When the CFI steps in

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Private pilot working on my TW endorsement. I was practicing slips in a vintage tailwheel plane tonight. Slipping is not something I do all that often with the 172 I usually fly I just throw the barn doors out and it comes right down. I do Ok slipping nose to the right which is what I practice most of the time when I do but was really struggling nose to the left something I have only done a few times. Probably the one big thing that was causing my problem was not getting lined up good enough before starting the slip so I was trying to turn and slip at the same time it just didn't work very well.

Well I was in the middle of what had become this really ugly slip and getting preoccupied with how to fix it. I over did it a bit on the rudder and was struggling to get where I wanted to be and got a little slow. I was just back to my scan of the airpseed indicator and we were dropping slowly through about 60 mph and the instructor pushed the nose down and said don't get too slow really just a friendly reminder not a panicked push. I popped out of the slip and made a decent landing all be it a little fast.

When I review stuff like that in my head I get really frustrated with myself. I should never let it get to that point. Yeah I had 15-20mph before the stall and yeah I did see it just before he pushed it but I should know and be better particularly when the consequences of stalling in a slip 40 or 50 feet above the runway would not be good. If I was by myself and hesitated a little longer on the scan it could have been ugly. Probably not but maybe.

After that I shook it off and made the prettiest slip to a landing you ever saw but for some reason you can do something great 10 times but the 1 time you screw up sticks with you.

The other thing that makes it more frustrating is I want to master things I don't do well but training cost so much. If was up to me I would book the instructor every night for the next month until I had it down but who can afford that? Not me.
 
This problem seems to step from chasing the airspeed indicator rather than paying attention to the pitch attitude of the airplane. Keep it nose low and you should be fine. The airspeed indicator is not accurate in slips anyway.

As far as your flawed slip itself, see it as a learning experience. It sounds like you are making a mountain out of a molehill.
 
Learning can be frustrating at times. I would take it as a good sign that you were just about to make the same correction your instructor was. I just wrapped up my PPL and was going through the same thing during all the checkride prep. It seemed that every time my instructor made a comment to me about needing to fix something, that I had just noticed it and was one to two seconds from correcting it myself.

I recall that my instructor mentioned something to me. He told me not to get too frustrated as his only job was to look for thigns I was doing wrong, while my job was to actually fly the airplane and look for things I was doing wrong.

If you have made it this far, I am sure you can wrap up the tailwheel endorsement as well. Stick with it!
 
That's the hardest part of being an instructor. How far do you let the student go, waiting for him to see a problem developing and fixing it. When it comes to potential life threatening situations, like a screwed up slipping turn with airspeed decreasing and the nose too high.

Yeah, it's time to push that nose down before we end up with a stall, incipient spin on final.
 
Unregistered said:
The other thing that makes it more frustrating is I want to master things I don't do well but training cost so much. If was up to me I would book the instructor every night for the next month until I had it down but who can afford that? Not me.
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Your family can't afford for you to NOT hire the instructor until you figure it out... keep that in mind. Caskets are cheap, but they don't fix holes in the heart. Keep working at it. You'll get it, and if your instructor's got any imagination, he'll find a way to help you get it eventually. Communicate with him.
 
I'm okay with slips, but my transition from slip to flare/landing is uncomfortable and definitely not fluid. It's like I'm going from writing with my right hand and suddenly trying to write with my left in mid-sentence. :redface:

Practice will cure me, though. :yesnod:
 
You think it's bad when your cfi nudges the yoke during a slip to landing? I had that happen on my check ride. Nailed everything, except the slip to land on the last landing. I remember distinctly, the blood drained from my face. I thought I was toast. He didn't say much until after we were walking back to the FBO. Gave me a good 20 minutes to beat myself mentally. I was near tears on that walk (mostly about the $500 that I thought I had just blown). But he did pass me, I guess on the merits of everything else.

Your cfi handled the situation nearly perfectly. He didn't beat you up over it, just a casual suggestion. That's their job. You are flying an aircraft that isn't altogether familiar to you, and those things are expected. It was a learning experience. Go out and have fun, and learn!
 
mikeinbama said:
I can't slip nose left worth a damn either.
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Why IS that?

I feel the same way. I was out flying the Waco this weekend and I always slip to land (no flaps and horrible forward vis). I noticed that slipping left wing low and nose to the right is completely natural, but when I try right wing down/nose left it just doesn't feel right. Kind of awkward feeling actually.
 
I don't know the answer, but I have thought it had to do with being right handed, but I don't know. What's funny is, I don't seem to have any issue with the side slip to either side.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Thanks all, for the encouragement and the helpful tips.

What I do feel good about from yesterdays lesson which was just my second tailwheel lesson were I worked out some issues on take off the main issue there was learning to make small little corrections all the time before they become bigger ones.

Overall the landings were pretty good even when I flared a little high and came in with a small bounce my feet were moving and was able to keep things headed straight. Probably wouldn't be so pretty on pavement. We will find out next lesson. :D

I also had two greasers one where the instructor said not sure you can make a nicer one than that which was true right up until the next landing. :D
 
There can be an error in indicated airspeed when performing forward slips, especially if your airplane has a single side static port. This doesn't present a problem if you fly the appropriate attitude in the slip. Given that the slip is a high-drag configuration, when you enter a power-off forward slip you'll need an attitude slightly lower than that used during a normal power-off approach.

How much lower? It depends on the airplane, but a ballpark estimate might be 1 or 2 degrees. The desired attitude, however, is more accurately selected by control feel, sound, and kinematical sense, rather than worrying about flying a specific airspeed (the sound coming from your flight instructor is also a good clue in finding the proper attitude).

You certainly don't want an attitude higher than your normal approach attitude. This is what I would call "slipping up," and it would result in too low an approach speed. Many pilots tend to lower the nose when forward slipping to the left and raise the nose when forward slipping to the right, because of the changing windscreen perspective. As with other climb, descent, and emergency glide attitudes, you'll want to commit the attitude for a forward slip to memory, too.
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Was looking up some information on airpseed indication in a slip and found this answer to the question on Flying magazines page. I thought the comments about slipping to the right and left and the nose orientation to be interesting.
 
Life threatening situations? Caskets are cheap? I think some of you are being harder on OP than OP is. :eek:

A stall in a slip will not cause a spin.
 
dmspilot said:
Life threatening situations? Caskets are cheap? I think some of you are being harder on OP than OP is. :eek:

A stall in a slip will not cause a spin.
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I'm not saying anything about the OP, but considering where I normally would do a slip, a stall would probably not end well.
 
Why are you scanning your panel?


Can you feel the plane, just keep her slipped with the nose down, round our and straighten out just off the deck.

I got my PPL in a tailwheel with no flaps, slips have always stuck with me, aside from my amphib there isn't a plane I've flown I haven't slipped, the flaps on a 206 or 208 are great, add a slip to that and you're in a whole new field.

When you get back into that 172 start using slips more often, a slip is something that, given enough hours, WILL save your bacon.
 
Remember, the result of a stall in a slip is a level airplane in a stall. It is not unless you maintain those control inputs that it can go beyond wings level and into a skid that will then develop into a spin. If as soon as the wing starts coming up, you release rudder, you will not spin from stalling in a slip. You can actually practice a 'falling leaf' stall in a slip in this manner, breaking out of the spin long before it can form.
 
Henning said:
Remember, the result of a stall in a slip is a level airplane in a stall. It is not unless you maintain those control inputs that it can go beyond wings level and into a skid that will then develop into a spin. If as soon as the wing starts coming up, you release rudder, you will not spin from stalling in a slip. You can actually practice a 'falling leaf' stall in a slip in this manner, breaking out of the spin long before it can form.
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Yup

As long as you have a foot on the high wing.
 
jesse said:
Amazing how many people get it backwards. I always try to drive "step on the sky" into people's heads....
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That's where much of PP training in tricycles fails and the values of tailwheel training are extolled. It could easily be done with some extra concentration on slow flight in the very beginning demonstrating criticality of rudder to control the bank at high AoA. You can also introduce aileron reversal effect at critical AoA. Once people understand to just neutralize the ailerons and drive it on the pedals at high AoA, then they have it all licked for spin safety. That's what you learn landing taildraggers, use the rudders.
 
jesse said:
Amazing how many people get it backwards. I always try to drive "step on the sky" into people's heads....
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Too bad falling leaf stalls aren't in the PTS.

Just keep on the high wing, even works should you need to use in IMC or night with the turn coordinator.
 
James331 said:
Too bad falling leaf stalls aren't in the PTS.

Just keep on the high wing, even works should you need to use in IMC or night with the turn coordinator.
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Just because they aren't in the PTS doesn't mean you can't teach them.
 
James331 said:
Indeed.

I do think if more folks experienced we would have less accidental spins.
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I had my first accidental spin on lesson 2. My instructor didn't correct my lack of right rudder on a power on stall and around we went. Spin training with a few more to get the hang of them and that was that. Never really worried about accidentally getting into a spin again.

2 turns to a heading used to be in the PTS. One of the old guys was an OX-5/UFO/QB. For his first ride, the examiner sent him up to do a two turn spin to a heading; complete that, then go pick up the examiner to do the rest of the ride.
 
Since this thread is still alive, can someone discuss what is so difficult about slips? Outside of checkrides when the pressure is on (I am much more comfortable with slips now after my checkride). For example, if I am expecting a left base and well above altitude, then I kick full left rudder and opposite right yoke to maintain heading. Turning base and final just relax the yoke to make the turn? My cfi harped on the rudder... if in a slip keep it kicked hard, and of course maintain final airspeed. I think that was the problem on my checkride. I relaxed the rudder when nearing the threshold. The dpe wanted me to carry it further.
 
Truthfully, a Cub is a lot easier and more fun to slip than a 172 and the slip is more effective as well.
 
The 172 I started flying in was placarded against doing slips with full flaps.
 
dmspilot said:
A stall in a slip will not cause a spin.
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Gee, you had such a nice post at #2... then this. Where do you guys get this stuff? You hold rudder long enough and it'll spin out over the top every time.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
Gee, you had such a nice post at #2... then this. Where do you guys get this stuff? You hold rudder long enough and it'll spin out over the top every time.

dtuuri
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It will have transitioned from slip to skid at wings level. It's a long way to get that low wing up and over. A 172 won't do it, it'll bobble.
 
Henning said:
It will have transitioned from slip to skid at wings level. It's a long way to get that low wing up and over. A 172 won't do it, it'll bobble.
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I don't know what "bobble" you have in mind, but telling students they can't spin from a slip is a distinction with no difference. The last thought the dead pilot will have was, "The slip somehow went wrong..."

dtuuri
 
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And this was such a good discussion too. I was learning something then the thread went off the rails again....

<sigh> Why do I waste my time?
 
dtuuri said:
Gee, you had such a nice post at #2... then this. Where do you guys get this stuff? You hold rudder long enough and it'll spin out over the top every time.

dtuuri
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Because I've done them, but you don't have to believe me:

Airplane Flying Handbook said:
Unlike skids, however, if an airplane in a slip is made to stall, it displays very little of the yawing tendency that causes a skidding stall to develop into a spin. The airplane in a slip may do little more than tend to roll into a wings level attitude. In fact, in some airplanes stall characteristics may even be improved.
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Several other experts have written the same.
 
Anyone with a plane and video camera care to demonstrate? I already added it to my list of things to do next time I am with an instructor.
 
dtuuri said:
I don't know what "bobble" you have in mind, but telling students they can't spin from a slip is a distinction with no difference. The last thought the dead pilot will have was, "The slip somehow went wrong..."

dtuuri
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There is a BIG difference when you compare it to entering from a skid. By 'bobble' I mean the 172 doesn't tuck a wing and break into a spin from a slip, it will erect itself first, then maybe break over the other direction if you haven't let out the rudder some yet.

If you fail to get a wing down on a slow base to final and push the tail through with the rudder, you will be looking at dirt faster than you can say "oh crap".

You don't have to be afraid of spins from a slip, they give a ton of warning and stop instantly with a bit of rudder action. You have this entire period where you have to come through wings level and transition into a skid before you even begin the spin entry. You should be well prepared to deal with that from slow flight practice.
 
woodchucker said:
For example, if I am expecting a left base and well above altitude, then I kick full left rudder and opposite right yoke to maintain heading. Turning base and final just relax the yoke to make the turn?
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I think this results in a skidding turn rather than a slipping turn. For a left base, I would use right rudder and left stick. Less rudder as necessary to make the turn.
 
dmspilot said:
Because I've done them, but you don't have to believe me:



Several other experts have written the same.
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First, I've read what the others say, they're not experts. Second, the AFH isn't wrong, but neither am I. Third, whatever direction the nose is yawing doesn't change the fact that the wing opposite the ball will stall first and that's the direction you will rotate in the ensuing spin. Gravity hastens the entry if the process starts from a skid, it slows the process if it starts from a slip, but either way you're gong to spin if you don't recognize and recover in time.

dtuuri
 
retailguy said:
And this was such a good discussion too. I was learning something then the thread went off the rails again....

<sigh> Why do I waste my time?
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You mean waste my time reading your self-absorbed complaints. :rolleyes:

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
You mean waste my time reading your self-absorbed complaints. :rolleyes:

dtuuri
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Not exactly, no. I picture you in front of the bathroom mirror wondering openly why the FAA hasn't recruited you.

Hint - It's your delivery.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Why IS that?

I feel the same way. I was out flying the Waco this weekend and I always slip to land (no flaps and horrible forward vis). I noticed that slipping left wing low and nose to the right is completely natural, but when I try right wing down/nose left it just doesn't feel right. Kind of awkward feeling actually.
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Just a guess, but most people are right handed (go go 85%ers!) and their right leg is stronger.

Also, pushing down on the left side of a yoke is easier than pulling up the left side and pushing forward as well.

It sounds weird, but those are just guesses from what I have seen as a CFI.
 
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