What would you do? Question about following towers instructions.

I would offset to the left (for right traffic) then ask for clarification on where to turn crosswind. I wouldn't turn crosswind before receiving clarification - what if the jet had to go missed, or do a go around himself.
 
"Make right traffic runway 26"


If you are flying straight in for runway 26 and you are on a two mile final.

First if he wanted you to fly behind the challenger, I think he would have said make a right 360 and follow the challenger.

Second, it seems that the controller did not have complete situational awareness or he would not have canceled you landing clearance ( it happens) so be carful when things start becoming abnormal that is when accidents happen.

There can be planes in the pattern at a controlled airport flying on both a right downwind and a left downwind at the same time.

I think he safest thing to do with a vaguely worded "make right traffic" instruction is to treat it like a go around (2 miles out), start climbing to pattern altitude while offsetting to the right side of the runway, when at midfield I would state, at midfield would like to start right crosswind for right downwind to enter the right pattern.
 
Larry in TN said:
When a controller is not very specific in his instructions it is usually because those specifics don't matter. If they were important, he would have given more specific instructions. There's nothing in the original post to indicate that there was any other traffic in the pattern.

As described, I might have asked his to call the crosswind just to avoid wasting time by delaying crosswind longer than necessary.
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When a controller says something that doesn't make sense, it is often a mistake.

Like, "make right traffic" when you're arriving from the left.
 
If in doubt, ask. But I think step 1 for me would be to turn 90 degrees to the right. Tower wants you on right traffic so you are going to go that way sooner or later, and there is a big jet coming up fast behind you so going perpendicular to his path will get you as far out of the way as possible in the shortest time.
 
orange said:
They do this a lot at my airport, they have you break off final and join the downwind (right/left as instructed). In this case, you make a right 180* turn to join the right downwind (extended). And fly a normal base and final.
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Every weekend at FRG:mad:. I usually say I can keep max forward speed until 2 miles out.
 
What didn't make sense to me what the request to make right traffic to a runway I'm pointed directly at. I'd be thinking 'what does he expect me to do?' and the responses in this thread tell me that the correct answer would be to ask tower to clarify.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It's more like saying "right final."
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But there's only one final, whether you're flying right or left traffic. Right upwind, for right traffic, would be offset to the left. If you just say "upwind," how does traffic on downwind know you aren't on the same side of the airport?
 
Lindberg said:
But there's only one final, whether you're flying right or left traffic. Right upwind, for right traffic, would be offset to the left. If you just say "upwind," how does traffic on downwind know you aren't on the same side of the airport?
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Huh? Can you cite an FAA reference that says that?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Huh? Can you cite an FAA reference that says that?
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Sure. From the Airplane Flying Handbook p. 7-4:

The upwind leg is a course flown parallel to the landing runway in the same direction as landing traffic. The upwind leg is flown at controlled airports and after go-arounds. When necessary, the upwind leg is the part of the traffic pattern in which the pilot will transition from the final approach to the climb altitude to initiate a go-around. When a safe altitude is attained, the pilot should commence a shallow bank turn to the upwind side of the airport. This allows better visibility of the runway for departing aircraft.
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The leg opposite final is referred to as the departure leg in the text and illustrations.

Also AIM 4-3-1.

4-3-1.jpg
 
Lindberg said:
Sure. From the Airplane Flying Handbook p. 7-4:



The leg opposite final is referred to as the departure leg in the text and illustrations.

Also AIM 4-3-1.

4-3-1.jpg
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Sorry, I don't see where the upwind leg in the AIM diagram or the AFM excerpt is referred to as "left upwind" or "right upwind." I always go around either straight ahead or, if I am concerned about traffic below, to the right of the runway so I can see it out the left window. Doesn't matter if it's right or left traffic. You know, the "This allows better visibility of the runway for departing aircraft" in the piece you quoted from the AFM.

And, consider a parallel runway where you are on the R runway and going to make right traffic. Would you really fly over the other runway rather than offset to the right?
 
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Where in any FAA doc does it say that upwind is an "offset to the right?". Upwind is either as depicted, an offset to the opposite side of the runway from the downwind OR what is commonly called "departure" is sometimes referred to as "upwind".

Flying over a runway is permitted at a towered airport if that is what the controller tells you to do. I crossed directly above LAX as instructed as ATC. Its the VFR coast route and done all the time, albeit at a right angle.
 
Lindberg said:
But there's only one final, whether you're flying right or left traffic. Right upwind, for right traffic, would be offset to the left. If you just say "upwind," how does traffic on downwind know you aren't on the same side of the airport?
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Lindberg said:
Sure. From the Airplane Flying Handbook p. 7-4:



The leg opposite final is referred to as the departure leg in the text and illustrations.

Also AIM 4-3-1.

4-3-1.jpg
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:confused:??????
 
coloradobluesky said:
Where in any FAA doc does it say that upwind is an "offset to the right?".
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Nowhere. If I was on the left parallel runway, I would offset to the left despite my desire to watch the runway below. I would also do that if I were soloing from the right seat.

That choice does not depend on whether I am in left traffic or right.

My only point is, I don't see any reason or basis for referring to an upwind leg as "right" or "left." Or that "right upwind" is a standard term meaning the left side of the runway.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Sorry, I don't see where the upwind leg in the AIM diagram or the AFM excerpt is referred to as "left upwind" or "right upwind."
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It doesn't say "left downwind" or "left base" either, but most people refer to them that way. If you just call your position as "downwind," it's ambiguous. Just like "upwind." "Left final/right final" is only goofy because there's only one final.

I always go around either straight ahead or, if I am concerned about traffic below, to the right of the runway so I can see it out the left window. Doesn't matter if it's right or left traffic. You know, the "This allows better visibility of the runway for departing aircraft" in the piece you quoted from the AFM.
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So you fly along the "departure leg." And you can do what you like, but you asked for an FAA reference to support my statement that "Right upwind, for right traffic, would be offset to the left." I gave you two.

And, consider a parallel runway where you are on the R runway and going to make right traffic. Would you really fly over the other runway rather than offset to the right?
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I'd probably just stay on the extended centerline. Any significant offset to the right risks going head-to-head with downwind traffic.

Here's another reference, from the AOPA Air Safety Institute with the same information. It also includes this note: "The departure leg is a flight path aligned with and leading from the takeoff runway. The departure leg begins at the point the airplane leaves the ground and continues straight out or until the 90-degree turn onto the crosswind leg. Although inconsistent with the AIM, this leg is often called the upwind leg." So it appears to be a common issue with terminology.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Where in any FAA doc does it say that upwind is an "offset to the right?". Upwind is either as depicted, an offset to the opposite side of the runway from the downwind OR what is commonly called "departure" is sometimes referred to as "upwind".
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It's offset to the opposite side of the downwind. With left traffic, the upwind will be to the right of the runway in use. With right traffic, it will be to the left.
 
Lindberg said:
Sure. From the Airplane Flying Handbook p. 7-4:



The leg opposite final is referred to as the departure leg in the text and illustrations.

Also AIM 4-3-1.

4-3-1.jpg
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And the AFH guidance conflicts with the definition of go around in the P/CG.
 
Velocity173 said:
And the AFH guidance conflicts with the definition of go around in the P/CG.
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There's no conflict.

And the controller didn't say go around. If he or she did, this thread would probably not exist.
 
Ravioli said:
And with parallel runways you do what?
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Having flown out of that type of airport, with both runways extensively used, that's exactly what I'm trying to picture - the pilot, told simply to cancel the landing and make right traffic, deciding she was now on the upwind, had to move to the left, and flying over the parallel runway.

But no one is going to satisfy the other.
 
dmspilot said:
There's no conflict.

And the controller didn't say go around. If he or she did, this thread would probably not exist.
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The AFH says the pilot should parallel the runway during a go around. The P/CG says to overfly the runway unless directed by ATC,
 
Ravioli said:
And with parallel runways you do what?
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Do what when? Your question requires additional context. If you mean where do you fly upwind with parallel runways, one possible answer is that you don't, but it probably depends on many other factors. But that's a different scenario than the one discussed in the the AFH, the AIM, and the AOPA publication.

There are many airports where, for various reasons, non-standard patterns are used. But that doesn't change the standard terminology, which is what I was responding to.
 
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I think it's time to get the Chief Counsel to weigh in on this. Who wants to write the letter?

;)
 
If you're on final 2 miles out and the tower says "Go around, make right traffic," why would you think it reasonable to turn 90 degrees to the right from your present position? What leg of the traffic pattern involves flying outbound on a base leg? (Answer: none.) If there's anyone else flying around, they could very easily be on base or a straight-in. If you're looking for a way to go nose-to-nose with someone else in the pattern, that's one way to do it.

The tower can tell you to "make right traffic" in your takeoff clearance. "Make right traffic. Runway 33, cleared for takeoff." If you are told "Go around. Make right traffic," the same rules apply.

"But in this case we're not landing. We're going around!" The AIM has published a "Key to pattern operations," and none of the instructions involve actually landing.

In response to this specific example noted by the OP, see #4 and #5.

AIM 4-3-3 said:
EXAMPLE−
Key to traffic pattern operations

1. Enter pattern in level flight, abeam the midpoint of the runway, at pattern altitude. (1,000’ AGL is recommended pattern altitude unless established otherwise. . .)

2. Maintain pattern altitude until abeam approach end of the landing runway on downwind leg.

3. Complete turn to final at least 1/4 mile from the runway.

4. Continue straight ahead until beyond departure end of runway.

5. If remaining in the traffic pattern, commence turn to crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of pattern altitude.

6. If departing the traffic pattern, continue straight out, or exit with a 45 degree turn (to the left when in a left−hand traffic pattern; to the right when in a right−hand traffic pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway, after reaching pattern altitude.
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This thread should be a sticky for those pilots who think that the AIM is the sole source of "proper phraseology." There are too many interpretations and too many variables and the AIM simply fails the test.

Bob
 
bobmrg said:
This thread should be a sticky for those pilots who think that the AIM is the sole source of "proper phraseology." There are too many interpretations and too many variables and the AIM simply fails the test.
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And as you know, the AIM itself says that the AIM is not the sole source of proper phraseology!

"Since concise phraseology may not always be adequate, use whatever words are necessary to get your message across."
​
 
bobmrg said:
This thread should be a sticky for those pilots who think that the AIM is the sole source of "proper phraseology." There are too many interpretations and too many variables and the AIM simply fails the test.

Bob
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Yup. Can't agree with that more. Reading and knowing it as a baseline of the "intent" is a good thing. Just writing the AIM off as it ain't "regulatory" and you shouldn't read and be familiar with it is a bad thing.
 
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Here is what I've learned from this discussion. If you are told, while on final but not yet over the runway, to cancel your landing clearance because there is a fast plane behind you and to enter the traffic pattern, there is little hope that the controller and you are of one mind on what you should actually do, so you should ask what he means every time.
 
iamtheari said:
Here is what I've learned from this discussion. If you are told, while on final but not yet over the runway, to cancel your landing clearance because there is a fast plane behind you and to enter the traffic pattern, there is little hope that the controller and you are of one mind on what you should actually do, so you should ask what he means every time.
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I would say in this particular case, yes. Based on the instructions given, I would want to know where the controller wants me to turn crosswind. There's no diagram in the AIM showing a traffic pattern that has a crosswind prior to the runway, so he needs to clarify if that's what he wants.

We used to have standard phraseology in GCA when we either wanted an aircraft to do a go around, or we wanted the aircraft to get the heck out of the way completely. "Tower directs, go around right side, turn right, parallel the right side of the runway, climb and maintain 1,500, acknowledge." Or, "tower directs, abandon approach to the right, turn right heading 270, climb and maintain 1,500, acknowledge." These are explicit instructions that shouldn't create confusion on either end.

In the OP's example, the controller could've taken more control of that situation and been more precise on his instructions.
 
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MAKG1 said:
When a controller says something that doesn't make sense, it is often a mistake.

Like, "make right traffic" when you're arriving from the left.
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Right traffic makes perfect sense to me. You're on a two mile final, right traffic at that point would mean entering an upwind for right hand pattern. Upwind in this case would be on the left side of the runway. I would verify that with the tower.

My expectation is that as soon as the airplane landed, I would be instructed to turn crosswind to a right hand pattern downwind.
 
luvflyin said:
Yup. Can't agree with that more. But reading and knowing it as a baseline of the "intent" is a good thing. Just writing the AIM off as it ain't "regulatory" and you shouldn't read and be familiar with it is a bad thing.
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That is something that I would never do. I have a mental picture of an administrative hearing before a non-pilot judge and hearing him/her say "Basic flight information and ATC procedures can be ignored? You have to be kidding."
IMHO every pilot should have a current copy of the AIM handy and browse through it now and then. It's amazing how much one can learn by reading (credit and apology to Yogi Berra).

Bob
 
bflynn said:
Right traffic makes perfect sense to me. You're on a two mile final, right traffic at that point would mean entering an upwind for right hand pattern. Upwind in this case would be on the left side of the runway. I would verify that with the tower.
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Don't forget to verify if they want a Right Upwind or Left Upwind.

bobmrg said:
IMHO every pilot should have a current copy of the AIM handy and browse through it now and then.
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Great idea. Too bad the weekend warriors can't take the time to read it once, much less on a recurring basis.
 
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