Wheel landing vs. Three point?

[MauleSkinner]

Does your tail drop in a stall? How does the tailwheel hit first if its a full stall landing?

no...the tail is touching the ground already. It’s the mains that drop.

My slat wing Cub will wheel land at 22-23 mph. It'll go slower with power on and the nose high but there's no reason to fly it like that. No plane I've flown will land with the nose way high unless you carry power or excess speed.

I’ve flown several that do it without power.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Even without the vortex thingies, a full stall in the Maule will be a tail first landing - not desirable or easy on tail gear. That’s how many of my initial landings went; tail first plop downs.

But a little later I stopped doing them and realized that a 3 pointer and a full stall don’t necessarily go together. It’s very plane specific.

I stayed proficient in both but did the vast majority of landings as 3 pointers independent of wind. My conclusion is that it’s just part of Maule flying


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Most of my Maule time is in an old M4...possibly a little bit different than the big wing/big tail airplanes?

The only non-M-4 I’ve got any significant time in was an M-6 that I gave some instruction in for the owner. Turns out it wasn’t legally an M-6 anymore. If you look at STCs for the airplane, you’ll notice that Maule has one to convert an M-6 to an MX-7...this airplane was the reason. That was the easiest way to actually make it airworthy again.

 

[Mooney Fan]

I had a heck of a time with wheel landings on hard surfaces in the Citabria. Tried everything from planting it with a dash of power to flying it on. Got the 3 landing currency hops. Went to Tehachapi on grass and it wheel landed nicely. A tailwheel will be my last plane someday

 

[Tom-D]

Think about it, Isn't any landing in a trike a wheels landing?

 

[midwestpa24]

Does your tail drop in a stall? How does the tailwheel hit first if its a full stall landing?

The tail isn't dropping. The tailwheel is below the height of the mains when the aircraft is trying to maintain altitude at critical AOA. If you tried to stall your aircraft with losing any altitude prior to the stall break, it would as well. My Citabria will do that, I can land the tailwheel before the mains if I try.

The key is a three point is not necessary a full stall landing in any aircraft. A three point is precisely what it is called, you land in an attitude that allows all three wheels to touch about the same time, perhaps even the tailwheel a split second first. The key is finding the right sight picture for that attitude, and not continuing to flare beyond that so as to strike the tail too early or hard. In that respect it isn't much different than landing a tricycle gear without dragging the tail tie down.

I had a heck of a time with wheel landings on hard surfaces in the Citabria. Tried everything from planting it with a dash of power to flying it on. Got the 3 landing currency hops. Went to Tehachapi on grass and it wheel landed nicely. A tailwheel will be my last plane someday

I wheel land my Citabria all the time. The trick is a little nose down trim that causes you to hold back pressure during the flare, and once the wheels kiss releasing that pressure, not necessarily pushing the stick. Helps my Citabria has larger tires too, you can really feel the drag of them on the pavement/ground and it almost sucks the nose down in a wheel landing.

 

[brcase]

Does your tail drop in a stall? How does the tailwheel hit first if its a full stall landing?

My slat wing Cub will wheel land at 22-23 mph. It'll go slower with power on and the nose high but there's no reason to fly it like that. No plane I've flown will land with the nose way high unless you carry power or excess speed.

Power yes, will get you more nose high. Excess speed will just put you further down the runway when you touch down nose with the stick all the way back or your normal stick position. Your airspeed on landing for a given power/flap combination is essentially the same for a given attitude.

If you raise the nose more than your normal 3 point attitude with excess speed you will balloon. I suppose you could fall back to the runway in a nose higher attitude, but it is probably going to be a hard landing.

Brian

 

[Bill Watson]

The tail isn't dropping. The tailwheel is below the height of the mains when the aircraft is trying to maintain altitude at critical AOA. If you tried to stall your aircraft with losing any altitude prior to the stall break, it would as well. My Citabria will do that, I can land the tailwheel before the mains if I try.

The key is a three point is not necessary a full stall landing in any aircraft. A three point is precisely what it is called, you land in an attitude that allows all three wheels to touch about the same time, perhaps even the tailwheel a split second first. The key is finding the right sight picture for that attitude, and not continuing to flare beyond that so as to strike the tail too early or hard. In that respect it isn't much different than landing a tricycle gear without dragging the tail tie down.



I wheel land my Citabria all the time. The trick is a little nose down trim that causes you to hold back pressure during the flare, and once the wheels kiss releasing that pressure, not necessarily pushing the stick. Helps my Citabria has larger tires too, you can really feel the drag of them on the pavement/ground and it almost sucks the nose down in a wheel landing.

Yes, all that.

My tw experience is limited to the Maule MX7180a. Finding the 3 point attitude, and doing it consistently, was the whole trick.

One of the popular books talked about how one should be able to decide 3 point or wheelie when starting the flare(!). That gave me the clue to just release the back pressure when the mains touched for a wheelie. All of a sudden, piece of cake.

Nothing like landing a tw on grass at night.


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[Stewartb]

There's a trick the best Cub pilots I know use when landing slow and short. On final they work the stick from neutral to full back. Not abruptly, just milk the stick. If the nose lifts they're going too fast.

In short ops there are two camps for landing. Flat with power on or steep with less power. In both cases the goal is to decelerate to landing on a specific spot. I prefer the steeper path since I deal with obstacles much of the time. Take a toy airplane and examine the relative wind and relative ground speed and maybe it'll make sense. Or not. Don't really care.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=278939462739118

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Does your tail drop in a stall? How does the tailwheel hit first if its a full stall landing?

There is no such thing as a full stall landing. Eminent stall landing yes, full stall landing no. If you put your mind to it I suppose you do get the plane to actually stall before touchdown, but I think you'd end up with something called a landing accident at that point rather than a landing.

 

[David Megginson]

I've never flown a taildragger for real, but since I'm a middle-aged white guy, that's not going to stop me from sharing an opinion.

Actually, I'm just going to mention that Langweische seems to be a big fan of wheel landings in Stick and Rudder. If I had a small taildragger, I'd probably tend to wheel landings on nice, long smooth runways (e.g. ›= 1,500 ft), and three-point landings on short, rough surfaces. I'll report back if I ever get my tailwheel endorsement and let you know if I still feel that way then.

D

 

[GeorgeC]

One of the popular books talked about how one should be able to decide 3 point or wheelie when starting the flare(!). That gave me the clue to just release the back pressure when the mains touched for a wheelie. All of a sudden, piece of cake.

My instructor drilled "there is no flare, don't pull" into me, along with "the throttle is a flight control"; just level off and fly it on flat with min sink, burping in some power if necessary. So if I'm trimmed for 65 or 70, I tend to add a touch of forward pressure to strafe the numbers, then relax the forward pressure to level off in ground effect, then apply more forward pressure when the mains touch.

I'm still a low timer. The hardest things to learn have been patience and not to worry about the little things.

 

[David Megginson]

I

My instructor drilled "there is no flare, don't pull" into me, along with "the throttle is a flight control"; just level off and fly it on flat with min sink, burping in some power if necessary. So if I'm trimmed for 65 or 70, I tend to add a touch of forward pressure to strafe the numbers, then relax the forward pressure to level off in ground effect, then apply more forward pressure when the mains touch.

I'm still a low timer. The hardest things to learn have been patience and not to worry about the little things.

I'm a mid-timer (1,200 hours, all nose-dragger), and I'd agree with your instructor. When new pilots try to "flare", they usually balloon. Just keep the wheels off the runway as long as you can—in a nose-dragger, that means the yoke should be back in your lap by the time the mains settle.

Think of it like the old "the floor is lava" game you played as a kid—the runway is lava, so try to keep the wheels from touching it.

D

 

[Bill Watson]

Lots of plane specific stuff here but the one thing common to all taildraggers, wheeled on or 3 pointed, is keeping the thing straight until stopped.

Master that and you’ll keep the plane and your arse in one piece.


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[Tarheelpilot]

I was never a fan of wheel landings in strong gusty winds. You have to get the tail down eventually and I would just as soon start with it on the ground. You might lose some crosswind capability but it beats loosing control getting the tail on the ground after landing.

But that is just my opinion. You have to demonstrate proficiency in both.

That works great right up until you start getting paid to fly tail draggers.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

That works great right up until you start getting paid to fly tail draggers.

Well, once you start getting paid, other things come into play, like limitations, Op-Specs, etcetera. Besides, part of what you get paid for is to operate in a safe manner no matter what the operator's wishes are.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Well, once you start getting paid, other things come into play, like limitations, Op-Specs, etcetera. Besides, part of what you get paid for is to operate in a safe manner no matter what the operator's wishes are.

Yep. I see you understand.

There are times where wheel landings get it done safely and three points don’t. Just takes a little time in the seat to figure it out. Not rocket surgery. It is however not required knowledge to futz around on the weekends and your idea keeps that guy out of the ditch.

 

[Huckster79]

First off... Welcome to the club! Once you go tailwheel you never go back

Also as a side note, I know a couple friends/co-workers that train with your instructor.

In light taildraggers it's largely personal preference, once you get into heavier taildraggers things get a little more specific. Always keep in mind, once you get your tailwheel endorsement that doesn't mean you can hop into any taildragger and be completely fine flying it every single one has an incredibly specific personality. That personality is why I love tailwheel . An example of this, you'll get taught that a tail low wheel landing is the worst possible configuration because it masks the tail and the tailwheel isn't on the ground yet, but in my Skywagon that's the BEST way to land it (like @Stewartb says) because of the springy gear and large tail. . I had gotten to a point where I could grease every landing in any tricycle gear plane I flew... I was bored, but now I still haven't "mastered" the plane I OWN after 200 hours of flying it.

Anyway, back to the original question of 3 pt vs wheel landings. *The following is opinion, not instruction*. I generally prefer wheel landings in all but the shortest/softest field landings. I prefer this because you can deal with one thing at a time, get the wheels planted then bring the tail down, then pin the tailwheel, all while dealing with winds and side-load and tracking straight. With a 3pt landing you have to do all of those things at once and there's a lot more going against you at any given time. Other advantages to wheel landings are better visibility and better wind tolerance.

That being said, 3 pt landings are going to feel more like a tricycle gear plane in how you approach them and are easier when starting out. Flare hold it off... hold it off... touchdown!

No matter how you land it, although tailwheel is more difficult than tricycle gear it gives you waaay more options when landing in the backcountry and is stronger with better prop clearance and easier to put on different things, skis, big tires etc... so it's all worth it objectively too.

Anyway, have fun with it! Champs are lovely airplanes!

Everything he said!

I had 4 years off... all my time in 150 and then 172s, besides my 15 mins of dual in the Ford Tri Motor... I bought a Cessna 140, never landed a taildragger till I bought her- in fact had to take my instructor with me to get her...

Learning tailwheel was addictive, im still a rookie and respect I am not a tw ace yet. I limit my crosswinds far more than I did in the 172...

well I flew my friends 172 last week... he’s working on getting his medical back, him and his bird needed the time so I flew with him...well I was anxious to try my hand at the 172 again. Wow- I do NOT regret buying a taildragger now! I seriously forgot to pack a lunch for something to do once the mains were planted... once you can land a taildragger those nosedraggers just loose their appeal and the challenge seems erased...

Now I’m a couple hundred hour guy with 50 hours in the tailwheel after a 4 year break... I’m no seasoned ace... after our first landing my 500+ hour friend says “I gotta learn the pattern work and landing like you do it!” I told him once he’s got medical back in hand go get his TW endorsement- period. Oh and fly with Larry who will pull your power if you ever get that bird farther than gliding distance from the airport in the pattern!

I’d never go back completely- and yes nose draggers May have their place but for me I’ll take a TW now any day!

 

[Bill Watson]

There are times where wheel landings get it done safely and three points don’t. Just takes a little time in the seat to figure it out. Not rocket surgery. It is however not required knowledge to futz around on the weekends and your idea keeps that guy out of the ditch.

My time in various types is limited to non-existent but I’m thinking there’s still a lot of plane specific characteristics at play in the wheelie vs 3 point decisions.

I watched many dozens, perhaps hundreds, of Cessna Bird Dog operations in high winds. That is, glider tow pilots launching us on good ridge days with winds 15 knots and higher. A good ridge day meant that all takeoffs and landings were in a direct 90 deg cross wind, plus/minus 30deg. But 90 degrees meant a perfect day. All landings where wheelies.

Always wished I had some stick time in one of those planes but watching them put getting the endorsement and the Maule high on my list.


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[Huckster79]

I land three point and sideways...crosswind gear here .

Cheater!

 

[Bill Watson]

well I flew my friends 172 last week... he’s working on getting his medical back, him and his bird needed the time so I flew with him...well I was anxious to try my hand at the 172 again. Wow- I do NOT regret buying a taildragger now! I seriously forgot to pack a lunch for something to do once the mains were planted... once you can land a taildragger those nosedraggers just loose their appeal and the challenge seems erased...

Now I’m a couple hundred hour guy with 50 hours in the tailwheel after a 4 year break... I’m no seasoned ace... after our first landing my 500+ hour friend says “I gotta learn the pattern work and landing like you do it!” I told him once he’s got medical back in hand go get his TW endorsement- period. Oh and fly with Larry who will pull your power if you ever get that bird farther than gliding distance from the airport in the pattern!

I’d never go back completely- and yes nose draggers May have their place but for me I’ll take a TW now any day!

It’s heresy among many but learning to fly TW can make you a better pilot.

Truth be told, every landing in my Maule was a challenge to get 100% right. For 6 or 7 years I flew just about every single week getting 2 takeoffs and landings per. Became totally confident in it and flew it in all conditions but if every landing were scored on a 1-10 scale, I probably averaged an 8. Tens were a rare joy, sixes popped up whenever I wasn’t 100% focused.

Then I had a chance to fly it twice a day for about 3 months - literally 7 days a week, all conditions. After about 2 weeks I was averaging 9, perhaps 9.5 on the landings. Frequency is what produces proficiency in a task (see ‘surgery’).

Then I switched planes from the TW Maule to the RV10. For the next year and a half my RV10 landings from test flight on were 10s. That’s going from zero time to 150 hours. No bounces, no bobbles, sweet one wheelers in cross winds. Just wow!

Then I bounced one and a certain decline set in. 8 years later most landings are 10s but there are plenty of 9s and occasionally I bounce one or screech a tire, no sixes though. The ‘10 is just so easy to fly and land it’s sometimes hard to focus.

I loved my Maule and that confounded tailwheel.



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