outside my price range), what is available in the certified space? (I am already considering experimental, and know my choices fairly well).

I should have been more specific. I was thinking of something older and cheaper. If I am going certified, I likely would cap at 100K all in. Or I would at that point go experimental and get more bang for the buck.

Minimum is 150 KTAS at 10K. I would really prefer to be closer to 200 KTAS. I do not like wearing O2, so I rarely would ever go higher.
Problem fundamentally is my desires, wallet, and mission are in conflict. :D

Never been in a 210, but I have spent a couple of hours flying a 206. Wonderful plane except I hit my head a few times on the preflight, it can go fast via brute force, can it carry a lot, performs well, short field (the one I tested had a STOL kit installed).
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Columbia 400/Corvallis TT, Cirrus, Mooney (Ultra models), and Cessna are about it for two-door faster airplanes. Since the plastic ones (Columbia/Cessna, Cirrus) and the half-plastic ones (Mooney Ultra) are out of your price range, that pretty much leaves Cessna.

Cessnas that will do 150 KTAS at 10K: R182, TR182, 210. Maybe 206. The 206 and 210 will cost a fair bit to insure because they're six seaters, and an older 210 even more so because of the older landing gear system problems.

It's really hard to get a two-door fast airplane on a budget. Maybe you should try some of the single-door models - I find the Mooney way easier to get into than you'd think, once you know the best technique: Stand on the wing walk outside the door, place your right knee into the right seat, roll into the left seat. No crawling, sliding, or jumping.
 
tspear said:
Minimum is 150 KTAS at 10K. I would really prefer to be closer to 200 KTAS. I do not like wearing O2, so I rarely would ever go higher.
Problem fundamentally is my desires, wallet, and mission are in conflict. :D
Tim
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I used to feel the same way about wearing O2. But if you get a regular medical nasal cannula, (which are softer and have narrower tubes over the ears) they are fairly comfortable. And the O2 really helps stave off fatigue during long hauls. I wore one on a 3.5 hr leg back from KSAN to KSCK at 12k the other day (the return leg of a same day round trip) and felt fresh as a daisy when I landed. I'm planning on using O2 for all long hauls from now on.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
It's really hard to get a two-door fast airplane on a budget. Maybe you should try some of the single-door models - I find the Mooney way easier to get into than you'd think, once you know the best technique: Stand on the wing walk outside the door, place your right knee into the right seat, roll into the left seat. No crawling, sliding, or jumping.
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I like the way Mooney handles. I have flown a few of them. I will have to try that sometime.

Tim
 
Well depending on the budget - the Commander 114 - Turbo or Turbo Noramlized will cruise well. I typically cruise around 130 or 140 in a normally aspirated Commander 114 - so it depends on the speeds you need and your budget.

After having the Commander a few years - I am still loving it - When I have a pax in the copilot seat - we sit next to each on not, on - there is a lot of room in that cabin - but - you give up speed for comfort.

Dean
 
tspear said:
I like the way Mooney handles. I have flown a few of them. I will have to try that sometime.

Tim
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And one counterpoint to wanting a low wing with two doors - one door is one less thing to possibly leak in the rain...


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Tantalum said:
Very similar situation here. I posted a thread a short while ago asking about Denonairs... that and the Mooney M20J are pretty high on my list at this point of planes I would buy should I take that plunge within the next couple years. Cirrus is nice but SR22 is out of the question at this point and the SR20 isn't worth it. I just like flying and the people who fly with me like speed.
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I was also looking at Mooneys at the time. I just found the Debonair first.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
The SR-20 is not high performance. It's 200hp, and the FAA definition of high performance is *more than* 200.
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Thank you for the correction. I was thinking it was more than 200HP + constant speed prop. So I'm gonna guess Cirrus purposely picked the exact 200HP just for this reason? Also, isn't the constant speed prop somehow integrated (no separate control)?
 
denverpilot said:
Airplane keys in your pocket that can be put in the ignition at any time, is a wonderful feeling.
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Well, you can put them in the ignition... Except of course when the Attitude Indicator gets a little more tilt than it should in IMC and you need to try and figure out why and if its the vacuum system, pump or AI and how many zeros the repair will cost. And until then you're stuck waiting for a VFR day to go check it out safely. And then the one EGT that's perpetually bouncing, and the 2 CHT probes that don't show up at all, and the door seal that lets all the cold air in and the heater control that lets all the warm air in.
 
Cessna wise, you're talking a 210 or a big engine skywagon
 
chartbundle said:
No TKS/FIKI.
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What did you get?

For my mission and where I am at I don't need those items. Flying for me is purely for fun, I'm pursuing currently IR so I'm not stopped by the marine layers here but I don't need a machine to get me through icing, etc. If I did... I'd be looking at twins, probably a Baron (yeah yeah twice the engines and maintenance for not twice the performance).. but if I'm going to be sitting icing conditions in IMC somewhere over the rockies that second engine brings you a lot of piece of mind
 
i need to come back to this thread more that once a day to keep up with questions ha!

but the 4k a month to fly the sr20 breaks down for 20 hours a month plus the membership fee. it seems i may be dreaming a bit for those hours, so 10 hours per month is probably more realistic..that would be 2300 dollars a month. no way could i get a plane as capable and as many features as the sr20 for that price. Regarding the g1000/ glass cockpit i love it. im a young guy so more technology the better. i really enjoy having TCAS when going into busy airports. ive already have a few people fly into the pattern on the wrong frequency.

the school has a small fleet of SR22t, so i will get my HP endorsement in one of those, but i likely wont fly them much. i have no real need to get there fast. even in the 20 when im cruising im at 60% power. or about 120kts. technically with my job, i never have to come home since i can work anywhere with a decent internet connection..like the wifi hotspot from my phone :)

i still like the idea of my own plane. maybe i could find something around 18k just to build up hours in and keep the cirrus membership for when ever i want to take passengers somewhere..a tail dragger with tundra tires would be awesome.:)
 
mtnflyr said:
i need to come back to this thread more that once a day to keep up with questions ha!

but the 4k a month to fly the sr20 breaks down for 20 hours a month plus the membership fee. it seems i may be dreaming a bit for those hours, so 10 hours per month is probably more realistic..that would be 2300 dollars a month. no way could i get a plane as capable and as many features as the sr20 for that price. Regarding the g1000/ glass cockpit i love it. im a young guy so more technology the better. i really enjoy having TCAS when going into busy airports. ive already have a few people fly into the pattern on the wrong frequency.

the school has a small fleet of SR22t, so i will get my HP endorsement in one of those, but i likely wont fly them much. i have no real need to get there fast. even in the 20 when im cruising im at 60% power. or about 120kts. technically with my job, i never have to come home since i can work anywhere with a decent internet connection..like the wifi hotspot from my phone :)

i still like the idea of my own plane. maybe i could find something around 18k just to build up hours in and keep the cirrus membership for when ever i want to take passengers somewhere..a tail dragger with tundra tires would be awesome.:)
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But you are wrong, you can get a plane that capable or more capable for that price as a number of responses on this thread indicate.


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Tantalum said:
What did you get?
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Mooney M20J, yes, no turbo and no FIKI. I decided for my first purchase I should stick with something with a somewhat lower maintenance budget and hassle level. I will be flying for/to work on occasion, but will always have the airline/driving as a backup when I really need to be on-site at a customer. I'm hopeful there will be days where if I can't fly all the way to where I'm going, that I'll be able to fly to the big commercial airport to save the drive. The nice thing is that here in the PNW there's only 10 months of the year when it's IFR and only 9 with ice.
 
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