Wheel Landings

There is a saying in aviation..... "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old & bold pilots". This weekend I had the honor of hanging out with a couple of "old & bold" pilots at Reno. When I asked how do they fly so many airplanes and 2 different helos one said; "I do what ever it takes".

I think the best answer is ...."Do what ever it takes.". :yes:

:D
 
dtuuri said:
Well, nobody's said a thing about landing on grass. My 140 had wheel extensions and that baby was like landing on a pogo stick on a paved runway. That first word in the type of landing gear material is "spring" steel for reason. I suggest you find a nice cushy grass field and perfect your technique on that first. The grass helps hold you down (don't ask me why). Then carefully move to pavement.

dtuuri
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The grass helps hold you down because it's a softer surface than pavement, thus provides more rolling resistance so the momentum of the airplane tends to help keep the tail up.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Wheel landings in a crosswind are ONE wheel landings.
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Story time! :D

I flew a 1946 Interstate Cadette getting my TW endorsement. One day the wind was 12 -15 mph on a direct cross on a grass strip. The CFI had me doing one wheel landings on 35 , then do a 180 degree turn and "touch & go" on 17. I worked my a$$ off. Some of the best training I have ever had, I mean work! :eek: The wind was gusting so strong the brakes would not hold turning into the wind. Riding the length of the runway on one wheel then landing was "interesting" to say the least.



Back to your regularly scheduled thread. :rolleyes:
 
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I think you can read about it and listen to everyone's secret recipes until you're blue in the face but in reality you just have to go out there in do it. I think that with wheel landings in particular people seem to have a tough time with them and then one day, all of a sudden, something clicks and they are no longer a problem. In fact you'll get to a point where no preparation is necessary and you can decide between the two at the last moment.

Another thing is that not all airplanes are the same, even among these little two seaters. The Cessna has spring gear so the technique is not the same as with a Cub or a Luscombe. I've been flying a Champ for the past five years that has the heavy duty "no-bounce" gear (seriously, that's what they called it) and I can say that, except for maybe landing on rocks where you don't want the tailwheel to get beat up, there is really no justifiable reason to ever do a wheel landing in it.

My guess is that you are probably very close to the point where you are just all of a sudden going to start banging them out like nobody's business and will be wondering what all the fuss was about.
 
brcase said:
I often come over the fence at 80 to 90 MPH power off (no flaps). I don't touch down that fast, but it gives me the energy to fly the airplane onto the runway.
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90 mph in a 120/140!! Use a lot of runway much? I assume you are doing this for pure ****s and giggles, because that is just silly for an airplane that stalls under 50 mph. But then that is the nice thing about wheel landings I guess - your approach and touchdown speed can be up to Vne if you want. :)
 
RoscoeT said:
90 mph in a 120/140!! Use a lot of runway much? I assume you are doing this for pure ****s and giggles, because that is just silly for an airplane that stalls under 50 mph. But then that is the nice thing about wheel landings I guess - your approach and touchdown speed can be up to Vne if you want. :)
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That's just a smidge below cruising speed...:rofl:
 
RoscoeT said:
90 mph in a 120/140!! Use a lot of runway much? I assume you are doing this for pure ****s and giggles, because that is just silly for an airplane that stalls under 50 mph. But then that is the nice thing about wheel landings I guess - your approach and touchdown speed can be up to Vne if you want. :)
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Remember power off, and over the fence at that speed. I don't know the actual touch down speed (since I am not looking at it, I just want the plane in a level attitude at touch down, which looks really nose down in the C120/140) but would guess 1.3Vso so 65mph to touch on the mains and keep the tail up for a level touch down attitude. Usually stopped in under 1500ft, often under 1000 feet. C140 with flaps reduce about 10mph for 70-80mph over the fence.

The problem with coming in slow and power off is you have such a small window to fly the airplane onto the runway before it runs out of energy and stops flying. The extra speed gives you time to float in ground effect and inch the airplane down to the pavement. One hint, aim short of your touchdown point and round out and be flying in ground effect before you get to your touch down point. I have won spot landing contests using this technique. Not short but fairly easy to put it down on the spot.

The best reason I have found to use a wheel landing is to be able to touch down fast (something you can't do well in a tri-gear).
Haven't found any real good reason to do tail low wheel landings other than just to practice doing them.

Power on wheel landings are a another topic.

Brian
 
That's really the reality of Tailwheel planes, they are actually easier to land than tricycles. With a tricycle, you have a very narrow window of energy to effect a good landing. With a Tailwheel, anything above stall speed makes for landable energy. Not that a 115kt wheel landing doesn't pose some risks in energy and stability, but it is easily controllable. With conventional gear you can bounce along the ground at cruise speed, I've done it when flying pipeline coming through a winter front, just climb for the fences. Tricycles don't land nose low well at all.
 
brcase said:
...The best reason I have found to use a wheel landing is to be able to touch down fast (something you can't do well in a tri-gear). Haven't found any real good reason to do tail low wheel landings other than just to practice doing them...
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Tail low allows for a slower, shorter and steeper arrival because ANY forward movement of the stick decreases the AOA and precludes an aerodynamic bounce. It also protects the small tailwheel when landing on rough ground. I can't think of any good reason to land fast, you're going to have to slow down sooner or later.
 
Silvaire said:
Tail low allows for a slower, shorter and steeper arrival because ANY forward movement of the stick decreases the AOA and precludes an aerodynamic bounce. It also protects the small tailwheel when landing on rough ground. I can't think of any good reason to land fast, you're going to have to slow down sooner or later.
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Yep, always preferable to have less energy than more, the nice thing with a Tailwheel is that it will tolerate a much higher level of 'more' especially with sufficient runway. You are not particularly vulnerable on conventional gear at any speed above flying speed to be wheels down.
 
I have about 1,500 tailwheel hours, much of it instructing tailwheel transition courses in Citabrias - which included wheel landings, of course.

Having learned "full stall" landings as my norm, wheel landings have always felt less natural to me. I can do them successfully, and even teach them, but always found them a little more difficult to get right.

A few observations;

1) It helped me to brace my forearm firmly against my right inner thigh. That seemed to help "damp out" incipient oscillations. Might not work so well with a yoke.

2) The spring steel gear on the Citabria made it very easy to "bounce" wheel landings. I found it less likely to bounce if I landed on one wheel first. This is very natural in a crosswind, but I found even with no wind I would tend to roll on the right main first. This means landing in a tiny slip, and may not be great advice in general, but it really worked for me.

3) I did use some extra speed to "buy time" to find the ground with minimal sink. But watch some of the Valdez landing competitions and you'll see that's hardly necessary - though those tundra tires serving as massive "shock absorbers" looks like it helps a lot!

Go to 1:40 below for an example, with at least one to follow:

http://youtu.be/F9EnVah07k0

Admittedly, the very shortest ones appear to be "tailwheel first". I happened to find the very best "full stall" landings in a Citabria were ever-so-slightly tailwheel first - you could just feel it roll on gently, and the the mains would drop no more than a foot or so - done flying and less "skittery" than a true 3-point.
 
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I had to have a change in attitude before I got wheel landings down. Wheel landing you have to be ready to drive on. If your initial training in landing is "hold off" as most are you will always want to three point. I did not get comfortable with wheel landings until after I started flying Ag and got used to flying that low to the ground without intending to land. Once you get the feel for that, then driving it on is no where near as daunting. The faster you come in on a wheel landing, the better control you have of it, and your control hazard zone doesn't really change, it just moves down the runway some.
 
Silvaire said:
I can't think of any good reason to land fast, you're going to have to slow down sooner or later.
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I liked to carry extra speed when things were nasty because I could touch down with good solid control. Yes, you have to slow down. But if you have decent brakes to steer with and you are solidly on the mains, life is good. If you have POS brakes, then it is a different story - you have no good way to deal with that awkward time when you are slow and the tail is not solidly down.

Some airplanes like wheelies, some don't.
 
What's the opposite of a "peak experience"?

I used to commute from Opa Locka to New Tamiami in my Citabria to teach ground school.

A couple of times I would return, at night, to a gusty north wind spilling over the trees to the north of 9L.

And then find my landing light had burned out. Again.

Wrestling that puppy to a wheel landing barely able to see where the runway was was quite the challenge. Always worked out, but it sure kept me on my toes!
 
brcase said:
I have won spot landing contests using this technique. Not short but fairly easy to put it down on the spot.
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A much better spot landing skill test is to require power to be pulled abeam the numbers and to perform a 3-pointer.

Even in really nasty wind conditions, I've never felt the need to wheel land at blazingly fast speeds, since as already mentioned, you still must get the tail down such that you don't balloon back into the air. This speed will be much slower than a fast touchdown on the wheels. It doesn't do much good to touch down at 100 mph under control if you cannot control the airplane at the 40 mph speed it takes to get the tail down without going flying again in gusty/turbulent conditions.

To each their own magic recipe. :)
 
This is the reason I would teach my zero time guys wheel landings first, it makes everything easier and more natural.
 
RoscoeT said:
Do this in an airplane with flexy spring gear and they'll call you Captain Kangaroo.
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It won't bounce if the stick is really forward, because the tail won't come down enough to get the wing flying again. I have been doing this in the 140 lately and it works fine. Generally I wait to touch but if it's a small bounce you can still just put it down and hold it there. The gear absorb the impact just fine and you hold it there.
 
I find it interesting that what was a “curiosity” to Roy was a normal technique for other pilots of that era.

With the exception of a few specific types, it really boils down to preference and proficiency.
 
Daleandee said:
A taildragger pilot for 70 years, Mr. Roy Redman gives us his take ...

https://rareaircraft.com/landing-the-airplane/
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Tried to read that. Couldn’t get beyond the first section. Like Kaiser said, every type is different. But anyone who says wheel landings must be done fast, or that they necessarily use more runway than 3-pointers has something to learn about wheel landings, 70 years’ experience or not. Perhaps he stopped learning and started bloviating 69 years ago.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
Tried to read that. Couldn’t get beyond the first section. Like Kaiser said, every type is different. But anyone who says wheel landings must be done fast, or that they necessarily use more runway than 3-pointers has something to learn about wheel landings, 70 years’ experience or not. Perhaps he stopped learning and started bloviating 69 years ago.
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I put it up to give perspective ... not for folks to excoriate and bloviate over. I understand the need to know and use both three point & wheel landings. My particular plane prefers three pointers (factory recommends three point for take-off and landings). The Champ really seemed to like wheel landings.

I'm a newbie tail-wheeler myself so I read it all in an effort to get insight from a high time tailwheel pilot. I am curious how much tailwheel time you have ...
 
About 500 hours IIRC, mostly in a 185, not that it matters. Enough that I can wheel land slow and reasonably (though not impressively) short.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
About 500 hours IIRC, mostly in a 185, not that it matters. Enough that I can wheel land slow and reasonably (though not impressively) short.
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You're ahead of me in tail wheel hours. As slow as I can get mine to touch down in ground effect for a three pointer is ~38 IAS and a wheel landing requires ~55 IAS, so not as slow as the three pointer.

With the short coupled Sonex up on the mains the pilot has to be alert while being smooth, yet confident, on the controls. If it's a gusty day I prefer to three point it. The direct steer tail wheel helps ...
 
A wheel landing does not have to be fast. Remember that airspeed and angle of attack are inextricably linked. A low airspeed requires a high AoA, and vice versa. A three point landing in a Champ or Citabria is at about 12 degrees AoA. That's the wing's chord angle in the three-point attitude, and the touchdown flight path will be nearly parallel to the runway. A wheel landing simply involves landing with the tail wheel off the surface, and if it's off by only four inches, say, the AoA is only about a degree less, which does not translate into much higher speed.

Too many folks think of a wheel landing with the airplane in level flight attitude. That's ridiculous. It means almost cruise speed, less if flaps are extended.
 
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To me, a wheel landing is a landing where you're fast enough to be able to hold the tail up, just for a bit, after landing. That may not be the generally accepted definition. A landing where the mains touch down slightly before the tail is, to me, a three point landing that didn't quite make three points. My experienced is more limited than most here, my tailwheel time is only around 100 hrs, and limited to a few different cubs. In a normal cub, if there's not enough airspeed to hold up the tail, there's nowhere near enough for the wing to lift the plane, unless the CG is way, way off.
 
Wheel landings are for show offs. No need to ever do one.
Three pointers are for sissies. No need to ever do one.
On the other hand, wheel landings are easier, so no point in three pointing.
But since a three point is easier than a wheel landing, why would anyone want to do a wheelie?
And, since there is no fundamental difference between a J-3 and a DC-3 (they are both "3"s after all), what works for one will work for the other.
Fact.
 
:) I usually do 3 point because my wheel landings are usually lousy. And if I had to land a DC-3?? Nope!! It took me way too long to learn how to land and taxi the little cub. The physics of flying something the size of a DC-3 are way beyond my skill set, and likely capability at all. (Besides, my normal routine of "power to idle" downwind at the numbers would likely upset whomever the instructor was beside me.)

My tailwheel time taught me a lot about flying. A lot of that was low speed stuff, and was fun. But an equal part was exploring and learning my limitations.
 
Albany Tom said:
To me, a wheel landing is a landing where you're fast enough to be able to hold the tail up, just for a bit, after landing.
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You can land three-point and lift the tail immediately and hold it there for some time.
 
Dan Thomas said:
You can land three-point and lift the tail immediately and hold it there for some time.
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Yup. I do all my wheel landings tail low - that way I can lock the mains on the ground when I touch.
 
Dan Thomas said:
You can land three-point and lift the tail immediately and hold it there for some time.
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I don't think for more than a second or two, without adding power, in the cubs I've flown.
 
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