When at an uncontrolled field

fiveoboy01 said:
NORDO is one thing but if you have a radio, sheesh... use it!
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I think NORDO is kind of bull crap in this day and age. Get a hand held. The ultralight guys do it, so can Grandpa in the Champ. Guys that fly NORDO are just plain lazy. They don't have to, so they don't. If you're going to give them a pass, give it to the guy in the Cirrus too.

Just my opinion.
 
Oddly, we have a professional pilot on the field. He is acknowledged as the best pilot around and other pilots want him along in their plane if they need some additional training. But, when he goes up in the Cub, he doesn't take a handheld. He is a purist, in his mind, and if it was equipment that the original Cubs didn't have, then he doesn't want to use it in the Cub. This is his "back to nature" moment -- how he relaxes.

We self-announce and we watch out for him.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Thanks, Bob. I couldn't find AC 90-42F on the link you provided. I was, however able to find it from your description. http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/ac90-42F.pdf. It doesn't really address whether it is necessary or expected to repead intentions, such as touch-and-go on each leg of the pattern. It simply says to report intentions from 10 miles out, then report each leg: downwind, base, and final.
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It is hard to find....the list of AC 90-x is not in numerical order...you have to scroll down to the 24th item. You are correct in what it does not say, but IMHO announcing touch-and-go or full stop when on final is a service to others in the pattern.

This AC must be due for replacement soon; it talks about Airport Advisory Areas where there is an FSS on the field...but there are only three such airports at present and I think that they are all in Alaska.

Bob
 
Sorry if us Westerners don't fit your mold of proper radio etiquette AP. ;)

But since I have a radio, I announce upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, final and how do ya do if there's traffic, and if there's no radio traffic, I still announce I'm landing at X field, and say something for any nordo's I'm not seeing.

I routinely fly mid-field crossovers to get a physical look at the sock if I'm unfamiliar or if my arrival angle dictates it. Even if we could do a straight in, or just enter base, I'll do a midfield entry sometimes just to get the lay of the land. We also have these animals called hogs and deer down here that like fields. So yeah, we get a little chatty maybe? ... :dunno:
 
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txflyer said:
Sorry if us Westerners don't fit your mold of proper radio etiquette AP. ;)

But since I have a radio, I announce upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, final and how do ya do if there's traffic, and if there's no radio traffic, I still announce I'm landing at X field, and say something for any nordo's I'm not seeing.

I routinely fly mid-field crossovers to get a physical look at the sock if I'm unfamiliar or if my arrival angle dictates it. Even if we could do a straight in, or just enter base, I'll do a midfield entry sometimes just to get the lay of the land. We also have these animals called hogs and deer down here that like fields. So yeah, we get a little chatty maybe? ... :dunno:
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Aren't you sweet.
 
txflyer said:
Sorry if us Westerners don't fit your mold of proper radio etiquette AP. ;)

But since I have a radio, I announce upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, final and how do ya do if there's traffic, and if there's no radio traffic, I still announce I'm landing at X field, and say something for any nordo's I'm not seeing.

I routinely fly mid-field crossovers to get a physical look at the sock if I'm unfamiliar or if my arrival angle dictates it. Even if we could do a straight in, or just enter base, I'll do a midfield entry sometimes just to get the lay of the land. We also have these animals called hogs and deer down here that like fields. So yeah, we get a little chatty maybe? ... :dunno:
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I'll second this.
I also announce turning departure when I might be in conflict with someone entering on the 45

(tends to be reassuring especially when one has 4-5 people in the pattern simultaneously)
 
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AuntPeggy said:
Oddly, we have a professional pilot on the field. He is acknowledged as the best pilot around and other pilots want him along in their plane if they need some additional training. But, when he goes up in the Cub, he doesn't take a handheld. He is a purist, in his mind, and if it was equipment that the original Cubs didn't have, then he doesn't want to use it in the Cub. This is his "back to nature" moment -- how he relaxes.

We self-announce and we watch out for him.
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I don't get it. Why use radios in one plane and not the other? Calls into question the value of the radio at all. Clearly your professional doesn't think radios are all that important. Should everyone just go NORDO?
 
Dav8or said:
I think NORDO is kind of bull crap in this day and age. Get a hand held. The ultralight guys do it, so can Grandpa in the Champ. Guys that fly NORDO are just plain lazy. They don't have to, so they don't. If you're going to give them a pass, give it to the guy in the Cirrus too.

Just my opinion.
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so your position is that "grandpa" (my oldest daughter is 11 so that is a stretch for me) should seek a field approval and pay the costs to change the type of magneto's in his champ (cub, culver, etc) so that he can use your handheld radio ?
 
Many pilots around here just talk to much. Reading a book from 10 miles out. We have two flight schools and two helicopter schools. Seems like they are being taught this.
 
JHW said:
so your position is that "grandpa" (my oldest daughter is 11 so that is a stretch for me) should seek a field approval and pay the costs to change the type of magneto's in his champ (cub, culver, etc) so that he can use your handheld radio ?
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Or, er, use batteries.

I am training in a cub that my instructor and I fly nordo most of the time so I'm not judging. It sharpens the snot out of see and avoid.
 
ChrisK said:
Or, er, use batteries.

I am training in a cub that my instructor and I fly nordo most of the time so I'm not judging. It sharpens the snot out of see and avoid.
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He is saying that 'grandpa' or me, has unshielded magneto's and you won't hear me or me you even if I use a handheld.


-VanDy
 
AuntPeggy said:
Thanks, Bob. I couldn't find AC 90-42F on the link you provided. I was, however able to find it from your description.
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Wow, great patience, AuntPeggy! You asked a question in the OP in 2007, and when Bob answers it in 2014, you are there to thank him right away.
 
VanDy said:
He is saying that 'grandpa' or me, has unshielded magneto's and you won't hear me or me you even if I use a handheld.


-VanDy
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Oh right. That was posted earlier. I forgot. Damn that tesla.
 
NoHeat said:
Wow, great patience, AuntPeggy! You asked a question in the OP in 2007, and when Bob answers it in 2014, you are there to thank him right away.
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I have a great deal of respect for Bob.
 
I appreciate hearing all calls when I am in the area of an uncontrolled field, but as others have said the tail number isn't much help most of the time. "Red and white cessna" is helpful.

Also, lot of people confuse upwind and departure leg.
 
Given there is no requirement for a radio, which seems astounding considering the layers of regulations intended to provide for safety, the things I fear most in uncontrolled are:

A. a guy with no radio
B. a guy not making position calls
C. a guy making incorrect position calls
D. incoming aircraft entering pattern on base, downwind or straight-in
E. runway incursions (two planes on rw at same time, taxiways busy)
F. helicopters, trikes, and everyone else mixing it up on weekend
 
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JHW said:
so your position is that "grandpa" (my oldest daughter is 11 so that is a stretch for me) should seek a field approval and pay the costs to change the type of magneto's in his champ (cub, culver, etc) so that he can use your handheld radio ?
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If there is an issue with radio interference from the magnetos as I guess you are suggesting, then yes I would. I do care about people other than myself. I would do that, but many will not because they don't have to.

So be it.

So, if everyone is OK with the guy in the Champ doing what is easiest, then I think we should all STFU and be OK with the Cirrus driver going NORDO and landing opposite whatever the traffic pattern happens to be. He's not breaking any regs and doesn't have to talk to you and he doesn't have to land the same direction as everyone else. Could be his hangar is at the end of the runway, so saves gas and it's the easiest thing for him to do.

In fact, since there are so few regs regarding uncontrolled fields, there is rarely anything anybody should ***** about. So to answer AP's original question, the answer should be, do whatever you want, just make turns in accordance with published traffic directions and don't cut anybody off on final. Whatever else you want to do with regards to patterns, runway selection, use of the radio, etc, is totally optional.
 
Dav8or said:
So, if everyone is OK with the guy in the Champ doing what is easiest, then I think we should all STFU and be OK with the Cirrus driver going NORDO and landing opposite whatever the traffic pattern happens to be. He's not breaking any regs and doesn't have to talk to you and he doesn't have to land the same direction as everyone else. Could be his hangar is at the end of the runway, so saves gas and it's the easiest thing for him to do.

In fact, since there are so few regs regarding uncontrolled fields, there is rarely anything anybody should ***** about. So to answer AP's original question, the answer should be, do whatever you want, just make turns in accordance with published traffic directions and don't cut anybody off on final. Whatever else you want to do with regards to patterns, runway selection, use of the radio, etc, is totally optional.
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I think you finally understand how it should be...
 
BG841 said:
I appreciate hearing all calls when I am in the area of an uncontrolled field, but as others have said the tail number isn't much help most of the time. "Red and white cessna" is helpful.

Also, lot of people confuse upwind and departure leg.
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Far be it from me to interrupt this discussion by citing another regulation that applies to all licensees:

From FCC regulations:


"87.107 Station identification.

(a) Aircraft station. Identify by one of the following means:


(1) Aircraft radio station call sign.

(2) The type of aircraft followed by the characters of the registration marking ("N" number) of the aircraft, omitting the prefix letter "N."

When communication is initiated by a ground station, an aircraft station may use the type of aircraft followed by the last three characters of the registration marking. Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, an aircraft being moved by maintenance personnel from one location in an airport to another location in that airport may be identified by a station identification consisting of the name of the company owning or operating the aircraft, followed by the word "Maintenance" and additional alphanumeric characters of the licensee's choosing.

(3) The FAA assigned radiotelephony designator of the aircraft operating organization followed by the flight identification number.

(4) An aircraft identification approved by the FAA for use by aircraft stations participating in an organized flying activity of short duration."

I won't deny that "red and white Cessna" conveys more information than the tail number, but the FCC requires that all transmissions contain the identifier of the transmitting station.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Far be it from me to interrupt this discussion by citing another regulation that applies to all licensees:

From FCC regulations:


"87.107 Station identification.

(a) Aircraft station. Identify by one of the following means:


(1) Aircraft radio station call sign.

(2) The type of aircraft followed by the characters of the registration marking ("N" number) of the aircraft, omitting the prefix letter "N."

When communication is initiated by a ground station, an aircraft station may use the type of aircraft followed by the last three characters of the registration marking. Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, an aircraft being moved by maintenance personnel from one location in an airport to another location in that airport may be identified by a station identification consisting of the name of the company owning or operating the aircraft, followed by the word "Maintenance" and additional alphanumeric characters of the licensee's choosing.

(3) The FAA assigned radiotelephony designator of the aircraft operating organization followed by the flight identification number.

(4) An aircraft identification approved by the FAA for use by aircraft stations participating in an organized flying activity of short duration."

I won't deny that "red and white Cessna" conveys more information than the tail number, but the FCC requires that all transmissions contain the identifier of the transmitting station.

Bob Gardner
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But then the FAA asks you to break that rule in an official document by reporting only aircraft type. For example in the Hudson River Exclusion.
 
bobmrg said:
Far be it from me to interrupt this discussion by citing another regulation that applies to all licensees:...
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The only reason they want that information is to potentially cite, or take administrative action against you. So, for me it's "yellow / green Mooney" only! :D
 
Dav8or said:
So, if everyone is OK with the guy in the Champ doing what is easiest, then I think we should all STFU and be OK with the Cirrus driver going NORDO and landing opposite whatever the traffic pattern happens to be.
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now you've got it. When I'm spraying I'll land downwind and takeoff upwind, anything to shorten my cycle times. I'll not begrudge anyone else the same courtesy. Just look out the window and be considerate of what other folks are doing. Getting all riled up over radio nonsense is missing the forest for the trees.
 
Dav8or said:
I think NORDO is kind of bull crap in this day and age. Get a hand held. The ultralight guys do it, so can Grandpa in the Champ. Guys that fly NORDO are just plain lazy. They don't have to, so they don't. If you're going to give them a pass, give it to the guy in the Cirrus too.

Just my opinion.
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Good god, you sound like Jay Honeck 15 years ago (Jay was bitching about the gliders that don't use radios...I suggested he get rid of his Cherokee and get something he could see out of). Not all aircraft can even permit a handheld. Open cockpits and unshielded ignitions can render them useless. Get your head off your GPS and look out the WINDOWS. VFR traffic patterns are visual operations.
 
txflyer said:
But since I have a radio, I announce upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, final and how do ya do if there's traffic, and if there's no radio traffic, I still announce I'm landing at X field, and say something for any nordo's I'm not seeing.
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You make radio announcements for NORDOs?
Do you yell at deaf people too?
 
Going right to the end of the thread without having read any of the discussion (I want to be just like the high timers here).......
Talk. Talk as much as you want. Talk a lot. If you find time, fly the airplane.

I fly with a guy who makes a lot of announcements. He is a good pilot. But, he'll key the mike instead of flying the airplane.

I told him I thought his priorities were out of order.
 
JHW said:
now you've got it. When I'm spraying I'll land downwind and takeoff upwind, anything to shorten my cycle times. I'll not begrudge anyone else the same courtesy. Just look out the window and be considerate of what other folks are doing. Getting all riled up over radio nonsense is missing the forest for the trees.
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flyingron said:
Good god, you sound like Jay Honeck 15 years ago (Jay was bitching about the gliders that don't use radios...I suggested he get rid of his Cherokee and get something he could see out of). Not all aircraft can even permit a handheld. Open cockpits and unshielded ignitions can render them useless. Get your head off your GPS and look out the WINDOWS. VFR traffic patterns are visual operations.
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Do you guys that have these fantastic Wonder Woman glass airplanes and 30/30 vision, ever use your radios outside of controlled airspace, or do you just switch them off to save power? I your opinion, other than for IFR ops, do com radios actually serve much of a purpose? It seems that the vast majority of pilots seem to find value in them for some reason. Are they wrong?

At my field, all the gliders and ultralights use them as do the jets, the helicopters, the jump plane and well, everybody. Have we all been had by the radio manufacturers? Was it all just a plot to sell radios? Why is so much time wasted on coms procedures during training and why did they ever bother putting suggestions in the AIM? Was it all just a huge waste of energy when it sounds like all we need is the window?
 
But then, of course, the radio serves no purpose when people OVERuse it either.

Trying to take off from Watsonville on a fairly busy Sunday, two aircraft each 10 miles out in opposite directions spent several minutes trying to coordinate the arrival. There was a drop zone off 26 (as there often is), and these guys spent minutes discussing it, when all that was necessary was to stay on the ocean side the highway and maybe fly over the 20 numbers at 2000 or higher. None of us knew if the zone was hot because the jump plane wouldn't have been able to get a word in edgewise to announce it. It was a nice day, so we all presumed it.

It sucks waiting on the hold short line to make a takeoff announcement while two Forrest Gumps are trying to figure out basic traffic avoidance on the air. Taking off NORDO at that airport, while legal, is not a very good idea, as there is always some distracted schmuck trying to come back from whale watching straight into departing traffic.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Do you announce the crosswind leg?
Do you announce the upwind leg?
Do you announce intentions (landing or stay in pattern) on each announcement?

I usually only announce the downwind, base, and final. I announce intentions on downwind. While we were flying out west, it seemed every leg is announced along with intentions. I think that using so much airtime around here on a busy day is unwarranted.

There didn't seen to be as much concern about congestion on the airwaves out west. Sometimes it seemed as though the pilot wanted to tell their life story as they approached the field.
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When no one is there I announce them all. When others are in the pattern I announce enough to make sure we all know where each other is but not enough to crowd the freq.
 
MAKG1 said:
Taking off NORDO at that airport, while legal, is not a very good idea, as there is always some distracted schmuck trying to come back from whale watching straight into departing traffic.
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Why? You have windows, don't you? ;)
 
Last week, I took off NORDO, flew around over the city, returned to the airport, and landed. There were gliders, students, transient planes, and a helicopter operating at and around the airport. Not even a near miss.
 
So if it is a drone in the pattern and he is announcing position via a handheld it's all good right?
 
Except that happened at a towered field, both aircraft had working radios and were following explicit instructions from ATC. Other than that, just like what happens at non-towered fields, an event that I've never seen at any of the 80 non-towered fields I've visited, or the ones I've been based at.
 
Because its uncontrolled, I feel like its good practice to announce all positions and intentions. Its good SA for everyone in the area :)
 
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