What would you do? Question about following towers instructions.

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G-force

Pre-takeoff checklist
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G-force
This happened a few years ago while doing a mock check ride (in a slow Cessna 150), what would you have done? Situation: 8 miles East of a Class D airport (with radar), runway 26 in use. Upon initial call up I get " make straight in, Runway 26, report 3 mile final." I turn directly towards the airport. I call 3 mile final and get "cleared to land runway 26." 2 miles out the tower call and says "we gotta change things, Challenger jet is on an instrument approach behind you, landing clearance canceled, make right traffic runway 26." How do you join the pattern now?
 
climb to pattern altitude, fly to end of runway, turn right. but youll probably get
turned before that.
 
declare an emergency.


better to ask for forgiveness, no?
 
I would respond with: Entering right upwind. Please clarify, do you want me to cross midfield?


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drjcustis said:
I would respond with: Entering right upwind. Please clarify, do you want me to cross midfield?


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That's the first I've heard of a 'right upwind.' :rolleyes:
 
Ryanb said:
That's the first I've heard of a 'right upwind.' :rolleyes:
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And that's why so few people post on this site. :double eye roll


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Two miles out and told to make right traffic to Rwy 26. How many would have turned right, to a point on the north side of the airport outside the downwind and entered the 45 for a right downwind to 26?

Perhaps it's better to query the tower?
 
I would have entered a wide right base for 26. If the controller wants something different then he will tell me.
 
They do this a lot at my airport, they have you break off final and join the downwind (right/left as instructed). In this case, you make a right 180* turn to join the right downwind (extended). And fly a normal base and final.
 
orange said:
They do this a lot at my airport, they have you break off final and join the downwind (right/left as instructed). In this case, you make a right 180* turn to join the right downwind (extended). And fly a normal base and final.
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From two mikes out? I don't think I would pull a 180 into the face of jet traffic on an instrument approach.
 
I think I'd start a right turn, and acknowledge the tower call with "Cessna 1234 turning right to 350, right traffic to follow Challenger in-bound".

Not sure I'd be doing it by the book, but I'd be getting out of the Challenger's way, letting tower know I understand he wants me north of the in-bound traffic's course; if tower had another idea, he'll let me know, and no harm done - I'm not gonna get too far, too fast, in a direction he doesn't want me, not in a 150.

Admit I could be wrong, and it might make sense to drive to mid-field or the departure end, at PA, then do a normal pattern. . .but if the Challenger goes around, I might get a turbine colonoscopy. . .
 
BillTIZ said:
How many would have turned right, to a point on the north side of the airport outside the downwind and entered the 45 for a right downwind to 26?
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I would because it's a mock checkride. In real life, I'd do something similar to @Sundancer
 
BillTIZ said:
From two mikes out? I don't think I would pull a 180 into the face of jet traffic on an instrument approach.
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Flying at FRG, this is a daily occurrence. Just power up climbing turn to swing it around back into the downwind. No need to go to upwind, or the departure end of the runway.
 
I'd say "ok, how do you want me to do it." If I got silence I'd turn out to the right and then maneuver for a right downwind entry. I would not continue straight ahead in a C150 when the reason they wanted me off of final is for a Challenger jet making a straight in.
 
Well, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thought the way I did. For the record, my first intention was to:

Ryanb said:
Fly upwind and a right hand pattern back to 26.
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Mistake Not... said:
climb to pattern altitude, fly to end of runway, turn right. but youll probably get
turned before that.
Click to expand...

When the mock DPE asked me what I was going to do, I said "overfly the runway at pattern altitude, then turn right cross to downwind. This was apparentaly not what he wanted and instead gruffly took the controls and:

BillTIZ said:
Two miles out and told to make right traffic to Rwy 26. How many would have turned right, to a point on the north side of the airport outside the downwind and entered the 45 for a right downwind to 26?
Click to expand...

He turned 90 degrees to the north, then a 90 degree left turn back upwind, then a left 135 degree turn to join the 45 on the downwind.

Perhaps it's better to query the tower?
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That would have been my next course of action, ask what exactly the tower wanted me to do.
 
drjcustis said:
I would respond with: Entering right upwind. Please clarify, do you want me to cross midfield?


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Aside from the "right upwind" issue. I like your answer. The way I would phrase it is, "going around. continuing upwind for right traffic" and let ATC correct it if they want.

I think that's a good choice. Querying ATC before you do anything leaves you in the way of the jet. Starting a right turn immediately and being wrong potentially puts you in the path of downwind traffic. Since you were cleared to land just a second earlier and the reason is traffic behind you, the path in front is the most likely to be clear.

BTW, something similar came up at my old home base, although not when the airplane was on final, The instruction was to make right downwind for runway 35 when the airplane was about 3 miles southeast of the field, heading northwest toward the airport and was anticipating a right base entry. The pilot continued northbound to make a 45 entry to right downwind. That was not what ATC wanted and they started yelling. The result was a very helpful dialog between the Tower and the flight schools on clear instructions, especially if they are unusual.
 
G-force said:
Well, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thought the way I did. For the record, my first intention was to:





When the mock DPE asked me what I was going to do, I said "overfly the runway at pattern altitude, then turn right cross to downwind. This was apparentaly not what he wanted and instead gruffly took the controls and:



He turned 90 degrees to the north, then a 90 degree left turn back upwind, then a left 135 degree turn to join the 45 on the downwind.



That would have been my next course of action, ask what exactly the tower wanted me to do.
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Why the heck would you do a left turn and a 45 degree leg, to enter the pattern when you are all ready IN the pattern, and the tower wanted you to make right traffic?
 
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My initial solo was similar... but I was an Archer and the traffic at my 6 was a Hawker.

Luckily they were more precise telling me what they wanted... they told me "step right, I'll call your crosswind." In retrospect I must have been alone in the pattern.

The third lap that morning I was on right base and got "extend your base" followed by "Left 270 to follow."

I thought my instructor was telling them to mess with me. He swears he did not.
 
Climb to pattern altitude straight ahead (as if told to "Go Around") "Call Cessna XXXX going around" overfly runway 26 at pattern altitude, turn Right Crosswind when appropriate... Don't do anything weird that would put you somewhere no one would be expecting you to be. A 180 2-miles out? If you don't know exactly where the Jet is? You could be basically turning into him... Nah... Not a good idea...
 
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Lindberg said:
What's wrong with "right upwind"? How is that different from saying "right downwind"?
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Nothing wrong with it necessarily, but it's just one of those things that may cause some confusion to other aircraft as well as the controller. "Right upwind" isn't standard phraseology. Basically the same as saying 'right final' or 'left final'. I don't see any reason to alter course after given an instruction like this, just go around and fly a right pattern.

No harm intended.
 
It would have nice if tower would have taken more control of the situation but I would fly a right traffic pattern as depicted in the AIM. That's go upwind and then turn right crosswind.

Personally if I were on local I would have given specific instructions for a go around. "Cessna 345, go around runway 26. Traffic is a challenger on a 5 mile final runway 26." Once you got proper spacing with the challenger behind you, "Cessna 345, right traffic approved."
 
When a controller is not very specific in his instructions it is usually because those specifics don't matter. If they were important, he would have given more specific instructions. There's nothing in the original post to indicate that there was any other traffic in the pattern.

As described, I might have asked his to call the crosswind just to avoid wasting time by delaying crosswind longer than necessary.
 
Velocity173 said:
It would have nice if tower would have taken more control of the situation but I would fly a right traffic pattern as depicted in the AIM. That's go upwind and then turn right crosswind.

Personally if I were on local I would have given specific instructions for a go around. "Cessna 345, go around runway 26. Traffic is a challenger on a 5 mile final runway 26." Once you got proper spacing with the challenger behind you, "Cessna 345, right traffic approved."
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Yea, I would expect that the tower would say something like, go around, we'll call your crosswind, expect right traffic. I would have called them back with 'going around' and continued on and they'd probably tell you to make your crosswind turn before you made the end, I'd probably ask if they hadn't called by midfield. I wouldn't do the zigzag thing that your mock dpe suggested.
 
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My personal observation: There has been a noticeable up-tick in bad instructions from controllers lately.
When you get near the pattern, you not only need to listen to your instructions with your whole head, you better be listening to everything being said to every other plane, with your whole head.
Then visualize in your head the outcome of those instructions.
Then, if you think there is a problem, ask for the instructions again. Still not right? Call them out on it.
 
Shepherd said:
My personal observation: There has been a noticeable up-tick in bad instructions from controllers lately.
When you get near the pattern, you not only need to listen to your instructions with your whole head, you better be listening to everything being said to every other plane, with your whole head.
Then visualize in your head the outcome of those instructions.
Then, if you think there is a problem, ask for the instructions again. Still not right? Call them out on it.
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Sounds very similar to the advice my PP CFI gave me: Listen to everything, paint a picture in your head of where everyone is, what they are doing, what they are told to do, and what they say they are going to do. And if something doesn't make sense, ask.
 
The answer depends on the culture and common practice of the control tower, if stated just as you said. I thing most of us, if using that phraseology, would expect you to turn right 180 degrees back to the downwind so as to make a new base behind the jet.

Some towers might have the practice of expecting you to do the full pattern by entering upwind and all the way around. But my guess is the former.

You will find that most towers are 95% the same as far as methods are concerned. But the other 5% depends on the customs of that particular tower. Controllers who work together and their trainees who become controllers tend to pick up each other's operating habits and over time they homogenize to the point that each tower has its own flavor of operating practices.

tex
 
I would have done exactly what you wanted to do. Go around and right traffic back to 26 following the Challenger. Of course, he'll probably be on the ground eating a doughnut before you get back to a right downwind.
 
G-force said:
He turned 90 degrees to the north, then a 90 degree left turn back upwind, then a left 135 degree turn to join the 45 on the downwind.
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That's to much maneuverings to close to the ground... What was he thinking..:dunno:
 
Ravioli said:
My initial solo was similar... but I was an Archer and the traffic at my 6 was a Hawker.

Luckily they were more precise telling me what they wanted... they told me "step right, I'll call your crosswind." In retrospect I must have been alone in the pattern.

The third lap that morning I was on right base and got "extend your base" followed by "Left 270 to follow."

I thought my instructor was telling them to mess with me. He swears he did not.
Click to expand...

FlySince9 said:
Climb to pattern altitude straight ahead (as if told to "Go Around") "Call Cessna XXXX going around" overfly runway 26 at pattern altitude, turn Right Crosswind when appropriate... Don't do anything weird that would put you somewhere no one would be expecting you to be. A 180 2-miles out? If you don't know exactly where the Jet is? You could be basically turning into him... Nah... Not a good idea...
Click to expand...

I learned enough in this thread for me and the guy who said they never learned anything at POA. Someone go change his vote.

Thanks!

Justin
 
That scenario is tough without more detail. Can't do a mid field turn if you don't know what other traffic is around. At 2 miles out, you're probably still at pattern altitude, should be able to hold it and fly the upwind like a go-around. Turning north there might put you head on into someone else's base run (you might be #3 to land and he's squeezing the downwind guy about to turn base as #2).
 
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