nimdabew
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nimdabew
I tell all the new CFI wannabes this is when you will most likely experience a spin with a student.
I tell all the new CFI wannabes this is when you will most likely experience a spin with a student.
denverpilot
Tied Down
You'll be waiting a long time in most trainers power off. Power on, it's still a multiple second thing and relaxing the controls will fix it immediately until you're well over the top. Even then it'll come right out, but you'll be headed the "wrong" direction. Especially to the right.
Someone asked if there was video, I believe Jesse has one on YT at altitude, demonstrating the behavior of a 172.
Henning wasn't wrong really, and neither were you, but one could almost take a nap and wake up and still avoid a power off accelerated stall that'll do an "over the top" from a slip. If you really want to get the job done, power on and a skid to the left and you'll go for a "ride" sooner in a 172. Well, get it started anyway. Relax anything and it'll recover, usually even into the first turn. After that you'll have to poke the opposite rudder.
It's seriously annoying that most folk now don't have any time at all doing spins. It's fun. It's educational. I wish my 182 were certified to do it.
My first instructor had me spin the holy hell out of a 172 and a couple of 150s. Spins to a heading? Total blast. Gives you something to do other than try to count rotations. "Over the top" stuff? Way cool. Usually helped along by judicious addition of power at the "wrong" time after setting up a horribly cross controlled "approach" to a line on the ground well below us by a few thousand feet. Great example of why to get the controls UN-crossed before you go shoving the throttle up and why you'll have to PUUUUSH if you really don't want that mess to get out of hand real quick.
The 150 spins a ton better than the 172, by the way. Better break and faster initial rotation. I am green with envy of those who have aerobatic time in something that will spin properly. Trainers? They really are pretty benign. The first four or five you think things are happening fast, but after that, it's about as interesting as doing a standard 45 degree bank steep turn.
Since there's no real feel of G forces fo speak of in spins unless you're overdoing it during the dive pullout, 60 degree banked steep turns are more interesting from a purely "seat of the pants feel" than spins, and they're fun, too.
Fearless Tower
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I think dominant right leg may be a factor. For me it isn't about yoke pressure, as most of my slipping these days is done flying with a stick.
I was thinking it also may be related to the fact that most traffic patterns are left, so it is more natural to slip left wing down as you are already left wing low turning base to final.
JimNtexas
Pattern Altitude
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Jim - In Texas!
When I'm king every new pilot will fly ten hours off a grass strip in J-3 with no electrical system or radio.
Then they won't be scared to slip.
Then they won't be scared to slip.
Natural prop tendencies? Pull the nose up with power it wants to go left, point the nose down and drag the prop, what will it want to do?
It was intentional on his part. Very effective demonstration.
jesse
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I recorded this video back when I was like 19 years old. That particular 172 absolutely was not going to break into a spin in a full slipped stall.
retailguy
Line Up and Wait
Jesse,
That's exactly what I could get my 172 to do also. I could never get it to spin either. That's the most docile plane I have ever flown.
I'm sure that my anecdotal evidence doesn't make our good friend from Ohio wrong because, well, he said so.
thanks for the memories. I really miss that plane. Was a great plane to learn in!
dtuuri
Final Approach
Of course it didn't, look at your bank angle--too steep. Go do it again with 10 degrees. Hold on.
dtuuri
dtuuri
Final Approach
You mean go write a book for you to read?
Do no other books explain why some planes in a steep turn don't stall (like in Jesse's video)?dtuuri
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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exncsurfer
Pattern Altitude
nice post, the old 'let me google that for you' trick.
if you havent seen this you've got to try it on someone:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=STAll+from+a+slip+video
regarding the slipping stall:
From these videos looks like it really depends a lot on the plane. The Extra goes over the top pretty quick. The 172 would either take some time or not come over at all depending on the bank angle.
My CFI showed me falling leaf stall in a 172 on my 3rd or 4th lesson after I accidentally dropped a wing on a power off stall. I'm not sure how I did it, I thought i was centering the ball but whatever i did made the wing drop(maybe I didn't step on the right pedal or maybe sometimes you can't step on the ball when near a stall). He said to keep my head outside and he showed me how you can, as Jesse said, step on the high wing and keep going back and forth on the pedals in the stall and not spin.
retailguy
Line Up and Wait
So, I think I have this straight now. If I do something that I would never do in normal flight, I can start a spin. No kidding? For the love of God.
"Technically" you're correct. Practically, your situation will NEVER happen.
It's really sad that someone with so much knowledge has to argue about stupid things and confuse those new 172 pilots among us.
I was new once. Scared ****less in my abilities. Took forever to fly with my family for fear I'd do something stupid and hurt them. If you're a "new" pilot reading this and wondering if you will spin it if you try a proper slip - STOP WORRYING. You won't.
If you're not sure you can do a proper slip, go up with a CFI - preferably one who won't argue with you as to whether or not they are "technically correct".
SMH...
dtuuri
Final Approach
Do you mean something like turning steep slipping 360s on final like in Jesse's video? His plane didn't spin unless I missed it.
Because...?
I didn't think you had that much, but I agree you shouldn't try to confuse students.
Truly "new" pilots don't yet know what proper is, so a cavalier attitude about them garnered from non-CFIs preaching on the internet can lead to regrets. You see some linebacker stiff-legging the rudder and twisting the yoke off trying to lift the nose and wing as the plane rolls over the top during stall practice or grabbing your thigh with mortal fear in their eyes and you'll think twice about assuring newbies to "rack it on over 'cause you're perfectly safe." If you have a conscience.
dtuuri
Clark1961
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No video but I tried it today. First of all the aircraft didn't want to stay at 10 degrees of bank (as we learned on lesson #2 of ppl training). Second, the buffet was very strong, it started well before the stall warning horn sounded. Third thing is the nose started bobbing (this is the bobbel than Henning mentioned). Fourth, the deck angle had to be nose up to keep it in the buffet, stall warning horn area. Fifth, the descent rate was greater than 1,000'.
Conclusion, you'd hit the ground before it broke into a spin unless you pull the yoke back into your lap, held it there while ignoring the buffet. Overall it was a reasonably benign experience and really about what I expected. The aircraft likes to bob it's nose in a coordinated stall and ya really gotta hold a lot of back-pressure to get it all the way to a stall break.
All this was in a taper wing, big stab PA-28. Any other aircraft may/will behave differently.
Pretty much anything designed since WWII will behave the same way.
Clark1961
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A couple of thoughts:
Will a small stab PA-28 even get to the nose drop/stall break?
I generally pull very smoothly and maybe slowly just holding altitude which avoids adding g-load. A more agressive pull (with resultant climb) may get to the stall break.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Tried what, stalling from a straight slip or a slipping turn? Was your heading constant?
Did you make it stay there anyway?
No doubt your tail was stalling first.
Tail stalling.
Especially if you're carrying power, but then if the bank isn't too steep even your Cherokee will stall..
Not surprising.
dtuuri
Fearless Tower
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Damnit, out of coleslaw. Gonna have to go back to popcorn...
Clark1961
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#1, keep up with the thread. heading was constant, power off
#2, yes
#3, so? it's what the airplane did
At no time did the aircraft try to spin. Sorry.
dtuuri
Final Approach
The thread pertains to a C-172, but if you want to bring up the stall stability of your PA-28 it's alright by me. In fact it's good that you have because it makes a nice contrast. Your plane's design limits the authority of the stabilator, but the 172 doesn't become limited until it's in a steep bank and turning. Doing a straight ahead stall in a 10° bank with controls crossed will result in an over-the-top stall in a 172, not so much in a plane that can barely stall at all unless you pitch up first and hold it up with full aft yoke. Then the Cherokee will stall too as it changes from a climb to a descent.
dtuuri
You have video of a 172 behaving the same. It's just an OWT spread by instructors who don't really understand the aerodynamics. A plane will not go into a spin from a slip, it has transition to a skid first, and most GA planes aren't going to do it at idle.
Clark1961
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Remember that not all Cherokees are created equal. The stab size was increased in the later years and they stall just fine. One does have to be patient and wait for it and it helps to have the front seats full.
dtuuri
Final Approach
That's not my understanding. Jesse was in a descending turn, Clark was on a heading. There's less elevator authority in the turn.
Like I said previously, that's a distinction without a difference. The initial manuever is a slip--the result a spin.
dtuuri
But to transition from one to another is not something that is part of the "accidental" stall/spin scenario; you have to work at it to make it happen, it's not something that can sneak up on you. You have plenty of opportunity to just let the plane recover itself by relaxing full control inputs just a bit. Skidding is what bites people in the ass; not wanting to get that wing down on base to final and shoving the tail around with the rudder, that's what will kill you in the "accidental stall/spin" scenario.
dtuuri
Final Approach
I remember the 1973 Cherokee 180s very well. Longer wing, window for the backseat, green panel lights, nice firm seat cushions. Smelled good too!
dtuuri
dtuuri
Final Approach
Making a flat skidding turn is the typical way to kill one's self, sure, but it isn't the only way. I'm not saying slips are dangerous, I'm just saying we shouldn't be telling people a plane cannot wind up in a spin from doing them. Anytime a pilot is operating near the low end of the speed envelope while flying sideways through the air one wing is closer to the stall than the other and a stall will cause a dramatic roll. Better to be slipping than skidding, yes, because you have more time and need less altitude for recovery.
dtuuri
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
I was in a descending turn only because that's what will happen if you stall the plane and hold it into a stall. Let me know if you know of a way I could put it in a stall in a full slip and hold it like that without the 172 descending.
dtuuri
Final Approach
That's not what you did or said you did in the tape
:
"Descending" isn't the issue. It was stated that a plane can't spin if it's doing a slip. I don't think that's good advice to give newbies.
Here's a thought experiment: From straight and level slow flight add some rudder then incrementally stop the resulting turn with opposite aileron. Then add some more rudder and prevent any turn with aileron. At some point you'll have full control deflection of either rudder, aileron or both. Now pull the stick back and... what will it do? What about if you pull back when you reach 10° of bank, same thing?
dtuuri
Clark1961
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So why exactly would anybody do those things? Forward slips and side slips have a purpose which includes descent. I think you have a point which isn't practical in everyday flight. It is so impractical that all you can do is propose a "thought experiment" instead of a real life flight setting.
The important thing to teach is to keep the nose down. Sure, take the student out and teach them what happens if they don't keep the nose down but don't worry about the far edges of what might happen.
My practical example for your concern is an approach that crosses a body of water. Likely a sink over the water so get out of the slip in prep and then be ready to get back in the slip on the other side if needed. Good training and no big deal in teaching a student.
dtuuri
Final Approach
To demonstrate what happens when the plane gets too slow in a slip.
It's cheaper than doing a real flight, not to mention a lot faster.
Teach them what might happen, but then tell 'em not to worry about it?
Different strokes for different folks. There's lots of creative ways to help students become nimble with slips.
My "concern" is that crossing the controls at low speed and low altitude isn't done with a false sense of security founded on forum gossip. Not a single poster here has mentioned power setting as a caveat, for example, but it can make a big difference. For instance, slipping slightly, with power, during a crosswind landing can have a different result during an inadvertant stall than a power-off stall attempt from a steep spiral. I'm happy you did the flight test, btw. I hope others do too in their planes--at altitude of course.
dtuuri
Clark1961
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Fine, make sure *you* know what you are demonstrating.
It's also misleading when the outcome to the "experiment" you describe doesn't match reality.
Teach them what might happen, but then tell 'em not to worry about it?
That's not what I said and you know it. Demonstrate what might happen and how to avoid it so it's not a concern.
I believe you need to go do the flight test instead of just thinking about it.
dtuuri
Final Approach
BTDT, a lot. Here's what it looks like:Then there's this belated slip attempt that went the "slow" way over the top, but unfortunately not slow enough.
But these aren't for you. If they were, you'd be inclined to reply.
dtuuri
denverpilot
Tied Down
You said no one gave the caveat of power. I did and you completely ignored it.
It's a lot of work to get a 172 to go over the top power off. Damn near impossible without forcing it with a dive to gain airspeed and accelerating the stall process, from a slip.
Change the power setting or add power (and a lot of it) and yes, that'll start the very slow roll to the right and a slightly faster roll to the left.
Meanwhile the yoke and your butt are both buffeting and telling you things about what's going on, especially power off. The standard "turn to final" scenario.
It's the massive sink rate that gets people slipping around the final corner and trying to hold the nose up. No one here has said its 100% impossible to stall and spin but that's a very long process with a lot of stuff coming up at you in the windshield much more rapidly than 5 seconds before you manhandled the poor airplane into the massively cross controlled state to even start the process.
You then double down and show a reenactment of a Cirrus crash when we were speaking of Cessna behavior? Yes. Different airplanes fly differently.
You've probably got a smartphone. Let's see even a crappy cell phone video of a C-172 slipping turn with power off that rolls over the top into a spin, starting from your choice of a normal approach speed either straight and level, or in a 500 FPM descending turn like one would *typically* be shooting for on a base to final turn.
We've got Jesse's video and you've said it wasn't right in some fashion, so post a video and educate. I'm open to seeing it.
I know of only a single 172 I've ever flown that exhibited any "fast" roll behavior at any sort of stall and it was because it was a totally clapped out rental that had such awful rigging that it needed massive amounts of right rudder to go anywhere in a straight line. Since a left spin is a touch easier to start in a 172, if you crossed it up with left aileron it would develop a wing drop very quickly in a slip but it still showed almost no tendency to try to go over the top.
But like I've said, just shoot a crap video and post it. I for one, want to see it and see if you're adding power at the nose drop/stall buffet or exactly what you're doing in a 172 to get the behavior you're describing and how much control input and holding it against heavy pressure you need to get it to happen.
Sure, switch to a Cirrus, all bets are off and many other types. I'll let the Cirrus drivers speak up for their airframes. My only contention thus far was I simply don't believe from having FORCED numerous 172s into spins, and forced is the correct word, it's a non-insignificant amount of WORK to get a 172 to flip over and spin, I've never seen the scenario you describe as generating anything except a massive sink rate and a solid roll toward the stalled wing.
Hell, in some 172s to go right you really had to lock the ailerons over hard to the stop to get it to go at all, and it always required adding power to speed it up to a speed anyone might call "fast enough to surprise someone".
I'm sure that one badly misrigged 172 could be gotten to do some things quicker but we didn't spin that one much. It was such a PITA to fly it seemed most instructors just put students in it for long X-Cs just to see if they noticed it wouldn't hold a heading. LOL. It was the "aww crap, the schedule's full... do we really have to fly that POS? I think I'd rather cancel. Seriously. Check tomorrow's schedule.", airplane. Haha.
Post the video. Cessna, power off, slip results in a spin entry. I really do want to see it. I'd go try it myself but can't do it in the 182 and I'm not going to go join a club and pay dues just to run an experiment that's already in my logbook.
Your point is fine that folks shouldn't read things on forums and believe them. Easy fix for that. Go find the rare CFI that's left out there that isn't bothered by spins in a 172 and try to make one do it. I'll always recommend to anyone to go load the airplane into the Utility category box and just go find out rather than read crap on a forum. Goes for spins, and all sorts of other stuff you simply won't learn until you figure out that airplanes doing perfect little squared off traffic patterns aren't really exhibiting normal 3-dimensional behavior native to airplanes. Curving approach paths? Gah! Those aren't FAA approved "stabilized approaches"! Slipping with flaps?! Good lord man, you're going to DIE! LOL... etc.
New pilots, yes. The colloquial "we" (in aviation in general) teach them a recipe for pattern work they can follow and process and do and repeat it so they can "proficiently" fly the airplane that one way. Not a bad starting point at all. But like someone else pointed out, they've run into the pilot that can't handle not doing the one-notch of flap, turn, new slower speed, one-more-notch, turn slightly slower speed, etc... pattern recipe. Eventually you have to try other things (at altitude, with an instructor on board, at first) to really get a feel for the sights and sounds of the odd-ball flight path and control inputs to learn the finer points of what's really going on with that particular airframe.
to find a rigger we trust with the Robby kit, and get it "right".
I think even a crappy phone video showing the behavior you're arguing about -- saying it's a given that the airplane in a slip will drop the high wing and fling itself around into a spin -- would be highly educational to leave on this thread for those dreaded newbies to find and view.
If you want to wander off into CGI crashes of Cirri, no problem. At least for my input, I stuck to my experience in the Skyhawks. And they're all I commented on.
Show it. Skyhawk no power added, slipping into an over the top spin. I really do want to see it.
It's a lot of work to get a 172 to go over the top power off. Damn near impossible without forcing it with a dive to gain airspeed and accelerating the stall process, from a slip.
Change the power setting or add power (and a lot of it) and yes, that'll start the very slow roll to the right and a slightly faster roll to the left.
Meanwhile the yoke and your butt are both buffeting and telling you things about what's going on, especially power off. The standard "turn to final" scenario.
It's the massive sink rate that gets people slipping around the final corner and trying to hold the nose up. No one here has said its 100% impossible to stall and spin but that's a very long process with a lot of stuff coming up at you in the windshield much more rapidly than 5 seconds before you manhandled the poor airplane into the massively cross controlled state to even start the process.
You then double down and show a reenactment of a Cirrus crash when we were speaking of Cessna behavior? Yes. Different airplanes fly differently.
You've probably got a smartphone. Let's see even a crappy cell phone video of a C-172 slipping turn with power off that rolls over the top into a spin, starting from your choice of a normal approach speed either straight and level, or in a 500 FPM descending turn like one would *typically* be shooting for on a base to final turn.
We've got Jesse's video and you've said it wasn't right in some fashion, so post a video and educate. I'm open to seeing it.
I know of only a single 172 I've ever flown that exhibited any "fast" roll behavior at any sort of stall and it was because it was a totally clapped out rental that had such awful rigging that it needed massive amounts of right rudder to go anywhere in a straight line. Since a left spin is a touch easier to start in a 172, if you crossed it up with left aileron it would develop a wing drop very quickly in a slip but it still showed almost no tendency to try to go over the top.
But like I've said, just shoot a crap video and post it. I for one, want to see it and see if you're adding power at the nose drop/stall buffet or exactly what you're doing in a 172 to get the behavior you're describing and how much control input and holding it against heavy pressure you need to get it to happen.
Sure, switch to a Cirrus, all bets are off and many other types. I'll let the Cirrus drivers speak up for their airframes. My only contention thus far was I simply don't believe from having FORCED numerous 172s into spins, and forced is the correct word, it's a non-insignificant amount of WORK to get a 172 to flip over and spin, I've never seen the scenario you describe as generating anything except a massive sink rate and a solid roll toward the stalled wing.
Hell, in some 172s to go right you really had to lock the ailerons over hard to the stop to get it to go at all, and it always required adding power to speed it up to a speed anyone might call "fast enough to surprise someone".
I'm sure that one badly misrigged 172 could be gotten to do some things quicker but we didn't spin that one much. It was such a PITA to fly it seemed most instructors just put students in it for long X-Cs just to see if they noticed it wouldn't hold a heading. LOL. It was the "aww crap, the schedule's full... do we really have to fly that POS? I think I'd rather cancel. Seriously. Check tomorrow's schedule.", airplane. Haha.
Post the video. Cessna, power off, slip results in a spin entry. I really do want to see it. I'd go try it myself but can't do it in the 182 and I'm not going to go join a club and pay dues just to run an experiment that's already in my logbook.
Your point is fine that folks shouldn't read things on forums and believe them. Easy fix for that. Go find the rare CFI that's left out there that isn't bothered by spins in a 172 and try to make one do it. I'll always recommend to anyone to go load the airplane into the Utility category box and just go find out rather than read crap on a forum. Goes for spins, and all sorts of other stuff you simply won't learn until you figure out that airplanes doing perfect little squared off traffic patterns aren't really exhibiting normal 3-dimensional behavior native to airplanes. Curving approach paths? Gah! Those aren't FAA approved "stabilized approaches"! Slipping with flaps?! Good lord man, you're going to DIE! LOL... etc.
New pilots, yes. The colloquial "we" (in aviation in general) teach them a recipe for pattern work they can follow and process and do and repeat it so they can "proficiently" fly the airplane that one way. Not a bad starting point at all. But like someone else pointed out, they've run into the pilot that can't handle not doing the one-notch of flap, turn, new slower speed, one-more-notch, turn slightly slower speed, etc... pattern recipe. Eventually you have to try other things (at altitude, with an instructor on board, at first) to really get a feel for the sights and sounds of the odd-ball flight path and control inputs to learn the finer points of what's really going on with that particular airframe.
to find a rigger we trust with the Robby kit, and get it "right".
I think even a crappy phone video showing the behavior you're arguing about -- saying it's a given that the airplane in a slip will drop the high wing and fling itself around into a spin -- would be highly educational to leave on this thread for those dreaded newbies to find and view.
If you want to wander off into CGI crashes of Cirri, no problem. At least for my input, I stuck to my experience in the Skyhawks. And they're all I commented on.
Show it. Skyhawk no power added, slipping into an over the top spin. I really do want to see it.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Sorry, it must have been buried in your post. Kudos.
...
Who said newbies shouldn't have power? Aren't today's pilots taught to approach under power? And what difference does it make if it's from wings level or banked in a slip on final (I've never been discussing the 'base to final' turn here)? A pilot who unexpectedly loses control isn't going to recover in time either way.
No, I don't have a smart phone (and don't text either). Nor do I have a medical, but I'm trying to get an SI. When I do, I'll start instructing in a C-172. Here's a quick demo showing how easy a 172 can spin. Historically, pilot's have managed to lose control all the time, probably because of distracting factors like an obscured horizon, turbulence, etc., so why tell newbies it's impossible to hurt yourself from practicing slips? I'd rather encourage them to be careful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqn_3p-x2rc
dtuuri
What newbie is slipping the plane with power on? Usually one doesn't slip until the throttle is closed and are still hot and high.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Sure, if you're trying to lose altitude and know what you're doing unless you're just out experimenting to try out some theory you heard on the internet. Or are landing in a crosswind and favor a slip over a crab while approaching.
Btw, slipping "nose low" might help avoid a stall, but it also might add too much speed for a short field. To be really effective as a technique to steepen an approach over trees into a short field--you may well have to have the nose high and be uncomfortably close to the stall. Forward-slipping, nose low, to a 5000' runway with clear approaches may not be relevant.
dtuuri
Whether I am slipping or not, uncomfortably close to stall (although at that point in an approach I'm intentionally and comfortably close to stall) I'm at the exact same risk because if I stall I can let go of the rudder before I spin. Either way I'm going to stall in, although I may be in better condition to recover the stall since I will be overcoming my lack of energy as I release the rudder when the low wing starts to rise.
Clark1961
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I think these two sentences say everything that needs to be said about you.
retailguy
Line Up and Wait
All of these things you've been discussing bring in variables that were not part of the conversation. Every single person on here has acknowledged you can spin a 172. Betcha a lot of us have done it too.
But we were talking about slipping. If you're doing a proper slip, you are not going to spin a 172. I would maintain that if you're doing an improper slip, you're still not going to spin a 172.
Honestly, if you have a 5000 foot runway, you have no need to slip. If you're slipping for a short field, you planned horribly and you need to go around and try again, or you're in an emergency. And that's why we practice proper procedure.
Your video doesn't include a slip to a spin. Show us THAT. That's what we want to see. I don't think there is a person in these rooms that doesn't believe you can spin a 172. But, the odds of doing that in a slip - almost impossible.
BTW - you don't need a medical to fly. You can fly with someone you know who can be PIC. That person will also loan you their smartphone. Stop making excuses and show us how its done.
It's about time you let someone critique you the way you dish it out. It might give you a little perspective on how wrong you can be. Or it might give the newbie pilots both of us are so concerned about a vision for who's advice they can ignore moving forward.
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