Wheel landing vs. Three point?

Sazzy

Sazzy

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Sazzy
I've just had my first flight in a taildragger yesterday, and I am HOOKED on the way this aircraft flies! So, I wanna know more.

Is there a reason for landing differently? Is it personal preference? Are there weather/wind conditions that would dictate which type of landing would be more appropriate for either wheel or three point?
 
paging @Mtns2Skies :)

It's definitely addictive! What type of plane are you training in?

I am not experienced enough to provide anywhere near as qualified an answer as many others here, but I prefer wheel landings only when I am dealing with any material crosswind. Otherwise I prefer to 3-point it.
 
I generally make 3-point landings unless there's a strong or gusty crosswind, then I wheel land it. Some people wheel land all the time, but they lose cool status as wheel landings are generally considered "easier". Some larger taildraggers are always wheel landed.
 
Be proficient and capable of doing both. It's common for people that do wheel landings normally to start coming in faster and faster. Throwing in some three points reminds you to slow the airplane down. Most aircraft can do both equally well, until you get into bigger more powerful taildraggers. For example, you don't three point a DC-3/C-47, easy way to damage the fuselage landing on the tail.
 
I was never a fan of wheel landings in strong gusty winds. You have to get the tail down eventually and I would just as soon start with it on the ground. You might lose some crosswind capability but it beats losing control getting the tail on the ground after landing.

But that is just my opinion. You have to demonstrate proficiency in both.
 
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Sazzy said:
I've just had my first flight in a taildragger yesterday, and I am HOOKED on the way this aircraft flies! So, I wanna know more.
Is there a reason for landing differently? Is it personal preference? Are there weather/wind conditions that would dictate which type of landing would be more appropriate for either wheel or three point?
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It's more about the plane than anything. I can't think of any good reason to three point my own planes other than to satisfy an instructor's request to demonstrate one. I use tail low wheel landings and full flaps 99.9999% of the time but my planes have really excellent flaps and jackscrew trim. Maybe my preference would change with less effective flaps or with a plane that doesn't trim as well for slow flight.
 
Sazzy said:
I've just had my first flight in a taildragger yesterday, and I am HOOKED on the way this aircraft flies! So, I wanna know more.
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First off... Welcome to the club! Once you go tailwheel you never go back :)

Also as a side note, I know a couple friends/co-workers that train with your instructor.
Sazzy said:
I've just had my first flight in a taildragger yesterday, and I am HOOKED on the way this aircraft flies! So, I wanna know more.

Is there a reason for landing differently? Is it personal preference? Are there weather/wind conditions that would dictate which type of landing would be more appropriate for either wheel or three point?
Click to expand...
In light taildraggers it's largely personal preference, once you get into heavier taildraggers things get a little more specific. Always keep in mind, once you get your tailwheel endorsement that doesn't mean you can hop into any taildragger and be completely fine flying it every single one has an incredibly specific personality. That personality is why I love tailwheel :). An example of this, you'll get taught that a tail low wheel landing is the worst possible configuration because it masks the tail and the tailwheel isn't on the ground yet, but in my Skywagon that's the BEST way to land it (like @Stewartb says) because of the springy gear and large tail. . I had gotten to a point where I could grease every landing in any tricycle gear plane I flew... I was bored, but now I still haven't "mastered" the plane I OWN after 200 hours of flying it.

Anyway, back to the original question of 3 pt vs wheel landings. *The following is opinion, not instruction*. I generally prefer wheel landings in all but the shortest/softest field landings. I prefer this because you can deal with one thing at a time, get the wheels planted then bring the tail down, then pin the tailwheel, all while dealing with winds and side-load and tracking straight. With a 3pt landing you have to do all of those things at once and there's a lot more going against you at any given time. Other advantages to wheel landings are better visibility and better wind tolerance.

That being said, 3 pt landings are going to feel more like a tricycle gear plane in how you approach them and are easier when starting out. Flare hold it off... hold it off... touchdown!

No matter how you land it, although tailwheel is more difficult than tricycle gear it gives you waaay more options when landing in the backcountry and is stronger with better prop clearance and easier to put on different things, skis, big tires etc... so it's all worth it objectively too.

Anyway, have fun with it! Champs are lovely airplanes!
 
it is mostly preference and they are a variety of styles of Wheel landings. Power on/ Power off. tail high/Tail low touch downs.
Each aircraft and situation has some that work better.

IMO the Champ almost never requires a wheel landing. But it will do them quite nicely.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
I typically wheel land, mostly because I’ve had too many tail wheels fall off the airplane. Maule “recommends against” wheel landings, in part because the geometry of the airplane makes them more difficult, but they work well for me. With vortex generators, a full stall attitude put the tailwheel well below the mains, so a good 3-point was more difficult.

For most light taildraggers, I haven’t found that wind conditions really require one or the other...I’ve touched down on a main and the tailwheel in a Champ with a strong enough crosswind to get grass stains on the wingtip.

As @brcase noted, there are more variants...I prefer a tail low wheel landing, as I think it puts the least stress on the airplane. (Very possibly not the case, but I haven’t seen any evidence to the contrary.) It also works well for rough fields.

When the field is soft enough for the wheels to sink in, I’m three-pointing it every time.

Short field over an obstacle, I’ll often three point it and roll up onto the mains for braking.

So, having said all that, most pilots don’t fly where conditions require one or the other...pick what you prefer, but be comfortable with both.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Other advantages to wheel landings are better visibility and better wind tolerance.
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And this is why it's always a hot topic, no matter where it comes up! I try to avoid politics, religion, and 3-pt vs. wheel landing discussions! I'm a true believer that the better wind tolerance is not true. The tail comes down at some point, get it down as soon as possible, especially in wind. To each his own, and I'll say I believe it's about a 50/50 split.
 
Unfavorable winds are much easier to manage with a lower AOA. If you don't agree with that you haven't flown on a narrow enough strip in crossing winds. Getting the tail down in my planes is a function of flap retraction. That's another topic for high performance tail dragger pilots.
 
Sazzy said:
Is there a reason for landing differently? Is it personal preference? Are there weather/wind conditions that would dictate which type of landing would be more appropriate for either wheel or three point?
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What'd you wanna go and open a can of worms like that for? You may as well ask about high wing vs low wing or opinions on flying single engine IFR over water at night.


A bunch of schools of thought on wheel vs 3-pt. In most lighter singles, wheel landings are used for crosswinds and 3-pt for everything else. The problem with that is that wheel landing is a much different technique than 3-pt. So if you only do them when you need to landing crosswinds, you end up being very well practiced in 3-pts and not so well practiced in wheel landings. Then when the winds are tricky you can find yourself in a situation where you're not using the landing technique that you're really good at and instead using a completely different technique that you've never really mastered at a time when you most need to be at the top of your game.

It was because of this that the guy I worked for flying banners wanted all his pilots to wheel land only. His feeling was you can use a wheel landing in any winds, you can't really do the same with 3-pts and if you use wheel landings every time, you get really good at them run less of a chance of end up in a ground loop. While I was working for him, I got to see why he felt that way about it.

There was another banner company in the area that did the opposite. They forbid their pilots from wheel landing, 3-pts only. But they operated from private strip that was a thin runway carved out of thick stands of trees on both sides. On days when there were crosswinds, the wind all but stopped once you got below the trees so crosswinds weren't an issue for them. Unless they had to land someplace else. Which happened rares but did happen. I was on the ground a few times at airports when their guys had to land in cross wind conditions that were for us, pretty mild. For them? Oh it was ugly. The guys I saw managed to get it on the ground, but only just and like I said, for us it was conditions we didn't bat an eyelash at.

Ever since then I've had a similar opinion as the guy I worked for back then. I don't say do wheel landings every time. But I do say do them much more often than just in crosswinds. Every other landing? Every third landing? Doing them that often keeps you proficient at both so you have the skills available when you need them most.
 
Stewartb said:
Unfavorable winds are much easier to manage with a lower AOA. If you don't agree with that you haven't flown on a narrow enough strip in crossing winds. Getting the tail down in my planes is a function of flap retraction. That's another topic for high performance tail dragger pilots.
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That’s where we have to be careful with these discussions, and note (as you did) where certain statements aren’t really relevant to taildragger newbies...I think a lot of what people think is “required” is either misunderstanding that a statement only applies to a small subset of operations, or misunderstanding that a technique used for training is necessary in real life.
 
It's not just about getting the tail down. With a wheel landing you can touch down faster, so you have better control in strong or gusty winds. Then after the plane is firmly planted and slowing down, you can lower the tail without having to deal with the touchdown at the same time.
 
Welcome to the world of Tailwheel flying. Its definitely a blast!

I am going to second some of the comments already listed here and add a few thoughts of my own.

First the things I'll second:
1) You need proficiency in both
2) Heavier aircraft you will almost never 3-pt
3) In light aircraft, it can be quite airplane dependent. Some light tailwheels take to wheel landing better than 3-pts while others prefer 3-pts over wheel landings; each plane has its own personality to learn and anyone who has flown several types of light tailwheels will tell you the same thing about ground handling in general (some require quick jabs on the controls to keep it centered while others are more press and hold)

Some thoughts of my own:
Its not impossible to 3-pt a heavy airplane but they are naturally more suited towards wheel landings. In addition to the risk of damaging the tailwheel in heavy airplanes, wheel landings are preferred because the tailwheel is a castering tailwheel with no additional steering authority and with all that weight you also have a much greater momentum to counter to keep it steady. At the low, near stall airspeeds recommended/required for a 3-pt landing, you can run out of rudder/steering authority and not have sufficient speed or power readily available to take back to the sky.

This is also why wheel landings are usually "recommended" for gusty/crosswind conditions. You have a higher speed so you are closer to flying speed so if you feel the need to reject the landing, it is easier to take back to the sky. Additionally, there is more airflow over the control surfaces so you have more control authority and with a higher speed, the crosswind has less effect on the plane's direction of movement. Lastly, you control when you put the tailwheel down meaning if you catch a gust on touchdown, you can keep the tail up a little longer and stabilize yourself before bringing the tail down whereas you are more committed in a 3-pt configuration near stall. Be aware that in most airplanes the transition from tail-high to tail-low is one of the most unstable positions you can possibly be in on landing as you lose steering authority in the transition (rudder becomes ineffective as the plane slows and the tailwheel is ineffective until its firmly planted on the ground).

Wheel landings can also be quite helpful in landing in the back country for a variety of reasons; off the top of my head the 2 I can think of is prolonging an approach to a sandbar (i.e. water skiing) and testing landing surfaces to confirm their ability to support the plane.

Ultimately, what is easier or harder or what you should is often a personal decision. Some such find wheel landings incredibly easy while others find them quite difficult and the same can be said about 3-pt landings. The debate is still largely unsettled even today and often revolves more around pilot ability and comfort (which can be as much about the plane they are flying as it is their ability) than anything else.

Last some reading recommendations (note some of these may be difficult to find):
1) The Lost Art by Burke Mees - A satirical action-adventure "novel" that covers the "lost art" of tailwheel flying. It discusses many topics of tailwheel flying, ADM and other aspects in a fun, funny way while doing a fantastic job of distilling down concepts to their simplest form. This is not a "professionally published book" so it may be difficult to find.
2) The Compleat Taildragger by Harvey S. Plourde - A more technical look at tailwheel flying. It definitely covers all you need to know but its a bit more dry and can sometimes get overly technical. This book is out of print but can easily be found used on Amazon.
3) Notes on the Tailwheel Checkout (and an introduction to ski flying) by Burke Mees - Probably the next best thing to The Lost Art. Its more technical so its not as fun of a read and like compleat taildragger can get you lost in the weeds in some places but it generally does a good job of striking the balance between overly technical and what you need to know as a tailwheel pilot. I actually liked reading this almost as the "technical companion piece" to The Lost Art.


To finish, this is a debate that you will make your own decisions in and while I appreciate you looking for additional outside opinions, you should consult your CFI and get comfortable with your flying in a tailwheel using both wheel and 3-pt landings before consulting the internet.

One of my favorite passages from The Lost Art covers this topic/debate:
"There are some sensitive topics in tailwheel flying. People have strong opinions, friendships have been ended and brothers estranged over this issue. It was a good question though. Really each kind of landing has its relative merits and I'll explain them when the time comes. The big guy was right though, whenever someone makes a definitive statement that you should always make one kind of landing, it usually just means they arent very good at the other kind. Of course eventually you will have to stand up for your own thoughts on this divisive matter, and when you do, remember that you will have no credibility unless you can do both kinds of landing equally well."
 
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What some of these comments point out is, pilots are an opinionated bunch! There are as many opinions as there are types of tailwheel planes. Learn both, learn when you feel comfortable using each technique. I prefer tailwheel landings in most planes, I understand the use for wheel landings. Let us know which one you end up favoring.
 
I have flown lots of different taildraggers. 98% of the time I 3 point.
There is 1 airplane I fly that likes to wheel land, the Stearman. Any other biplane I have flown I 3 point but for some reason the Stearman likes to wheel land really nice.
I did 1 wheel landing in my Cessna 140 and it was very forceful trying to make it act right. After that all the rest of the landings were 3 point.
 
I liked landing my Cessna 185, in calm winds, with the "Bill White" method of wheel landing. After 1st wheel grazing...............no need to touch the control wheel at all. Just let it go!!

wC8U7p.jpg
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
I was never a fan of wheel landings in strong gusty winds. You have to get the tail down eventually and I would just as soon start with it on the ground. You might lose some crosswind capability but it beats loosing control getting the tail on the ground after landing.

But that is just my opinion. You have to demonstrate proficiency in both.
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one shared by a lot of us.
 
kgruber said:
I liked landing my Cessna 185, in calm winds, with the "Bill White" method of wheel landing. After 1st wheel grazing...............no need to touch the control wheel at all. Just let it go!!

wC8U7p.jpg
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That’s how I teach them...a little nose-down trim, and let the airplane do the work.
 
champ driver said:
"Is there a reason for landing differently? Is it personal preference? Are there weather/wind conditions that would dictate which type of landing would be more appropriate for either wheel or three point?"

Yes
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Correct on all counts. And NO is a suitable answer as well. ;)
 
SO much good information and opinions here guys, I appreciate it! I am gonna check out that reading material, also. Thanks so much for the time and attention y'all out into my question!
 
kgruber said:
I liked landing my Cessna 185, in calm winds, with the "Bill White" method of wheel landing. After 1st wheel grazing...............no need to touch the control wheel at all. Just let it go!!

wC8U7p.jpg
Click to expand...


Nobody's gonna ask?!!

I will, who's the purty woman?
 
If you're good at wheel landings in gusty/windy conditions, do that. If you're good at 3-point landings in those conditions, do that instead. That's my advice. Both have pros & cons and there's endless debate, so instead just find out what works best for you and your airplane. Have fun too, that's the main thing.
 
Once upon a time in a former life, I flew the Governor of Alaska to Hooper Bay and the wind was 60+ mph perpendicular to the runway.
<--- In that airplane.

I hovered down to the ramp and used the shack as a windbreak to keep the airplane on the main wheels long enough for him to jump out and he crawled to the bushes.

I had to keep lots of power in to avoid drifting backwards, with the parking brake set...

In those conditions there was no possible way to land other than a wheel landing.
 
I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night so I'm assuming administrator = wife.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I typically wheel land, mostly because I’ve had too many tail wheels fall off the airplane. Maule “recommends against” wheel landings, in part because the geometry of the airplane makes them more difficult, but they work well for me. With vortex generators, a full stall attitude put the tailwheel well below the mains, so a good 3-point was more difficult.
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Even without the vortex thingies, a full stall in the Maule will be a tail first landing - not desirable or easy on tail gear. That’s how many of my initial landings went; tail first plop downs.

But a little later I stopped doing them and realized that a 3 pointer and a full stall don’t necessarily go together. It’s very plane specific.

I stayed proficient in both but did the vast majority of landings as 3 pointers independent of wind. My conclusion is that it’s just part of Maule flying


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
Does your tail drop in a stall? How does the tailwheel hit first if its a full stall landing?

My slat wing Cub will wheel land at 22-23 mph. It'll go slower with power on and the nose high but there's no reason to fly it like that. No plane I've flown will land with the nose way high unless you carry power or excess speed.
 
Stewartb said:
No plane I've flown will land with the nose way high unless you carry power or excess speed.
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Really? Most of the tailwheel airplanes I've flown will touch significantly tailwheel first if you get the stick full aft just before touchdown. J-3 Cub and Stearman are notable exceptions that stall in pretty much a 3-point attitude. I'm sure there are more, but most tailwheel airplanes are not like this.
 
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