When did you start your night work?

[EdFred]

You did your IR training as a student pilot? You must be extremely low time then, as that rule only went into effect a year ago.

Stop giving bad advice to a student pilot.

I'm very much aware of how fatigue affects my performance. You're not if you think fatigue is not a factor. It is. It always is, to some extent. How much of an extent is a critical variable, and it's one that you had better get right if you're going to bet your life on it, as well as your passengers and any potential passers-by.

And, you really should know this. Hours and proficiency are not the same.

Stop pretending everyone in the world is exactly like you. I know people that get 4 hours of sleep, no more. And they go go go no problem, and aren't fatigued at all. Even if they go to bed early, after 4 hours they are up, and ready to go, no alarm clock. I know others that are worthless unless they get 9-10 hours of sleep. Just because you can't handle it doesn't mean nobody can.

I went right from my private into my IR training. I was done with IR at just over 100 hours TT. Yeah, I was pretty much a student. Oh, yeah, and I did my private training after working 8-9 hours a day, too. The horror! The horror!

 

[MAKG1]

If you say so, Ed. We have over 120 people on our project, and none of them are allowed the latitude you want to give them, because, you know, actual research says it doesn't work.

But, you know better. Especially when the symptoms are that you don't realize you're impaired, at least at the mild stage. Yeah, right.

Everyone who flies an airplane is a human, like it or not. Some people who fly airplanes just don't have the judgment to know that.

 

[wabower]

You're either bluffing or ignorant of the business. Market hours and employee work hours aren't necessarily the same. Ask a former Chairman/CEO.

He works financial in Manhattan. He's there at 9:30 at the absolute latest, and probably significantly earlier -- that's when the NYSE opens. He can't get to the airport before 21:30. Do the math.

 

[douglas393]

If you say so, Ed. We have over 120 people on our project, and none of them are allowed the latitude you want to give them, because, you know, actual research says it doesn't work.

But, you know better. Especially when the symptoms are that you don't realize you're impaired, at least at the mild stage. Yeah, right.

Everyone who flies an airplane is a human, like it or not. Some people who fly airplanes just don't have the judgment to know that.

For some, it would be so nice if everyone acted the same way, but thankfully the world is not that way. Just because your in you extremely little corner of the universe people cannot not work more than 8 hours without becoming so fatigued that they cannot do their job, does not mean the rest of the world is that way. Fatique is an individual thing, and affects different people differently. Impairment is relative, and their is no doubt that I am different in my ability to think at the end of a 1 hour flight in CAVU conditions then in a 3 hour flight in hard IFR. Does that mean I should never ever fly in hard IFR. If we look at in your way of thinking yeah. In fact, if we look at in your way of thinking I probably should not cross out of bed if I have not gotten 8 hrs of sleep(I average 4 on a good day) because before that I am probably not capable of brushing my teeth without choking on the toothpaste.

The FAA in their infinite wisdom has decided for better or worse that by virtue of getting your PPL you are capable of making the decision as to whether you are capable of flying safely in given conditions.

As for research, I am sure I can find bonafide research out there that proves that the moon is made of swiss cheese, that the world is flat, and that Obama( I will not go there, sorry). Unfortunately, research is only as good as the study design, data aquisition, and data interpretation, and adequate abilities in these endeavors is often lacking in many of the papers I have had the misfortune to read, especially in the psychological journals.

 

[EdFred]

For some, it would be so nice if everyone acted the same way, but thankfully the world is not that way. Just because your in you extremely little corner of the universe people cannot not work more than 8 hours without becoming so fatigued that they cannot do their job, does not mean the rest of the world is that way. Fatique is an individual thing, and affects different people differently. Impairment is relative, and their is no doubt that I am different in my ability to think at the end of a 1 hour flight in CAVU conditions then in a 3 hour flight in hard IFR. Does that mean I should never ever fly in hard IFR. If we look at in your way of thinking yeah. In fact, if we look at in your way of thinking I probably should not cross out of bed if I have not gotten 8 hrs of sleep(I average 4 on a good day) because before that I am probably not capable of brushing my teeth without choking on the toothpaste.

The FAA in their infinite wisdom has decided for better or worse that by virtue of getting your PPL you are capable of making the decision as to whether you are capable of flying safely in given conditions.

As for research, I am sure I can find bonafide research out there that proves that the moon is made of swiss cheese, that the world is flat, and that Obama( I will not go there, sorry). Unfortunately, research is only as good as the study design, data aquisition, and data interpretation, and adequate abilities in these endeavors is often lacking in many of the papers I have had the misfortune to read, especially in the psychological journals.

He's in California. They get fatigued just thinking about working. Especially within 100 miles of Berkuhlee. "I haven't had my frappacino, I can't work another minute. What do you mean, I've only been here 35 minutes? It feels like foreeeeeever."

 

[bbchien]

I am going to open my trap wide open. I am probably one of the world's greatest expert in work fatique from experience. I am not going to get into specifics, but I believe Dr Bruce probably can vouch for me on this one. The bottom line is every one is different, and if you try to say that how fatique affects one person is the same as another you are going to miss the boat. Likewise, different activities affect different people differently at different times and conversely the same activity may affect the same person differently at different times. There are some of us who could go from doing something for 24 hours and then drive 4 hours without blinking an eye(with no simulants either). Then there are those of us who could not drive an hour after 8 hours of restful sleep. That is what IMSAFE, and PAVE and the like is for. You need to determine individually and day by day whether you are safe to fly when you are intending to fly. You cannot lie to yourself, because it may not only be your life which you are affecting adversely, but others well. However, it is a falicy that you can use the same yardstick to measure any single person's fatique in relation to another person.

THIS!

 

[MAKG1]

He's in California. They get fatigued just thinking about working. Especially within 100 miles of Berkuhlee. "I haven't had my frappacino, I can't work another minute. What do you mean, I've only been here 35 minutes? It feels like foreeeeeever."

Yup, you're real familiar with how a NASA airborne project works. Aren't you?

Thank you, Mr. Administrator. So, when did Berkeley get involved in our project?

It's true that there is variation in response. However -- and this is so important that you should repeat it to yourself several times -- the pilot in question is the wrong person to make that call. Just like you can't decide you're hypoxic based only on your gut feelings. You WILL get that wrong. By the time it's obvious to you that you are impaired, you have made quite a lot of errors, hopefully all too small to really hurt you or others.

 

[douglas393]

Yup, you're real familiar with how a NASA airborne project works. Aren't you?

Thank you, Mr. Administrator. So, when did Berkeley get involved in our project?

It's true that there is variation in response. However -- and this is so important that you should repeat it to yourself several times -- the pilot in question is the wrong person to make that call. Just like you can't decide you're hypoxic based only on your gut feelings. You WILL get that wrong. By the time it's obvious to you that you are impaired, you have made quite a lot of errors, hopefully all too small to really hurt you or others.

So what you are saying in effect is that I am never able to determine whether I am safe to fly because if I will only think I am not fatiqued when in fact I am fatiqued, but because I am fatiqued I am too impaired to tell that I am fatiqued.

 

[EdFred]

Yup, you're real familiar with how a NASA airborne project works. Aren't you?

Thank you, Mr. Administrator. So, when did Berkeley get involved in our project?

It's true that there is variation in response. However -- and this is so important that you should repeat it to yourself several times -- the pilot in question is the wrong person to make that call. Just like you can't decide you're hypoxic based only on your gut feelings. You WILL get that wrong. By the time it's obvious to you that you are impaired, you have made quite a lot of errors, hopefully all too small to really hurt you or others.

You completely missed the point. But since you're the only one who will ever know if I am fatigued or not, I will call you before all of my flights just to make sure that I'm not fatigued.

 

[douglas393]

You completely missed the point. But since you're the only one who will ever know if I am fatigued or not, I will call you before all of my flights just to make sure that I'm not fatigued.

I would not do that, cause he will be too fatiqued to tell if you are too fatiqued from those long shifts he has.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Well. doo doo. oh well, I don't plan on doing any more night solo until after I get my PPL, so I wont bring it up. I'm not supposed to know more about the FARS than he is.

Next lesson: Writing up an ASRS (NASA) report.

 

[EdFred]

I would not do that, cause he will be too fatiqued to tell if you are too fatiqued from those long shifts he has.

I'm gonna start wearing combat fatigues.

 

[AuntPeggy]

He works financial in Manhattan. He's there at 9:30 at the absolute latest, and probably significantly earlier -- that's when the NYSE opens. He can't get to the airport before 21:30. Do the math.

The NYSE is not the only "financial" institution. The hours of the NYSE are not necessarily the hours of all financial workers. For instance, when I was working in a "financial" position, my alternate started at noon.

 

[wabower]

Flying a light airplane must be a lot harder for you than for many others.

Yup, you're real familiar with how a NASA airborne project works. Aren't you?

Thank you, Mr. Administrator. So, when did Berkeley get involved in our project?

It's true that there is variation in response. However -- and this is so important that you should repeat it to yourself several times -- the pilot in question is the wrong person to make that call. Just like you can't decide you're hypoxic based only on your gut feelings. You WILL get that wrong. By the time it's obvious to you that you are impaired, you have made quite a lot of errors, hopefully all too small to really hurt you or others.

 

[Owad1971]

Umm, thousands of people do after a 12+ hour shift?

I really doubt that. Care to back that up?

Maybe an 8 hour shift. There is a huge difference.

Point taken...I certainly appreciate the advice to be mindful of the human factors. I don't move heavy furniture at work for 12hrs....and have trained after work regularly (2 foreign languages to conversational proficiency, 1/2 Marathons, EMT School, SCUBA School...etc.). I know when I have the mental ability to function after a day's work- Having one of "MY" activities after work kinda gets me through my day sometimes.
Point- watch for mental and physical fatigue- WILL DO!