Wheel Landings

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vkhosid

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Hey guys,

Just happened to come across this place on my search for tips and advice regarding landing techniques.

So, the quick version is this: I've been flying for about 9 months now, and am able to fly (on average) about once a week. I've accrued 33 hours now, have solo'd and and working on my XC with the instructor. I am flying a 1946 C140 and could use some advice/tips/anecdotes regarding the wheel landing.

The 3-pointers aren't bad, but its the wheel landings that need work. Every time I reach the point where I should flare, I keep getting the feeling that the sink rate of the plane is too high. In turn, I just say "forget it" with the wheel landing and transition straight into the 3-point attitude to land the plane safely. Perhaps its just me, and the sink rate is fine? Perhaps I'm doing something wrong? Perhaps i'm just more comfortable with the 3 point landings so I just go with those?

What says you guys?


Hi, by the way!!!! I'm Vlad
 
In a wheel landing, adjust the sink rate with throttle. One of my regular planes is a 1946 C-140. I find that setting up on "best glide attitude": wings flat, 70mph, no flaps and keeping 1100-1200rpm works well for most of the approach, then just a brief blip of throttle over the threshold and rolling the yoke forward works wonderfully in the 140.

Don't flare for a wheels landing in the 140.
 
warthog1984 said:
In a wheel landing, adjust the sink rate with throttle. One of my regular planes is a 1946 C-140. I find that setting up on "best glide attitude": wings flat, 70mph, no flaps and keeping 1100-1200rpm works well for most of the approach, then just a brief blip of throttle over the threshold and rolling the yoke forward works wonderfully in the 140.

Don't flare for a wheels landing in the 140.
Click to expand...

No flaps?? I've always been instructed to put in about 50% of flaps right before the turn to base, and then the rest of the flaps right before the turn to final.
 
Do everything the same as you normally would, except instead of pulling the throttle to idle...give it enough just to make the engine make some noise (just off idle). Lower the mains softly onto the pavement with pitch.... but doing it so that the tail is still off the ground. The engine being just off idle should give you enough time to make a tail-low wheel landing. Once the mains touch, pull the power to idle and raise the tail to level the airplane.
 
The concept (in theory) I understand...it's just that stupid feeling of sinking too quickly.
 
vkhosid said:
No flaps?? I've always been instructed to put in about 50% of flaps right before the turn to base, and then the rest of the flaps right before the turn to final.
Click to expand...

No flaps. You can add flaps to get a little slower, but for the crosswind landings you won't have them anyway. Plus it screws with the sight picture IMO- the 140 glides real nice at 70mph and it's very easy to maintain that visually.
 
warthog1984 said:
Whatever you do, do NOT be pulling back on the stick or letting the tail sink at touchdown- you will bounce, bounce, Bounce, CRUNCH
Click to expand...

I feel as though that's what I'm doing...I come in over the numbers thinking that I want to do (and am going to do) a wheel landing...as I feel the tail dropping, (in my mind) I think that I've past the point where a wheel landing is a safe way to go...so I may as well just 3point it.
 
vkhosid said:
I feel as though that's what I'm doing...I come in over the numbers thinking that I want to do (and am going to do) a wheel landing...as I feel the tail dropping, (in my mind) I think that I've past the point where a wheel landing is a safe way to go...so I may as well just 3point it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it messed me up too.

Come in about 5mph faster and a little shallower, and when you feel the tail start to get heavy add a burst of power and start the stick going forward. Roll the mains on and fly the plane onto the runway.
 
Same approach speed!!!!

Come in and round out low (part of getting used to where your legs are), pull the power and just try to buzz the runway 6" off the deck, the wheels will touch, keep flying down the runway until the tail wants to come down, let her down.

If you bounce, THAT TWO POINT IS DONE, you can go around, or convert to a 3pt, DO NOT try to salvage the 2pt

If you are still having trouble with energy management in the 2pt, just fly the airplane down the runway at slow speed and try to keep her 6 inches off the deck all the way down, when the wheels chirp, burp in a little power to get the off the ground again and keep going, do this a few times and then just cut the power when they chirp.

After that work on cutting the power runway assured, round out nice and low and wait for them to touch, keep flying down the runway till you tail starts to fade, then let her down.

NEVER STICK FORWARD when your wheels touch on a two point, stick to whatever position toFLY TO THE INFINITY POINT ON THE HORIZON.
 
James331 said:
Same approach speed!!!!

Come in and round out low (part of getting used to where your legs are), pull the power and just try to buzz the runway 6" off the deck, the wheels will touch, keep flying down the runway until the tail wants to come down, let her down.

If you bounce, THAT TWO POINT IS DONE, you can go around, or convert to a 3pt, DO NOT try to salvage the 2pt

If you are still having trouble with energy management in the 2pt, just fly the airplane down the runway at slow speed and try to keep her 6 inches off the deck all the way down, when the wheels chirp, burp in a little power to get the off the ground again and keep going, do this a few times and then just cut the power when they chirp.

After that work on cutting the power runway assured, round out nice and low and wait for them to touch, keep flying down the runway till you tail starts to fade, then let her down.

NEVER STICK FORWARD when your wheels touch on a two point, stick to whatever position toFLY TO THE INFINITY POINT ON THE HORIZON.
Click to expand...

Well, wouldn't you gradually apply more and more forward pressure on the yoke? As the elevator's control starts to be weaker and weaker because of the lack of speed?
 
vkhosid said:
Well, wouldn't you gradually apply more and more forward pressure on the yoke? As the elevator's control starts to be weaker and weaker because of the lack of speed?
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On the 140 specifically, you apply forward pressure to the yoke to get the mains planted, and then FULL FORWARD on the yoke until you bring the tail to the ground.

With the mains on the ground, the 140 cannot prop-strike or nose-over from yoke movement alone- just don't hit the brakes!

You can also checkout the advice in Stick & Rudder- Wolfgang was an Engineer at Cessna in 1944, pretty much when the 120/140 was being designed. The advice in that book is very germane to the 140.
 
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If you don't feel you have enough energy to wheel on, you either need some more speed, or some more throttle. Also you can't really judge it properly until you get into ground effect.
 
vkhosid said:
Well, wouldn't you gradually apply more and more forward pressure on the yoke? As the elevator's control starts to be weaker and weaker because of the lack of speed?
Click to expand...

Yes and no, it's often the same action but with a different reason, just fly it level to the horizion, don't think of it as pushing the nose down.

It's often the same movement but for different purpose, if you get the larger reason behind what you're doing. Just pusing he stick forward is bad form and can also get a little sketchy when all things aren't the same

warthog1984 said:
On the 140 specifically, you apply forward pressure to the yoke to get the mains planted, and then FULL FORWARD on the yoke until you bring the tail to the ground.

With the mains on the ground, the 140 cannot prop-strike or nose-over from yoke movement alone- just don't hit the brakes!

You can also checkout the advice in Stick & Rudder- Wolfgang was an Engineer at Cessna in 1944, pretty much when the 120/140 was being designed. The advice in that book is very germane to the 140.
Click to expand...

A tail low 2 pt is really the ideal 2pt.

Also holding the tail up longer then it wants can get you in trouble, some planes like a S108 will run out of rudder before elevator at lower speeds, you'll want that tailwheel down before the rudder dies.
 
I found that as I round out I get to a zero vsi and hold it above the runway inches and as speed bleeds of once the wheels touch I relax pressure on the yoke almost to the point of pushing it forward a bit.

It was drilled into me to get to zero vsi and hold it until it naturally settles. It won't take long and hardly any power. No I'm not looking at the vsi but looking at the end of the runway to judge. Keep at, they are the hardest to do.
 
Every tailwheel airplane ive flown does well with a tail-low wheel landing. It allows for soft and slow touchdowns.

For a given low power setting over the runway the only reason the aircraft is still flying is due to the angle of attack increasing at it decelerates.

Use pitch to "flare" and fly the main wheels on softly....just do so before the tail is in the 3pt attitude. The power setting will determine the window of opportunity you have to do this or how long you have until the tail is going to touch.

Soft flare, fly the mains onto runway, power to idle, raise the tail a little.

That's just one technique....and it has worked in every tailwheel airplane ive flown. Some may have others that work perfectly fine like aggressively flying the mains on, or maintaining constant pitch...using power to control decent rate etc. Gotta find what works best for you.
 
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I think Henning has the best way of thinking about it - like you're trying to level off and buzz the runway at very low level. In most airplanes, I approach (power off) the same for both types of landings. The only difference is that for wheelies, I'll round out very low and close to the runway so that I'm still fast enough to be in a tail-high attitude by the time the tires are 6" from the runway. For a 3-pointer, I'll break the glide earlier and higher, making a slow steady pull on the stick such that I'm slowed down and just about at 3-point attitude 6" from the runway.

You'll get wide ranging opinions - use power, or add power during the round out, don't use flaps, approach faster, trim nose down, etc., etc. No need for the complexity. You don't need to set up your approach or landing configuration for one type or the other. You can wait to decide what type of landing you want to do just before you break the glide. Again, it's all in how you manage your energy after breaking the glide. Power can be used as a crutch during the learning process to give you more time to find the runway smoothly before slowing to a 3-point attitude, but it's not needed after a bit of practice.

And I see many people using way too much forward stick/yoke movement at touchdown trying to "pin" the mains on. If you get a slight hop on landing, all that forward elevator movement can set you up for a fun ride- especially in airplanes with spring gear. Most light planes I've wheel landed don't take more than an INCH of forward elevator movement at touchdown. Using such a small amount can actually have you rolling it back on smoothly if you happen to be slightly late with your forward stick movement and get a very small hop. Not so if you jam that forward elevator.

I also see a lot of folks trying to see how slow they can get before letting the tail drop. That might be fun in calm conditions, but is pointless and risky in gusty conditions. You are exposed to a window where you have have almost zero rudder authority in many airplanes at this point (AND no tailwheel steering), and an ill-timed gust could send you into the ditch unless you respond with some heroic reflexes and inputs. Get the tail down at a speed that retains rudder authority, but slow enough that you won't go flying again once the tail is down.

Generally speaking, I view wheel landings as simply landing with excess speed. Yes, some airplanes are better suited to wheelies than 3-point, but unless there's a compelling reason to do a wheel landing, I like the minimum energy of a 3-point touchdown. Don't let people try to feed you blanket statements like you should only wheel land in x-winds, or that wheelies are better suited for x-winds. Pure BS. Again, this is generally speaking. There are differences among aircraft types. Learn to do both types of landings well.

I also think a perfect 3-point landing is more challenging to do than a perfect wheelie, since the wheelie does not require precise attitude control at touchdown - only descent rate. The 3-pointer requires both, and they must coincide exactly at the runway height. Newbies may find wheelies more challenging to get the hang of at first, but then they can actually be easier. I think this is why you see more wheel landings and 3-pointers these days. Easier to avoid those embarrassing dribbles down the runway in front of the peanut gallery. :)
 
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simtech said:
I found that as I round out I get to a zero vsi and hold it above the runway inches and as speed bleeds of once the wheels touch I relax pressure on the yoke almost to the point of pushing it forward a bit.

It was drilled into me to get to zero vsi and hold it until it naturally settles. It won't take long and hardly any power. No I'm not looking at the vsi but looking at the end of the runway to judge. Keep at, they are the hardest to do.
Click to expand...
this ^^^^
Make your approach the same as you would for a 3 point and then instead of holding it off until it stalls when it starts to sink while you're just inches off the runway at nearly zero sink just release the back pressure (you'll want it trimmed a bit nose heavy at this point). What you're trying to do is have the sink rate at touchdown reduced to a minimum and then forward stick (or yoke) just enuf' to prevent a bounce. The greater the sink rate at touchdown the more forward stick it'll take. It really helps to have a good feeling for how far the wheels are from the runway during the round out, you're not gonna' get this exactly right every time, no problem....if the wheels touch before you've started the stick forward you'll get a little bounce but if you've got the sink rate to a minimum the bounce will be so little you can just stick it on from there. OTOH if you start the stick forward while still a little too high it'll take more than the usual stick forward to counter the bounce.
I agree that wheel landings are harder than 3 points to learn (sort'a like learning to walk and chew gum at the same time?), OTOH once learned I think they're actually easier to do.
 
In the Luscombe, I would come in about 10 mph faster for a wheel landing than a three-point. That gave me a bit of time to hunt for the ground after rounding out. After the mains touched, I would stick it with some forward elevator.
 
Think about this;
How often do you see somebody actually do a full stall landing in a trike? Pretty seldom I'd guess. What folks usually do is to round out enuf' so the mains touch before the nosewheel and then let it settle on to the runway, it'll automatically reduce the angle of attack since the center of gravity is ahead of the main wheels. You do essentially the same thing in a tailwheel airplane except with the center of gravity aft of the main wheels it wants to increase the angle of attack instead so you have to reduce it manually, getting it timed right just takes practice :)
 
Haven't flown a 140, but one thing that works well in the 170 when I am rusty/haven't flown it in a while is to set 1400-1500 rpm abeam the numbers and adjust the approach speed with flaps/slip. On short final I trim so that I will need just a little back pressure to maintain approach speed and I essentially leave power set until the wheels touch. As soon as that happens, throttle to idle and relax that back pressure to keep the mains pinned. Then I fly the tail down. When I have been flying a lot, I'll mix it up and go between power on landings and full power off 180 wheel and 3-point landings.
 
A common mod on the Cessna 140 is wheel extenders. If you have those on your airplane it will be more difficult to do wheel landings.

It is okay to take them off. They are kind of like training wheels on a bicycle.

extension1.JPG
 
kgruber said:
A common mod on the Cessna 140 is wheel extenders. If you have those on your airplane it will be more difficult to do wheel landings.

It is okay to take them off. They are kind of like training wheels on a bicycle.

extension1.JPG
Click to expand...

By all means get rid of them. They add nothing to the airplane but weight. Get around 2-300 hours under your belt both type landings will become routine if you practice.
 
James331 said:
Same approach speed!!!!

Come in and round out low (part of getting used to where your legs are), pull the power and just try to buzz the runway 6" off the deck, the wheels will touch, keep flying down the runway until the tail wants to come down, let her down.

If you bounce, THAT TWO POINT IS DONE, you can go around, or convert to a 3pt, DO NOT try to salvage the 2pt

If you are still having trouble with energy management in the 2pt, just fly the airplane down the runway at slow speed and try to keep her 6 inches off the deck all the way down, when the wheels chirp, burp in a little power to get the off the ground again and keep going, do this a few times and then just cut the power when they chirp.

After that work on cutting the power runway assured, round out nice and low and wait for them to touch, keep flying down the runway till you tail starts to fade, then let her down.

NEVER STICK FORWARD when your wheels touch on a two point, stick to whatever position toFLY TO THE INFINITY POINT ON THE HORIZON.
Click to expand...

The sainted Wolfgang Langeewiesche disagrees with you. He discusses wheel landings on pages 305-309 of Stick and Rudder. An excerpt..


"Coming in with a good deal of speed, break your glide so that the airplanes shoots along level, half a foot or a foot above the ground,. Then, when the spot arrives where you want to make ground contact, simply push over forward and 'plaster' the front wheels on. Then, as you feel the ground, keep right on pressing forward on the stick so as to hold the ship on."

He goes on to explain how downwash impinging on the horizontal stabilizer keeps the airplane from nosing over (unless you step on the brakes).

Bob Gardner
 
kgruber said:
A common mod on the Cessna 140 is wheel extenders. If you have those on your airplane it will be more difficult to do wheel landings.

It is okay to take them off. They are kind of like training wheels on a bicycle.

extension1.JPG
Click to expand...
I think the extenders were designed to make the airplane less prone to nose over by putting the main wheels farther ahead of the center of gravity? I haven't flown a 140 but generally speaking with tailwheel airplanes the farther ahead the main wheels are from the center of gravity the more difficult the wheel landings and the more prone to groundloop, on the other hand the less prone to nose over. These things are also a factor as you get into bigger airplanes........like a Skywagon loaded to the aft cg limit will be more prone to groundloop and require more stick forward at the proper time on a wheel landing than if you're loaded at the forward cg limit.
 
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bobmrg said:
"Coming in with a good deal of speed, break your glide so that the airplanes shoots along level, half a foot or a foot above the ground,. Then, when the spot arrives where you want to make ground contact, simply push over forward and 'plaster' the front wheels on. Then, as you feel the ground, keep right on pressing forward on the stick so as to hold the ship on."
Click to expand...

Do this in an airplane with flexy spring gear and they'll call you Captain Kangaroo.
 
bobmrg said:
The sainted Wolfgang Langeewiesche disagrees with you. He discusses wheel landings on pages 305-309 of Stick and Rudder. An excerpt..


"Coming in with a good deal of speed, break your glide so that the airplanes shoots along level, half a foot or a foot above the ground,. Then, when the spot arrives where you want to make ground contact, simply push over forward and 'plaster' the front wheels on. Then, as you feel the ground, keep right on pressing forward on the stick so as to hold the ship on."

He goes on to explain how downwash impinging on the horizontal stabilizer keeps the airplane from nosing over (unless you step on the brakes).

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...
I would respectfully disagree with "Saint Wolfgang" on the point that there's no need to "Coming in with a good deal of speed, .....". One of the beautiful things about the wheel landing vs 3 point is that exact speed isn't real critical, you can if so desired (gusty crosswind for example or tower request you keep you speed up to the threshold) come in a little hot and still plant the wheels on where you want 'em. OTOH there's no reason why you can't arrive over the numbers at an airpeed that would be appropriate for a 3 point and just push it over on the wheels instead of continuing to pull back to a stall. Wheel landings give you more flexibility than 3 pointers.
 
I learned to fly in a Cessna 120 and probably did wheelies 90% of the time because they were so easy. A little extra speed is OK, no need for power at all. The speed helps round off and establish a level glide so you set it down gently - it will bounce if you touch down hard. Don't try to "nail" the mains down with a big push - just keep the tail from dropping. Once set on the mains, you can slow down a bit and let the tail settle. The key was to get the feel for setting it down with a degree of smoothisity.

What kind of brakes? The original Goodyear brakes were not well behaved. The old man ended up converting to Cleveland disks and those were very easy to control - you could use them all you want to drag it down to a stop with full control. They were also handy to keep things in line as the tail was coming down (rudder effectiveness fading, but no tailwheel yet).
 
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peerlesscowboy said:
I would respectfully disagree with "Saint Wolfgang" on the point that there's no need to "Coming in with a good deal of speed, .....". One of the beautiful things about the wheel landing vs 3 point is that exact speed isn't real critical, you can if so desired (gusty crosswind for example or tower request you keep you speed up to the threshold) come in a little hot and still plant the wheels on where you want 'em. OTOH there's no reason why you can't arrive over the numbers at an airpeed that would be appropriate for a 3 point and just push it over on the wheels instead of continuing to pull back to a stall. Wheel landings give you more flexibility than 3 pointers.
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When quoting, it is poor form to pick and choose which words to include. My point was about forward pressure after ground contact, not about speed, but because the paragraph included the speed language i was honor-bound to include it.

Bob
 
I fly mine no flaps and little fast. Come in, level off, when the wheel hits pavement, move the stick quickly forward (just a little). The eliminates any bouncing and "pastes" it on.
It is NOT a full stall landing. Then I put the tail down.

Works great, feels neat, looks cool, eats up more runway.
 
You CAN push the stick forward as you slow down and try and keep the tail up for as long as possible, but its risky. As you slow down you dont have much rudder authority and because the tail is up, you dont have tailwheel steering. Its a loop waiting to happen. Still, desperate men do desperate things!
 
The reason you see so many different opinions on how to do a wheel landing is there are at least 4 different styles of wheels landing and no real official definitions of them.

1. Tail Low Power Off
2. Tail Low Power On
3. Tail High Power Off
4. Tail High Power On

Tail High is generally done for Visibility and requires a higher touch down speed than a tail low landing.

Power off generally requires a bit more speed than power on.

I don't really consider a tail low wheel landing a wheel landing, it is more of an almost 3 point and lifting the tail off the ground after landing. The only real useful version of this I have seen is when trying to do extremely short field landings an the tail is brought up with the brakes. I don't recommend this as a normal wheel landing.

Some planes wheel land better than others S108 really likes them. But other than just being easier in some planes and for visibility the only real reason to do them in most small planes is because you are coming in fast and want to put it on the runway early so you can start braking. Again I don't recommend this as a normal procedure but it can be done pretty easy, and it requires being able to do a fast touch down.

I know they say that gusty or strong cross wind is a good reason to use a wheel landing, but I really haven't found much advantage of a wheel landing over 3 points in these conditions in the small taildraggers I fly.

Usually most problems with wheel landings in the C120/140 aircraft is due to touching down to slow, it is usually a lot faster than most people expect. I often come over the fence at 80 to 90 MPH power off (no flaps). I don't touch down that fast, but it gives me the energy to fly the airplane onto the runway. It can be more difficult in the C140A or if gear extension blocks have been added to improve the 3 point handling.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
brcase said:
The reason you see so many different opinions on how to do a wheel landing is there are at least 4 different styles of wheels landing and no real official definitions of them.

1. Tail Low Power Off
2. Tail Low Power On
3. Tail High Power Off
4. Tail High Power On

Tail High is generally done for Visibility and requires a higher touch down speed than a tail low landing.

Power off generally requires a bit more speed than power on.

I don't really consider a tail low wheel landing a wheel landing, it is more of an almost 3 point and lifting the tail off the ground after landing. The only real useful version of this I have seen is when trying to do extremely short field landings an the tail is brought up with the brakes. I don't recommend this as a normal wheel landing.

Some planes wheel land better than others S108 really likes them. But other than just being easier in some planes and for visibility the only real reason to do them in most small planes is because you are coming in fast and want to put it on the runway early so you can start braking. Again I don't recommend this as a normal procedure but it can be done pretty easy, and it requires being able to do a fast touch down.

I know they say that gusty or strong cross wind is a good reason to use a wheel landing, but I really haven't found much advantage of a wheel landing over 3 points in these conditions in the small taildraggers I fly.

Usually most problems with wheel landings in the C120/140 aircraft is due to touching down to slow, it is usually a lot faster than most people expect. I often come over the fence at 80 to 90 MPH power off (no flaps). I don't touch down that fast, but it gives me the energy to fly the airplane onto the runway. It can be more difficult in the C140A or if gear extension blocks have been added to improve the 3 point handling.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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Firstly, thanks for all the responses!! Lots to go through and lots to think about.

As stated before, I've never done a landing clean. I've always been told to extend flaps halfway on downwind-base, and the rest of the way from base to final...so, coming in at 80+ is not an option for me, as it could/would damage the flaps.
 
coloradobluesky said:
You CAN push the stick forward as you slow down and try and keep the tail up for as long as possible, but its risky. As you slow down you dont have much rudder authority and because the tail is up, you dont have tailwheel steering. Its a loop waiting to happen. Still, desperate men do desperate things!
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Desperate? Naaahhh..

Steering? No prob whatsoever if you have nice brakes. Big problem if you have POS brakes.

The other big problem is if you keep the tail up with brakes right to a full stop, if you don't have any power in it comes down with a real bang.
 
brcase said:
I know they say that gusty or strong cross wind is a good reason to use a wheel landing, but I really haven't found much advantage of a wheel landing over 3 points in these conditions in the small taildraggers I fly.
Click to expand...

One of the big downsides to wheel landings in gusty/strong x-winds is that while it is easier to make the initial touchdown, at some point you have to get the tail down and that transition is where you are most vulnerable.
 
Well, nobody's said a thing about landing on grass. My 140 had wheel extensions and that baby was like landing on a pogo stick on a paved runway. That first word in the type of landing gear material is "spring" steel for reason. I suggest you find a nice cushy grass field and perfect your technique on that first. The grass helps hold you down (don't ask me why). Then carefully move to pavement.

dtuuri
 
Jebus people

YOUR APPROACH & VREF SPEED ARE THE SAME, 2pt or 3pt!

it's just the round out after you are runway assured.

"Tail high" 2pts are just done because the pilot isn't experienced.

I'll often use a 2pt when I might be doing a go around for wind, turf etc, it keeps me closer to a flying attitude and is easier to transition to "get out of dodge" mode compared to a 3pt.

Also the S108 likes landing ether way just the same, part due to the great suspension that Stinson made for the mains, you can damn near run over a midget and not feel it, there is a reason she's known as the caddy of aviation.

Got one for sale too if you're interested :)
 
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