When did you start your night work?

O

Owad1971

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Owad1971
Hey Guys and Gals,

Another question related to a prior post- When did you start getting some night pattern work in? So far I have soloed (including 3 supervised), but since I work M-F I would like to get "Sign-Off" for at least night time pattern work.

I am thinking I want to at least take advantage of the reduced activity during the evenings 8-10pm so I don't get bogged down in the new Long Island Weekend Monsoon season. What should I be asking of my CFI to get at least the night part squared away?

Juggling a full time job and family responsibilities really limits my flying to 1X per weekend. If I could get an evening of night T&Gs I can still keep momentum when the weather crappy on weekends.
 
By "sign off" do you mean getting your night requirements done or a SOLO night endorsement?

Normally I work on night stuff after solo, and the night x-country after the first solo x-country.

I have never signed a student off for night solo, nor do I know any CFI who has.
 
Doing night solo isn't a sign off I don't think. Read in a book that the author would never fly at night in a signal engine airplane - that's when accidents happen. :)

As far as when we did it - we did it when "night time" was early enough that I didn't have to be at the airport at 10p waiting for the sun to set (so we did it mid January - sure it was freaking cold but the sun goes down around 8p)
 
NineThreeKilo said:
By "sign off" do you mean getting your night requirements done or a SOLO night endorsement?

Normally I work on night stuff after solo, and the night x-country after the first solo x-country.

I have never signed a student off for night solo, nor do I know any CFI who has.
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I was signed off for night solo.

I started my night almost immediately after day solo.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
I have never signed a student off for night solo, nor do I know any CFI who has.
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I was signed off for night solo many years ago, and had quite a few solo night hours by the time I took my checkride. I solo most of my primary students at night, but leave it up to them. If they want to do more night solo I allow it.
 
I was never signed off for night solo and I don't think the basic 3 hours of night XC + landings is enough to be safe at night. Of course I am in Northern Nevada with high elevation and lots of terrain around.
 
LDJones said:
I was signed off for night solo many years ago, and had quite a few solo night hours by the time I took my checkride. I solo most of my primary students at night, but leave it up to them. If they want to do more night solo I allow it.
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Yep it's a endorsement
Presolo flight training at night: section 61.87(c) and (o)


We often get a gnarly marine layer after the sunsets around here and I'm just not rocking a set large enough to have student pilots flying on my ticket when there is a good chance that a 3-500' OVC will roll in VERY quickly.
 
EdFred said:
I was signed off for night solo.

I started my night almost immediately after day solo.
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Ditto. Had to do a lot of my training late evening/night time. CFI wanted to be sure that if I was solo and landed at civil twilight + several minutes that I would be legal. Did several solos at civil twilight + a bunch of minutes.

Ongoing joke was that I was going to ask the DPE to do the checkride at night because I didn't know how to fly when the sun was up. :D


Mike
 
After I had got in some night training, I asked my CFII if I needed anything in my log book to solo at night. He said I was good to go with my solo endorsement. So whats the deal? Is he mistaken and I have broken the rules already?
 
JasonM said:
After I had got in some night training, I asked my CFII if I needed anything in my log book to solo at night. He said I was good to go with my solo endorsement. So whats the deal? Is he mistaken and I have broken the rules already?
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If you were flying solo after civil twilight...yes, your CFI was mistaken. See the FAR references above from NineThreeKilo.


Mike
 
MikeELP said:
If you were flying solo after civil twilight...yes, your CFI was mistaken. See the FAR references above from NineThreeKilo.


Mike
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Well. doo doo. oh well, I don't plan on doing any more night solo until after I get my PPL, so I wont bring it up. I'm not supposed to know more about the FARS than he is. :)
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Yep it's a endorsement
Presolo flight training at night: section 61.87(c) and (o)


We often get a gnarly marine layer after the sunsets around here and I'm just not rocking a set large enough to have student pilots flying on my ticket when there is a good chance that a 3-500' OVC will roll in VERY quickly.
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Definitely requires a separate endorsement.

I supervise all solos, day or night, and won't approve them if there's any chance of weather rolling in. Thankfully we don't have much in the way of suddenly-appearing weather conditions.
 
Thanks All for the info. I was hoping to use the night solos to build hours- but it does not appear that my school is in the habit of giving those endorsements:mad2: ...not even for pattern work!!

I have been up at night with an instructor from my flying club and I actually found it easier to work in the pattern...The area is lit up like Christmas-see-..and you can get up and down quite expeditiously (no extended downwinds to Bermuda).:dunno::dunno:
 

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Many don't do night solo endorsements. CYA thing I guess.

You can fly all you want after you pass your checkride.
 
DesertNomad said:
I was never signed off for night solo and I don't think the basic 3 hours of night XC + landings is enough to be safe at night. Of course I am in Northern Nevada with high elevation and lots of terrain around.
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I forget how terrain varies across the country. I'm at 400 ft AGL, and that doesn't change for 100 miles in any direction.
 
rbridges said:
I forget how terrain varies across the country. I'm at 400 ft AGL, and that doesn't change for 100 miles in any direction.
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You shouldn't be posting on the forum while flying---I suggest you get back to 0 AGL before going online.
 
I usually don't do night XC with students till they've nearly completed their hood time. It's important out to be able to control the plane by reference to the instruments out here most nights.

As for night solo, well, just hasn't been needed for any of my students.
 
Night solo? That came with my certificate.

Night dual, including the dual cross-country. came after the first (daytime) solo cross-country.

Frankly, I don't see the need for night solo unless you live far north and train in winter. AND there is no terrain around. An unlit mountain can only be seen with a full moon and good dark adaptation.
 
Owad1971 said:
Thanks All for the info. I was hoping to use the night solos to build hours- but it does not appear that my school is in the habit of giving those endorsements:mad2: ...not even for pattern work!!
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Don't hit your head too much. Most CFIs don't do night solo endorsements.

At the same time, I don't know what your situation is but since night isn't until well after 9 PM in a large part of the country these days even a CFI who does give night solo endorsements might hesitate if that's at the end of a daytime work or school schedule for you.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Don't hit your head too much. Most CFIs don't do night solo endorsements.

At the same time, I don't know what your situation is but since night isn't until well after 9 PM in a large part of the country these days even a CFI who does give night solo endorsements might hesitate if that's at the end of a daytime work or school schedule for you.
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I work in Manhattan in a financial services outfit...and fly out of Farmingdale.... so 9-1030 pm would work best for me. I can try to get out of work at 5pm:nonod: (like it was 1962), commute, eat something and get my Zen going for some t&g work.....

at least that was the plan...going back to :mad2::mad2::mad2:...at least with those I get results:crazy:
 
Owad1971 said:
I work in Manhattan in a financial services outfit...and fly out of Farmingdale.... so 9-1030 pm would work best for me. I can try to get out of work at 5pm:nonod: (like it was 1962), commute, eat something and get my Zen going for some t&g work.....

at least that was the plan...going back to :mad2::mad2::mad2:...at least with those I get results:crazy:
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I'm hearing alarm bells here.

Look up IMSAFE in your Airplane Flying Handbook.

I can't see you operating an aircraft safely after a 12+ hour shift at a day job, especially as a student pilot. Note that Part 121 pilots are forbidden to do that, for extremely good reasons. 14 CFR 121.471(b)(1) requires 9 hours of rest in the previous 24 hours, prior to a flight of less than 8 hours. 14 CFR 121.471(f) explicitly excludes the commute for rest. While this doesn't apply to you as a student pilot (and it doesn't mention a non-aviation work assignment), think really hard about why that might be there.

Do this on weekends if that's the only time you can spare. If you aren't adequately rested, your landings are going to SUCK and you aren't going to learn anything.
 
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MAKG1 said:
I'm hearing alarm bells here.

Look up IMSAFE in your Airplane Flying Handbook.

I can't see you operating an aircraft safely after a 12+ hour shift at a day job, especially as a student pilot. Note that Part 121 pilots are forbidden to do that, for extremely good reasons. 14 CFR 121.471(b)(1) requires 9 hours of rest in the previous 24 hours, prior to a flight of less than 8 hours. 14 CFR 121.471(f) explicitly excludes the commute for rest. While this doesn't apply to you as a student pilot (and it doesn't mention a non-aviation work assignment), think really hard about why that might be there.

Do this on weekends if that's the only time you can spare. If you aren't adequately rested, your landings are going to SUCK and you aren't going to learn anything.
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Oh please. Thousands of people got their pilot certs by flying after a day at the office. Just because you lack the mental acuity to do so doesn't mean others do.
 
I never got a night solo endorsement. Obviously they exist. I did do my night training for private after solo and after I flew a couple of XCs.

For my IR I did almost all of the training at night and even did my check ride at night.
 
EdFred said:
Oh please. Thousands of people got their pilot certs by flying after a day at the office. Just because you lack the mental acuity to do so doesn't mean others do.
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Umm, thousands of people do after a 12+ hour shift?

I really doubt that. Care to back that up?

Maybe an 8 hour shift. There is a huge difference.
 
I was never signed off for night solo work.

The night flying started after a few XC's were completed. We did hood work while the sun was setting and waiting for official "night time."
 
MAKG1 said:
Umm, thousands of people do after a 12+ hour shift?

I really doubt that. Care to back that up?

Maybe an 8 hour shift. There is a huge difference.
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Where did he say 12 hour shift? I can make things up too. You should never fly after a 8760 hour shift!!!!
 
EdFred said:
Where did he say 12 hour shift? I can make things up too. You should never fly after a 8760 hour shift!!!!
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He works financial in Manhattan. He's there at 9:30 at the absolute latest, and probably significantly earlier -- that's when the NYSE opens. He can't get to the airport before 21:30. Do the math.
 
MAKG1 said:
He works financial in Manhattan. He's there at 9:30 at the absolute latest, and probably significantly earlier -- that's when the NYSE opens. He can't get to the airport before 21:30. Do the math.
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But there is a minimum 90 minute commute between the two....
 
MAKG1 said:
He works financial in Manhattan. He's there at 9:30 at the absolute latest, and probably significantly earlier -- that's when the NYSE opens. He can't get to the airport before 21:30. Do the math.
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Traffic and eating can easily take up 3 hours. My math is fine.
 
EdFred said:
Traffic and eating can easily take up 3 hours. My math is fine.
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You would recommend flying after a three hour commute to a student? Remind me to stay away from your students. Good God, that's a bad idea, even if no work at all is involved. A student must be prepared to actually learn things or the time is wasted at best. And a solo student must be on his "A" game.
 
MAKG1 said:
I'm hearing alarm bells here.

Look up IMSAFE in your Airplane Flying Handbook.

I can't see you operating an aircraft safely after a 12+ hour shift at a day job, especially as a student pilot. Note that Part 121 pilots are forbidden to do that, for extremely good reasons. 14 CFR 121.471(b)(1) requires 9 hours of rest in the previous 24 hours, prior to a flight of less than 8 hours. 14 CFR 121.471(f) explicitly excludes the commute for rest. While this doesn't apply to you as a student pilot (and it doesn't mention a non-aviation work assignment), think really hard about why that might be there.

Do this on weekends if that's the only time you can spare. If you aren't adequately rested, your landings are going to SUCK and you aren't going to learn anything.
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1. If that was the case I would have never ever gotten my PPL, not to mention my IFR, nor the 450 or so hours I have flown since starting on my training for my PPL in 3-2010.
2. I think there is a huge difference between working 12 hours in an office, and working 12 hours on a plane, and working 12 hours doing hard labor.
3. The term 9 hours of rest is pretty much meaningless to me. Does that mean sleeping(in which case it is more than the recommended amount of sleep by the sleep studies? Does that mean 9 hours of watching TV? Does that mean 9 hours of not flying? I think we can all assume what it means, but 9 hours of rest is a pretty meaningless statement. Now maybe it is better defined somewhere else in the CFR. I do not know because I did not look that up.
4. The CFR refers to scheduled flight time which I take to mean schedule 121 commercial flying. In theory, and I am not a lawyer, and so I can be wrong, you could fly 8 hours for your commercial job, after doing an 8 hour personal flight in your personal aircraft and still be compliant with the regulation. I may be wrong but single hand flying a Cessna in most conditions, I would think would be more exhausting than flying a commercial jet with a copilot, or as a copilot.
5. I have flown many a time after a 12+ more shift and have been safer than after a quiet day where I only work 8 hours and decided not to fly that day.
6. I am a GA pilot and so the reg though interesting does not really apply to my flying, though believe me I do use IMSAFE, PAVE, and things to decide whether to fly or not. However, all because I worked 12 or more hours does not mean I am not going to fly, and because I worked 8 hours does not mean I am going to fly.
 
MAKG1 said:
You would recommend flying after a three hour commute to a student? Remind me to stay away from your students. Good God, that's a bad idea, even if no work at all is involved. A student must be prepared to actually learn things or the time is wasted at best. And a solo student must be on his "A" game.
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When I did my IR training, I didn't get to the airport till well after 7pm, and I left the office at 5. I was a horrible IR student. I finished with 40.2 hours of instrument. LIke I said, just because you think you lack the mental prowess to get it done, doesn't mean others do.
 
EdFred said:
When I did my IR training, I didn't get to the airport till well after 7pm, and I left the office at 5. I was a horrible IR student. I finished with 40.2 hours of instrument. LIke I said, just because you think you lack the mental prowess to get it done, doesn't mean others do.
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You did your IR training as a student pilot? You must be extremely low time then, as that rule only went into effect a year ago.

Stop giving bad advice to a student pilot.

I'm very much aware of how fatigue affects my performance. You're not if you think fatigue is not a factor. It is. It always is, to some extent. How much of an extent is a critical variable, and it's one that you had better get right if you're going to bet your life on it, as well as your passengers and any potential passers-by.

And, you really should know this. Hours and proficiency are not the same.
 
MAKG1 said:
You did your IR training as a student pilot? You must be extremely low time then, as that rule only went into effect a year ago.

Stop giving bad advice to a student pilot.

I'm very much aware of how fatigue affects my performance. You're not if you think fatigue is not a factor. It is. It always is, to some extent. How much of an extent is a critical variable, and it's one that you had better get right if you're going to bet your life on it, as well as your passengers and any potential passers-by.

And, you really should know this. Hours and proficiency are not the same.
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I am going to open my trap wide open. I am probably one of the world's greatest expert in work fatique from experience. I am not going to get into specifics, but I believe Dr Bruce probably can vouch for me on this one. The bottom line is every one is different, and if you try to say that how fatique affects one person is the same as another you are going to miss the boat. Likewise, different activities affect different people differently at different times and conversely the same activity may affect the same person differently at different times. There are some of us who could go from doing something for 24 hours and then drive 4 hours without blinking an eye(with no simulants either). Then there are those of us who could not drive an hour after 8 hours of restful sleep. That is what IMSAFE, and PAVE and the like is for. You need to determine individually and day by day whether you are safe to fly when you are intending to fly. You cannot lie to yourself, because it may not only be your life which you are affecting adversely, but others well. However, it is a falicy that you can use the same yardstick to measure any single person's fatique in relation to another person.
 
As someone who works with the sleep deprived -- I work on an airborne observatory -- everyone starts to F up at the end of an 8-10 hour flight, especially at 0430 when they have switched from day shift (but it happens even without that). Only the degree varies. We script everything to compensate for that. It sorta works, but it can break down when people deviate from the script.

The symptoms aren't that different from hypoxia. You don't know it when it's happening to you, unless you keep some sort of record. The lapses in judgment don't seem significant. But when there is a record, the effect is unmistakeable. And it may be more obvious to someone else.
 
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