What's the going rate for a O-540 overhaul?

[Tom-D]

You pay for what you get as well. Nothing says that a smaller shop with less overhead cannot produce an overhauled engine that is just as good if not better than the higher priced shops.

That's me, I contact the labor, every thing else is on your CC, You want fancy overhauled cylinders done by some one special? great send them over, you pay for them, shipping and all. you want a new crank, great I'll see it when it arrives.
You want your engine painted hot titty pink? we can do that.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

yup....see post #27.

 

[hindsight2020]

Do cylinders have to be inspected and/or forcibly reconditioned as part of a bottom overhaul? I know it's sensible and customary because of the practicality involved in having the engine cracked open , but is it required by the reg? And yes, I'm aware bottom OH is the only legal kind of "overhaul", as top overhaul is a non-term...

 

[tyndall]

Nothing says that a smaller shop with less overhead cannot produce an overhauled engine that is just as good if not better than the higher priced shops.

True. But.

That smaller shop isn't going to have the parts on hand, so you could be waiting a month while they try to source a third-party overhauled fuel pump. Bad crank? If it's scrap will they have another? If you are overhauling your cylinders, are they doing it in-house or sending them out where you get in queue with every other A&P building on his toolbox? Do they run the engine on a dyno, or do they let you be their guinea pig on the first flight?

Then there's the warranty. If a small shop is subbing out all the work, what happens when a part fails? Do they make you wait while they send it out again? or do they take responsibility and get you a replacement immediately? What happens if there is a problem that scraps the entire engine? Can they send you a replacement or is the shop too small to have a $50k engine in stock?

Anyone can build a good engine by subbing everything out, given enough time. What makes an engine worth more is the service. Do you spend $30k and take your chances, or do you spend $35k and know that if something does go wrong the company has your back?

 

[midcap]

I did see this, either conti or lycoming had a big as in trade a plane that they offer factory financing for their engines.

i thought that was cool

 

[Tom-D]

True. But.

That smaller shop isn't going to have the parts on hand, so you could be waiting a month while they try to source a third-party overhauled fuel pump. Bad crank? If it's scrap will they have another? If you are overhauling your cylinders, are they doing it in-house or sending them out where you get in queue with every other A&P building on his toolbox? Do they run the engine on a dyno, or do they let you be their guinea pig on the first flight?

Then there's the warranty. If a small shop is subbing out all the work, what happens when a part fails? Do they make you wait while they send it out again? or do they take responsibility and get you a replacement immediately? What happens if there is a problem that scraps the entire engine? Can they send you a replacement or is the shop too small to have a $50k engine in stock?

Anyone can build a good engine by subbing everything out, given enough time. What makes an engine worth more is the service. Do you spend $30k and take your chances, or do you spend $35k and know that if something does go wrong the company has your back?

I can have any part in America on my work bench overnight.
Not many shops will have a crank grinder, or a case lapping machine.
plus the fact that your local A&P works at a lessor labor rate than large shops.

 

[tyndall]

I can have any part in America on my work bench overnight.
Not many shops will have a crank grinder, or a case lapping machine.
plus the fact that your local A&P works at a lessor labor rate than large shops.

Good for you. Have a cookie.

When a customer wants Lycoming cylinders and the vendors are backordered, which frequently happens, what do you do? Go to your shelf and grab one of the sets you have in stock? Charge the customer while you are hunting down a set some little shop has squirreled away? Sell the customer something he didn't want? Or make excuses why it's not your fault and tell him he'll have to wait a few months.

After you've paid your local A&P 2/3 to 3/4 of what a large shop might charge, what do you have? Possibly a good running engine that will forever have the stigma of being slapped together on the tailgate of a pickup. More than likely difficult traceability and no warranty when the A&P retires or dies. Might as well keep doing IRAN's as the aircraft value won't be increased much over a runout.

You haven't said what your warranty is or how you deal with claims. We've had a customer call in the afternoon with a bad cam on a Pratt and we were on a flight (plus another three hours in a rental car) with the tools and parts the next morning.

 

[midcap]

Good for you. Have a cookie.

When a customer wants Lycoming cylinders and the vendors are backordered, which frequently happens, what do you do? Go to your shelf and grab one of the sets you have in stock? Charge the customer while you are hunting down a set some little shop has squirreled away? Sell the customer something he didn't want? Or make excuses why it's not your fault and tell him he'll have to wait a few months.

After you've paid your local A&P 2/3 to 3/4 of what a large shop might charge, what do you have? Possibly a good running engine that will forever have the stigma of being slapped together on the tailgate of a pickup. More than likely difficult traceability and no warranty when the A&P retires or dies. Might as well keep doing IRAN's as the aircraft value won't be increased much over a runout.

You haven't said what your warranty is or how you deal with claims. We've had a customer call in the afternoon with a bad cam on a Pratt and we were on a flight (plus another three hours in a rental car) with the tools and parts the next morning.

Do I get the same service with a 0-320?

 

[Tom-D]

Good for you. Have a cookie.

When a customer wants Lycoming cylinders and the vendors are backordered, which frequently happens, what do you do? Go to your shelf and grab one of the sets you have in stock? Charge the customer while you are hunting down a set some little shop has squirreled away? Sell the customer something he didn't want? Or make excuses why it's not your fault and tell him he'll have to wait a few months.

After you've paid your local A&P 2/3 to 3/4 of what a large shop might charge, what do you have? Possibly a good running engine that will forever have the stigma of being slapped together on the tailgate of a pickup. More than likely difficult traceability and no warranty when the A&P retires or dies. Might as well keep doing IRAN's as the aircraft value won't be increased much over a runout.

You haven't said what your warranty is or how you deal with claims. We've had a customer call in the afternoon with a bad cam on a Pratt and we were on a flight (plus another three hours in a rental car) with the tools and parts the next morning.

You forgot. My customers buy all parts. My customers are smart enough to know when their manufacturers have parts problems and plan ahead.
My 182/0-470 customer has a new set of ECI cylinders ready to go, 2 of my 0-300 customers are collecting the parts as they can afford to overhaul their 0-300 when they need to.
Plan ahead folks, you can spread out the cost of any overhaul. you don't need to be at the mercy of the big engine builders.

 

[172andyou]

There are quite a few corners that can be cut to save money. Some legal, some not so.
[...]
I won't cut corners or take chances with bottom dollar engine builders, thank you.

Very helpful. Thanks.

 

[tyndall]

Do I get the same service with a 0-320?

Not a lot can be done internally with an O-320 in the airframe, so we'd pay to have your A&P r&r it, shipping, etc.. We fix it and send it back. No waiting for some sub-contractor to decide whose fault it is. You're back in the air happy, while we deal with the vendors. Major failure? We'd probably send an engine from stock or build another while your mechanic is still pulling yours. We've got six guys whose only job is to assemble engines - not disassemble, clean, inspect, NDT, machine or deal with parts. You're not sitting while your builder is off doing an annual or fishing.

If you bought the parts yourself and there is a problem with fit or failure, you get to finance all the parts and labor while your builder and the parts manufacturer point fingers. Or you can sit and watch your summer flying weather go by while waiting for someone to take responsibility.

Bottom line is big shop, shadetree hack, doesn't matter. Pick the level of risk and the price point you are comfortable with.

 

[Timbeck2]

So there's no in-between with you? You're either a big shop or a shade tree hack. I get it.

 

[charlie]

Do cylinders have to be inspected and/or forcibly reconditioned as part of a bottom overhaul? I know it's sensible and customary because of the practicality involved in having the engine cracked open , but is it required by the reg? And yes, I'm aware bottom OH is the only legal kind of "overhaul", as top overhaul is a non-term...
Bottom overhaul is also a "non term". Engine overhaul must be done in accordance with the manufacturers overhaul manual which requires cylinders be overhauled or new. Charlie Melot Zephyr Engines

 

[kyleb]

So there's no in-between with you? You're either a big shop or a shade tree hack. I get it.

There are no shades of grey in today's world. We must polarize every question such that everyone is locked at one or the other end of the spectrum with no wiggle room.


Seriously, big shops and locals both have advantages and disadvantages. Find the compromise that best fits your situation and run with it, watching for warning signs along the way.

 

[Timbeck2]

Thanks Kyleb, as I was just playing devil's advocate. There are many new owners like me on this forum who don't know where to go to get things done, overhauled, etc. I think this is why these forums are so popular because there are the experienced guys who are willing to tell their stories and share their experience with these shops. I'm not of the belief that you have to be a large company to stand behind your product and offer a warranty. I think many here would be willing to wait a few days until parts come in rather than expect an engine to be in the airplane as soon as possible. I sent my magnetos into a company that specializes in magneto overhauls; they had to order parts to fix them. It wasn't a big deal.

 

[midcap]

Thanks Kyleb, as I was just playing devil's advocate. There are many new owners like me on this forum who don't know where to go to get things done, overhauled, etc. I think this is why these forums are so popular because there are the experienced guys who are willing to tell their stories and share their experience with these shops. I'm not of the belief that you have to be a large company to stand behind your product and offer a warranty. I think many here would be willing to wait a few days until parts come in rather than expect an engine to be in the airplane as soon as possible. I sent my magnetos into a company that specializes in magneto overhauls; they had to order parts to fix them. It wasn't a big deal.

it's very good to know these things.

I have to qualms on spending money, I just refuse to spend money on things that aren't necessary.

 

[tyndall]

So there's no in-between with you? You're either a big shop or a shade tree hack. I get it.

Yes, there is. That's why I said "Pick the level of risk and the price point you are comfortable with." I don't consider Zephyr a big shop and there is nothing shade tree about them. Just a good shop putting out good engines at a decent price. For a private owner, middle of the road is where it's at. Better to find a balance of cost/warranty/quality than be at the mercy of a local A&P who blames everyone else for failures.

You think many here would be willing to wait a few days until parts come in. That's true. But if I had a nickel for every private owner that got stuck waiting weeks or months, I'd be retired by now. We've repaired factory remans still under warranty because Lycoming had a three month turnaround. When your new cam fails and the builder is blaming the manufacturer and they are blaming him and all you know is nothing is getting fixed, it's due to your choice in builders. If you supplied the parts and are now playing middleman, it's worse. Again, choose your level of service. Someone with a C150 that flies 25 hours a year might not care about the wait. A Cirrus partnership might. Read your own First Annual thread. It goes from a nice and level 'getting things done' to complete frustration over the time it took because one person dropped the ball.

 

[Tom-D]

Do cylinders have to be inspected and/or forcibly reconditioned as part of a bottom overhaul? I know it's sensible and customary because of the practicality involved in having the engine cracked open , but is it required by the reg? And yes, I'm aware bottom OH is the only legal kind of "overhaul", as top overhaul is a non-term...
Bottom overhaul is also a "non term". Engine overhaul must be done in accordance with the manufacturers overhaul manual which requires cylinders be overhauled or new. Charlie Melot Zephyr Engines

That's not what the FAR's say.
43.2 Records of overhaul and rebuilding.
(a) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part as being overhauled unless—

(1) Using methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, and reassembled; and

(2) It has been tested in accordance with approved standards and technical data, or in accordance with current standards and technical data acceptable to the Administrator, which have been developed and documented by the holder of the type certificate, supplemental type certificate, or a material, part, process, or appliance approval under part 21 of this chapter.

It is legal to disassemble, clean and inspect, and put it back together test it and call it overhauled, That's legal, but not very smart.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

why?