What's legal ?

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
A customer sends their crankshaft to a machine shop (CRS) who has FAA approved maintenance repair procedures.
This repair station inspects the crank and red tags it for a discrepancy not described or called for in the overhaul manual, or any service bulletin.

Here is the question.

Providing the crankshaft passes all other inspections given in the overhaul manual, can that crank be returned to service.

second question, is there anything written by the FAA giving guidance on this?
 
Get the crank back and send it to another shop. See if they’ll pass it.
 
DutchRoller said:
And then another and then another and then another ... until you get the result you want.
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It was a common action longer ago from what I understand. Not all repair stations have the same standards. Haven’t heard much about it recently.

With as vague as Tom’s question is, we have no idea how trivial the problem (if there is one) is, or how major it is. For all we know, this could be simply be getting rejected for reasons related to the repair station and what their capabilities are. Another repair station may be able to make the necessary repairs.
 
mondtster said:
It was a common action longer ago from what I understand. Not all repair stations have the same standards. Haven’t heard much about it recently.

With as vague as Tom’s question is, we have no idea how trivial the problem (if there is one) is, or how major it is. For all we know, this could be simply be getting rejected for reasons related to the repair station and what their capabilities are. Another repair station may be able to make the necessary repairs.
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That is not the question. This is not a question of how bad the discrepancy is. The question is very simple, is it legal to return to service a red tagged item?
 
Tom-D said:
That is not the question. This is not a question of how bad the discrepancy is. The question is very simple, is it legal to return to service a red tagged item?
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Who has the final authority in this case? How far are you willing to stick your neck out?
 
Tom-D said:
This isn't about the liability of it.
Is it legal?
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My point was, it is up to the installer to determine if the part is acceptable, regardless of what paperwork accompanies it. Are you willing to install it and sign it off?
 
mondtster said:
My point was, it is up to the installer to determine if the part is acceptable, regardless of what paperwork accompanies it. Are you willing to install it and sign it off?
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That is my interpretation too.
It comes down to the liability of it, because if some one says it's bad. yada. and so forth.

I was hoping if anyone had other guidance they'd share it.
 
If it were me I would not touch it unless someone else deemed it serviceable and had it in writing.
 
Tom-D said:
This repair station inspects the crank and red tags it for a discrepancy not described or called for in the overhaul manual, or any service bulletin...can that crank be returned to service.
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Weak example but it depends. But specific to sending it to a CRS for work, once the part gets past the CRS preliminary inspection any further options available to that part will depend on what the approved CRS manuals state on the disposition of "scrapped" parts. Unserviceable items are one thing (green tagged) but some procedures require marking or mutilating a "scrapped" part. There is/was guidance on this plus some discussion in guidance on setting up repair stations.
 
Bell206 said:
Weak example but it depends. But specific to sending it to a CRS for work, once the part gets past the CRS preliminary inspection any further options available to that part will depend on what the approved CRS manuals state on the disposition of "scrapped" parts. Unserviceable items are one thing (green tagged) but some procedures require marking or mutilating a "scrapped" part. There is/was guidance on this plus some discussion in guidance on setting up repair stations.
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Doesn't answer the question, Is it legal to use a part that has been condemned by a CRS.

If you send in a radio for repair, and it comes back with a red tag, can you have it repaired by another and then use It?

If the crank is condemned for a problem not required by the overhaul manual. can the CRS over ride the manual legally.
 
1RTK1 said:
If it were me I would not touch it unless someone else deemed it serviceable and had it in writing.
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That's a liability issue not a legal one.
Clip4 said:
This is why scuba shops drill holes in condemned tanks.
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A few years ago, there was a shop that was cutting helo-blades inhalf. They got sued for a lot of money, for destroying material that did not belong to them.
 
Tom-D said:
Doesn't answer the question, Is it legal to use a part that has been condemned by a CRS.
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No, you're missing the point. If the CRS manual requires to cut the crank in half because it is considered "red tagged" or scrapped you have no option to use it again. It's all in the details.
Tom-D said:
can the CRS over ride the manual legally.
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A CRS is mandated to follow their approved RSM or QCM whether it follows the OEM manual or not. Like I said, this is a weak example.
 
Tom-D said:
A customer sends their crankshaft to a machine shop (CRS) who has FAA approved maintenance repair procedures.
This repair station inspects the crank and red tags it for a discrepancy not described or called for in the overhaul manual, or any service bulletin.

Here is the question.

Providing the crankshaft passes all other inspections given in the overhaul manual, can that crank be returned to service.

second question, is there anything written by the FAA giving guidance on this?
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Misleading scenario.

Edit: This actually does sound familiar.
 
Bell206 said:
No, you're missing the point. If the CRS manual requires to cut the crank in half because it is considered "red tagged" or scrapped you have no option to use it again. It's all in the details.

A CRS is mandated to follow their approved RSM or QCM whether it follows the OEM manual or not. Like I said, this is a weak example.
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Does it really matter to answer the question as put? If a CRS red tagged any product for any reason other than what the MM calls, for is it legal to use it ?
 
Tom-D said:
Does it really matter to answer the question as put? If a CRS red tagged any product for any reason other than what the MM calls, for is it legal to use it ?
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What does your contract/work order state? What work did you request?
 
IANAL but I would say that since the claimed discrepancy is not part of any documented specification or procedure then it could be challenged at least. There has to be a higher authority within the FAA or the manufacturer of the crank to consult?
 
I never had a reason to look into this one, so I don't have an answer. But the first question I would ask on the pure "is it legal" issue is, is a red tag anything official from a regulatory standpoint? Is there a reg or FAA guidance document talking about declarations of non-serviceability and saying that once a part has been declared non-serviceable is forever verboten? Offhand, I'm not aware of any FAA form for "condemnation" of a part, just the 8130-3 Return to Service form.

Liability is a separate question. If one person says, "this part is condemned. It cannot be reapaired," it doesn't necessarily mean someone else can't do so or that changes in machinery technology can make something unrepairable 40 years ago (or even 4 months ago) repairable today. But if it then fails, watch out...
 
Tom-D said:
That's a liability issue not a legal one.

A few years ago, there was a shop that was cutting helo-blades inhalf. They got sued for a lot of money, for destroying material that did not belong to them.
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I don’t know what a hello blade cost, but I am reasonably certain it is less than the value of my life.
 
what does a red tag mean to the faa? I can’t find any reference to it.
 
Salty said:
what does a red tag mean to the faa? I can’t find any reference to it.
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Looks like you and I have the same question.

You won't find an FAA reference to the color tags. That's industry convention based, if I recall correctly, a military method of easily identifying the condition of parts, particularly in the field. The yellow tag is an indicator the part has been returned to service, but it is not the official document indicating compliance with Part 43 requirements.
 
Sounds similar to airworthiness of an aircraft. A mechanic can’t declare it unairworthy, they can only declare it airworthy.
 
Tag color not withstanding, the crank was indentified as unserviceable.
 
Clip4 said:
Tag color not withstanding, the crank was indentified as unserviceable.
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I would identify it as unserviceable because I can’t service it. Doesn’t mean anything as far as legality with the faa goes.

What FAA form is a red tag?
 
AC 20-62 seems to offer some guidance. If you have the history of the part and someone can test it for compliance, then selling it is legit.

However when you sell it, you’ll have to disclose that history, which includes the failed inspection status and subsequent retest. I do not think any prudent pilot would want that part in their engine. So the value of selling it may not be justified by the testing cost.
 
Tom-D said:
Does it really matter to answer the question as put?
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Sure, but the "question as put" does not have a singular answer. Each CRS would have its own specific answer on how that part is documented scrapped or returned back to you and in what condition per their approved manuals. If the CRS QCM requires permanent marking of a scrapped part then the question would be moot. Had you asked if a part was declared "unserviceable" then you might have something.
Tom-D said:
If a CRS red tagged any product for any reason other than what the MM calls, for is it legal to use it ?
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But to give you a hypothetical answer: no. The documentation you would receive from the CRS with the part would declare it "scrapped" and there is plenty of FAA guidance on the dispositions of scrapped parts. Your review per the MM would have no legal bearing on how the CRS determined the part status as they are required to follow their approved RSM/QCM. Now if you want to simply throw that initial CRS documentation in the trash and try another shop then that becomes another issue which is addressed in the FARs and other guidance.
Here's an example of one CRS's procedure: (their Form SA33 becomes part of the items record along with the CRS signed release. No different than if you give an owner a list of disc per Part 43.11(a)(5).
upload_2019-2-6_8-14-45.png
 
This probably isn't germane, but "red tagged" parts can be returned to service, with one important proviso.
Say, for example, a part had damage that would render it unserviceable. The part would be "red tagged" at that time. Some entity - either the original equipment manufacturer, or a repair facility, comes up with a repair that is acceptable to the manufacturer and/or the Administrator. The repair is performed, and the former "red tagged" part is now serviceable.
 
Salty said:
I would identify it as unserviceable because I can’t service it. Doesn’t mean anything as far as legality with the faa goes.

What FAA form is a red tag?
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Legal? Involuntary manslaughter occurs when the agent has no intention (mens rea) of committing murder, but caused the death of another through recklessness or criminal negligence.
 
Clip4 said:
Legal? Involuntary manslaughter occurs when the agent has no intention (mens rea) of committing murder, but caused the death of another through recklessness or criminal negligence.
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No idea how that relates to my post.
 
Tom-D said:
A customer sends their crankshaft to a machine shop (CRS) who has FAA approved maintenance repair procedures.
This repair station inspects the crank and red tags it for a discrepancy not described or called for in the overhaul manual, or any service bulletin.

Here is the question.

Providing the crankshaft passes all other inspections given in the overhaul manual, can that crank be returned to service.

second question, is there anything written by the FAA giving guidance on this?
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I cannot really think of a discrepancy that wouldn't be covered by the manual that would DQ that crank.
 
Clip4 said:
Legal? Involuntary manslaughter occurs when the agent has no intention (mens rea) of committing murder, but caused the death of another through recklessness or criminal negligence.
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that's a liability issue.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I cannot really think of a discrepancy that wouldn't be covered by the manual that would DQ that crank.
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To start with, the Overhaul manual for the 0-300-A thru D does not give any criteria for corrosion on the prop flange, in fact they don't even mention it, Yet A.S.S. will red tag the crank for it.
 
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