When is Clearance Delivery required for a VFR pilot?

[woodchucker]

I did my PPL training at a Bravo airport, so after ATIS, clearance was the next radio call. I currently fly out of an airport under the Bravo shelf (KBTF), and don't use clearance delivery.

I'm planning a trip to Vegas this week, and will be flying into North Las Vegas (KVGT). The TAC supplemental chart indicates that clearance is required flying out of KVGT on Rocks 2 Departure. The first sentence leads off with: "After receiving clearance...."

Question 1: when is clearance delivery a mandated call? I assume that any airport within the surface Bravo area is, but when else? Other forums I found people said that the ATIS recording will specify that, but KSLC's doesn't. Neither does KVGT's. I don't see it in the A/FD as a required call either.

Question 2: can I still use clearance delivery out of KBTF? It is listed in the A/FD frequency list. If so, what is the benefit? Will they give me my Bravo transition squawk code then so I don't have to fiddle with Xponder codes while maneuvering low in a terrain and airspace restricted area?

As always, thanks in advance!

 

[poadeleted20]

Question 1: when is clearance delivery a mandated call? I assume that any airport within the surface Bravo area is, but when else?

Also any airport with Class C airspace to the surface and a CD freq. And, of course, if you're departing IFR at any airport with a clearance delivery frequency. In some cases, when departing from a non-B/C towered airport, you can get a squawk and freq for flight following from CD (if they have one -- otherwise, try ground) before taxi, but it's not a required call.

Question 2: can I still use clearance delivery out of KBTF? It is listed in the A/FD frequency list. If so, what is the benefit? Will they give me my Bravo transition squawk code then so I don't have to fiddle with Xponder codes while maneuvering low in a terrain and airspace restricted area?

Since BTF is under the SLC B-space but it inside it, there is no requirement to call SLC CD before departing BTF under VFR. If you're planning to enter the B-space, you might try them to see if they'll give you the necessary frequency and squawk before takeoff -- some places will, some won't; someone based around SLC can probably tell you how they do things there. And if you want flight following away from there outside the B-space, you can try that, too, but they may just tell you to call them once airborne.

 

[jordane93]

At the local Class C airport by my airport, you listen to the ATIS and you'll hear that ALL pilots are required to contact clearance delivery before taxiing.

 

[woodchucker]

Jordan - seems strange you get that message on your ATIS but not all airports do!

Ron - usually I call up SL Tower for Bravo transitions, and they give me the xponder code, but it would be so much better if I can get the code on the ground through clearance. I'll be going on a short flight Tuesday so will give it a shot then.

 

[96gs917]

At the local Class C airport by my airport, you listen to the ATIS and you'll hear that ALL pilots are required to contact clearance delivery before taxiing.

Unless your staying in the pattern.

 

[flyingron]

Actually most class C's in my experience will take you on ground.
Most class B's want you to call CD.

I almost always (absent some statement on the ATIS) call CD. If they want me to make the request with ground, I'll then do so.

 

[BillTIZ]

As an experienced VGT local pilot.

Do not expect to be cleared up through the LAS Class B on the Rocks 2 Departure.

It conflicts with Runway 25 departures from LAS that either turn right and depart northeast, or turn left and depart for Southern California. And if the are landing on Rwy 7 as they were this afternoon, the Rocks Departure crosses the final approach course.

If you really want to fly the rocks departure, expect to stay below the Class B airspace at all times, which will really put you down in the rocks SW of LAS where the airspace is still at 5000MSL with terrain quickly approaching 5600 near the oasys intersection.

Your best bet if going to SoCal, is to fly west from VGT to Red Rocks golf course, clear the Class B and then climb southbound. Watch the 7000 ft Class B airspace as you round Mt Potosi.

You can get Class B xpndr code and comm freq for talking to LAS Approach, but with a recommended heading and "remain clear of class B". If you do get a class b clearance it will be after you are radar identified by TRACON. VGT ground freq will get you the xpndr data, let them know your plan on initial call up.

Nxxx, at (location on airport) VFR to Xxx to the SW, request Class B flight following, information X-ray.

 

[woodchucker]

BTIZ:

I will be heading northeast to SLC. I've actually been fretting over the departure procedures, because as published they do get you dang close to the ground dang quickly. Plus the Rocks departure puts you right into Bravo so would need to guarantee clearance for that bit.

What do you recommend? Get clearance and follow their vectors? Or scootch out under Bravo and stay well clear of the airspace?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Actually most class C's in my experience will take you on ground.

That seems to be localized. To contrast, flying in the northeast, southeast, Rocky Mountain region and Hawaii, all of the ARSA (old term) and Class C airports I have flown into over the past 25 years have wanted you to contact CD for departure instructions.

For something totally different (at least in my experience), at Maui's Class C, GA aircraft don't talk to Ground (at least as of the last time I had a chance to fly there).

 

[Frogs97]

I was wondering the same, just this weekend. I was considering a trip to Addison (KADS). It's a delta airport that is under the DFW/DAL bravo. The A/FD lists tower, ground and CD. I was curious about departing VFR and if the process is any different if I'm departing VFR but want FF?

 

[kenjr]

I was wondering the same, just this weekend. I was considering a trip to Addison (KADS). It's a delta airport that is under the DFW/DAL bravo. The A/FD lists tower, ground and CD. I was curious about departing VFR and if the process is any different if I'm departing VFR but want FF?

I just flew for the first time into Hooks which is in Houston, not Dallas of course...but it's a Class D tucked under the Houston Bravo and very close to Bush Intercontinental Airport.

Getting out was easy - Hooks is also towered and you just call up ground (their ATIS doesn't say anything about it - so I assumed ground would cover it even though they have a CD frequency listed). They just tell you to stay under the bravo shelf (which there is 2000') and call Houston Departure and they'll tell you what to do. They will give you a code and can setup FF as well and when you switch over to departure they'll obviously be watching you and will know where you are going so when they vector you around they'll eventually get you pointed in the right direction.

In our case we were leaving Hooks and flying down to Galveston so they ran us right through downtown Houston telling us to visually fly I-10 and to stay under 2000' all the way to the ship channel and then they turned us south and let us fly on our own with no altitude restrictions for the last few miles we were in the bravo. Houston is similar to Dallas in that there are two big airports relatively close together in bravo space so expect them to vector you around with altitude restrictions...probably staying under the bravo for some time.

 

[deyoung]

For one more data point, Tucson always wants all departures to contact CD --- even if you are just staying in the pattern. You have to check the ATIS; sometimes if it's slow CD will be "closed" and they want you to call ground for clearance. That's always on the ATIS though.

 

[Frogs97]

In our case we were leaving Hooks and flying down to Galveston so they ran us right through downtown Houston telling us to visually fly I-10 and to stay under 2000' all the way to the ship channel and then they turned us south and let us fly on our own with no altitude restrictions for the last few miles we were in the bravo. Houston is similar to Dallas in that there are two big airports relatively close together in bravo space so expect them to vector you around with altitude restrictions...probably staying under the bravo for some time.

Looky here ... one more thing I had been wondering about. Last time we went to Galveston, the boys saw the runway lights as we crossed the causeway, and said "Dad, the next time we come down, we ARE flying here, right?". Been planning and mentally flying the route ever since, but didn't know what to expect in the Houston area on in to Galveston.

For one more data point, Tucson always wants all departures to contact CD --- even if you are just staying in the pattern. You have to check the ATIS; sometimes if it's slow CD will be "closed" and they want you to call ground for clearance. That's always on the ATIS though.

So, really it seems the answer is "It depends"? Try either ground or CD and if you guess wrong, they will (hopefully politely) tell you to go to the other?

 

[deyoung]

So, really it seems the answer is "It depends"? Try either ground or CD and if you guess wrong, they will (hopefully politely) tell you to go to the other?

Well, you don't have to guess because it's always in the ATIS... but yes, if you start with the wrong one they will ask you to contact the other first.

 

[dans2992]

Well, you don't have to guess because it's always in the ATIS... but yes, if you start with the wrong one they will ask you to contact the other first.

Maybe at Tucson, but I've been places where it's not on the ATIS, and they get huffy if you call ground before CD (or vice versa, if that's what they wanted)...

 

[woodchucker]

Maybe at Tucson, but I've been places where it's not on the ATIS, and they get huffy if you call ground before CD (or vice versa, if that's what they wanted)...

Agreed, it isn't always in the ATIS. I guess if they get huffy they will just have to get over it, or publish clear requirements for pilots to follow. I'm glad I'm not the only one a bit confused over this.

 

[Ravioli]

My experience at FTW (under the DFW B) is that CD is used for IFR and Ground will hand out FF info like chocolates.

My assumption is that this is another "work load" oriented item. I've never had ground tell me to make the request to CD, but when I first started flying from there and I was on CD they've told me "on request, monitor ground"

 

[BillTIZ]

BTIZ:

I will be heading northeast to SLC. I've actually been fretting over the departure procedures, because as published they do get you dang close to the ground dang quickly. Plus the Rocks departure puts you right into Bravo so would need to guarantee clearance for that bit.

What do you recommend? Get clearance and follow their vectors? Or scootch out under Bravo and stay well clear of the airspace?

Departing VGT for SLC, let ground at VGT know on initial call up. Expect a recommended heading of about 300-340, a squawk and a freq for Nellis Departure. They control the north half of the Class B.

On departure tower will clear you to contact Nellis. You'll get a radar ID, maybe a couple of vectors and cleared into the Class B and pretty soon you'll be cleared on course. Their traffic is in and out of Nellis to the MOA and return. They want to get you up to your cruise altitude as fast as they can so they can get their arrivals below you on the ILS into Nellis.

There is a way to sneak out to the NE under the ClassB, you need to hug rocks and hit a pass then head for the dry lake north of Nellis. But really not needed.

Nellis (military) is much easier to work with than McCarran (govt).

The rocks departure will not get you to SLC. It was built into the original Class B design many many many years ago for getting from VGT to SoCal and although published as an arrival/departure route, TRACON will not normally give you a clearance into the class b along that route.

 

[kenjr]

So, really it seems the answer is "It depends"? Try either ground or CD and if you guess wrong, they will (hopefully politely) tell you to go to the other?

My experience is that if they want you to contact C/D then they'll tell you in ATIS so they don't have to keep sending folks around when they call in.

If I don't hear any specific directions at a Class D then I'm talking to ground. At a Charlie you will most likely be talking to C/D and definitely at a Bravo.

 

[midlifeflyer]

So, really it seems the answer is "It depends"? Try either ground or CD and if you guess wrong, they will (hopefully politely) tell you to go to the other?

It is. If I don't know, like KenJr I go to ground at Class D and CD at Classes C and B. So far, I have never been corrected. Not once in 25 years.

I might know for one of three reasons. (1) the ATIS broadcast might tell me (it's amazing how many pilots listen for the winds, altimeter and runway and block out the rest); (2) prior experience; (3) I could ask someone, "Hey, any special procedures here on calling Ground or CD for VFR departures?"

 

[Timmer]

It is. If I don't know, like KenJr I go to ground at Class D and CD at Classes C and B. So far, I have never been corrected. Not once in 25 years.

I might know for one of three reasons. (1) the ATIS broadcast might tell me (it's amazing how many pilots listen for the winds, altimeter and runway and block out the rest); (2) prior experience; (3) I could ask someone, "Hey, any special procedures here on calling Ground or CD for VFR departures?"

I met one of the local controllers at MYF and he said it's amazing the number of times there's a NOTAM in the ATIS which states runway 23 is closed and pilots call up, "Request 23 for take-off, information X." "Cessna, confirm you checked ATIS?" "Affirmative!" "Go back and listen and call me back."

 

[woodchucker]

So I gave clearance delivery a shot today from my airport under the Bravo shelf. While the controller entertained my call, he didn't offer up the squawk code on the ground which is what I was hoping for.

Thanks Bill (BTIZ), I wasn't sure if there was another standard departure out of that region or not. No need to play games ducking under Bravo. I would rather have that extra set of eyes on me in congested regions anyways.

Thanks also Mark, that is a clear and concise answer.

 

[scooter]

Also any airport with Class C airspace to the surface and a CD freq.

If departing from a Class C satellite airport inside the Class C airspace (i.e. to the ground) and the satellite airport does not have a tower, then calling CD is not required. You can depart and contact the Class C approach as soon as convenient.
91.130(c)(2)(ii).