What steps to get my non-WAAS 430 IFR certified?

[imwithtuxedo]

I've researched this to death. There is some serious unknown regarding what steps to remove the "GPS approved for VFR use only" label?

I've search my plane records and I "think" the only thing I have to do is go fly some IFR approaches and let the avionics shop know so that they can make the appropriate log entries. Can you take a look at my 337 which is attached and let me know?

I'd like to avoid upgrading to a WAAS unit at this point as I'd like to upgrade later, not right now. I'm aware of the limitations in minimum approaches if I stay with a non-waas unit.

 

[unsafervguy]

If I remember correctly you must also have the approved flight manual supplement added to the poh or afm and note that in the 337

 

[Van Johnston]

I think it is the avionics shop that has to do the flight test, not you. I recommend you call and ask them.

 

[Ravioli]

If I'm not mistaken, all GNS-430's are certified for IFR en-route and approach.

Are the terrain and route databases up to date? If the previous driver wasn't updating them that could explain it. Also, the placard might predate the 430.
The previous advice to check with a shop makes sense.

 

[Bell206]

I've researched this to death. There is some serious unknown regarding what steps to remove the "GPS approved for VFR use only" label?

Since you've researched... if I recall, any non-waas gps must meet TSO C129 to be used IFR but requires a back up IFR system like a VOR. For waas gps under TSO C145/146 no back up system needed. Both need ability to update airport data every 28 days.

If your gps doesn't meet C129 then not possible to lose VFR placard. If meets 129 but no else has shown its IFR capabilities via an approved method then your money would be better spent on a waas enabled or IFR gps instead.

 

[imwithtuxedo]

Install was done by Avionic shop in Florida by prior owner. Looking for advice before I contact my local avionic shops so I'm informed and don't get sold a bill of goods. ie: you need a new $10k WAAS unit..... Per the regs, my 430 is a C129 gps and I have a qualified VOR but the "VFR only" placard was put in at install. Looking for tips to remove placard and be IFR GPS legal and what steps that will take in addition to the 337 already on file.

Since you've researched... if I recall, any non-waas gps must meet TSO C129 to be used IFR but requires a back up IFR system like a VOR. For waas gps under TSO C145/146 no back up system needed. Both need ability to update airport data every 28 days.

If your gps doesn't meet C129 then not possible to lose VFR placard. If meets 129 but no else has shown its IFR capabilities via an approved method then your money would be better spent on a waas enabled or IFR gps instead.

 

[Van Johnston]

The OP's question regards the installation, not the unit.

Our plane has a 337 for the original 430 install with the similar VFR only placard notation. Then 10 days later there is a second 337 saying that a flight has been completed IAW the AC, the VFR limitation is removed, and the placard has been removed.

Were you the owner in 2013 when it was installed, or did you purchase since then? Maybe the second 337 is just missing. Check the FAA CD or again, call the shop that did the install. They should have a copy.

 

[imwithtuxedo]

I was not the owner in 2013. I got the FAA CD when I purchased. There's nothing after the 2013 337 install. I'll try the shop, but I'm not optimistic...

The OP's question regards the installation, not the unit.

Our plane has a 337 for the original 430 install with the similar VFR only placard notation. Then 10 days later there is a second 337 saying that a flight has been completed IAW the AC, the VFR limitation is removed, and the placard has been removed.

Were you the owner in 2013 when it was installed, or did you purchase since then? Maybe the second 337 is just missing. Check the FAA CD or again, call the shop that did the install. They should have a copy.

 

[flyingron]

I think it is the avionics shop that has to do the flight test, not you. I recommend you call and ask them.

Nope, anybody can do the flight test. My shop had me fly it (they had no navion qualified pilots). I took along the avionics tech and just for good measure another Navion pilot in teh right seat. That allowed me and the tech to fiddle with setting up the approach (which neither of us had done before) while having a competent pilot fly the aircraft.

 

[Bell206]

Looking for tips to remove placard and be IFR GPS legal and what steps that will take in addition to the 337 already on file.

Start here: Advisory Circular 20-138D. Then talk to your avionics guy.

 

[bnt83]

I've researched this to death. There is some serious unknown regarding what steps to remove the "GPS approved for VFR use only" label?

I've search my plane records and I "think" the only thing I have to do is go fly some IFR approaches and let the avionics shop know so that they can make the appropriate log entries. Can you take a look at my 337 which is attached and let me know?

I'd like to avoid upgrading to a WAAS unit at this point as I'd like to upgrade later, not right now. I'm aware of the limitations in minimum approaches if I stay with a non-waas unit.

How was it previously installed? Garmin STC? If so it really is as simple as getting a dealer to review the STC installation manual, install/relocate/reconfigure/conform airplane to the IFR requirements and sign it off. It may require additional annunciator panel, a CDI, etc to meet primary field of view requirements. If the STC requires a flight test then that too must be done. You should get a new Airplane Flight Manual Supplement, equipment list revision, log entry and 337 as applicable.

 

[bradg33]

Warning: it's going to be a bit of a pain in the ass, and you're likely going to struggle to get a radio shop to help you. Here's why: most of the non-WAAS 430s were not installed pursuant to an STC, but via field-approval. So getting it IFR approved will likely require FAA involvement.

You need to first review the most recent version of the Garmin 430 install manual (which you'll need to dig around for, as Garmin doesn't make it available online) to ensure that the installation meets all of the requirements of the manual for IFR approval (proper indicator, proper annunciator, field of vision requirements, etc.).

If that all seems OK (and your avionics shop or A&P/IA agrees), you need to prepare the appropriate Airplane Flight Manual Supplement (AFMS). Garmin has a template on the website (http://static.garmin.com/pumac/GNS430_AircraftFlightManualSupplement.pdf), but you'll need to modify to fit your particular installation. You then need to complete a flight test as set forth in AC 20-138D and any additional testing requirements in the install manual.

Once that's all done, you need to prepare a 337, have an IA sign it and submit to the FSO for approval. It'll likely take several weeks (or months) for that to come back.

Do not be surprised if your avionics shop wants nothing to do with this process. It's probably nothing more than a paperwork exercise if the original install was done properly, but shops hate this stuff and many will simpy refuse to do it. It's not rocket science, but it's paperwork, not physical labor.

IMHO, you're better off finding a competent A&P/IA that's willing to work with you to get it done yourself.

If you PM me an email address, I'm happy to provide copies of the documents I used to get my recently installed GX50 field-approved for IFR. I didn't use a radio shop; I installed myself with IA supervision and had him sign the 337 to approve the IFR install.

 

[NordicDave]

GNS-430 is IFR certified for Piper 180's. Others have covered the requirements like on-board AFM, current data bases installed, pitot/static test, back-up nav, IA sign-off, etc. Not that hard. I've seen 430's marked VFR only because someone installed a used unit and refused to update the databases. That prevented the Av Shop from certifying as IFR capable when it left their shop.

The WAAS upgrade prices keep climbing. Price is now $4400, but most av shops discount $300-400 dollars. Garmin ships back a like-new unit with Terrain & Obstacle avoidance and ADS-B display capable for FIS-B weather and traffic. You get a MUCH more capable unit. Also complete refreshed data set (Nav, Terrain, Obstacle) that costs $380 separately.

 

[bradg33]

GNS-430 is IFR certified for Piper 180's. Others have covered the requirements like on-board AFM, current data bases installed, pitot/static test, back-up nav, IA sign-off, etc. Not that hard. I've seen 430's marked VFR only because someone installed a used unit and refused to update the databases. That prevented the Av Shop from certifying as IFR capable when it left their shop.

The WAAS upgrade prices keep climbing. Price is now $4400, but most av shops discount $300-400 dollars. Garmin ships back a like-new unit with Terrain & Obstacle avoidance and ADS-B display capable for FIS-B weather and traffic. You get a MUCH more capable unit. Also complete refreshed data set (Nav, Terrain, Obstacle) that costs $380 separately.

Databases don't have to be current for the unit to be IFR legal; they only have to be current to shoot approaches.

 

[NordicDave]

Databases don't have to be current for the unit to be IFR legal; they only have to be current to shoot approaches.

Correct, if the pilot verifies the outdated data is still accurate. However the Av shops I worked with would not release an aircraft GPS system as IFR ready with stale Nav data. The OP was asking how to get his GPS approved for IFR.

AIM Section 1-1-17 has everything the OP is looking for, and answers all these questions.

 

[JohnAJohnson]

The 430W is, if the STC was followed, but the 430 is VFR till the shop blesses it IFR.

If I'm not mistaken, all GNS-430's are certified for IFR en-route and approach.

Are the terrain and route databases up to date? If the previous driver wasn't updating them that could explain it. Also, the placard might predate the 430.
The previous advice to check with a shop makes sense.

 

[JohnAJohnson]

GNS-430 is IFR certified for Piper 180's. Others have covered the requirements like on-board AFM, current data bases installed, pitot/static test, back-up nav, IA sign-off, etc. Not that hard. I've seen 430's marked VFR only because someone installed a used unit and refused to update the databases. That prevented the Av Shop from certifying as IFR capable when it left their shop.

The WAAS upgrade prices keep climbing. Price is now $4400, but most av shops discount $300-400 dollars. Garmin ships back a like-new unit with Terrain & Obstacle avoidance and ADS-B display capable for FIS-B weather and traffic. You get a MUCH more capable unit. Also complete refreshed data set (Nav, Terrain, Obstacle) that costs $380 separately.

It was cheaper for me to sell my 430 and buy a 430W. The delta was about $2000 two years ago.

 

[NordicDave]

It was cheaper for me to sell my 430 and buy a 430W. The delta was about $2000 two years ago.

Good move! And good idea.

I upgraded mine 2 years ago before the big price increase. $2900 after my shops discount. Glad to get the factory warranty and upgraded capability. I saved $800 not having to buy a GTX-345 with GPS, so final price was really $2100 for the upgrade. Unit did come back indistinguishable from new; all new plastic, buttons, switches, etc.

The 430W is a darn good unit. Adding FlightStream 210 really adds to the ease of use capability. Very cool to one click upload ForeFlight flight plans to the 430W and back.

 

[bradg33]

Correct, if the pilot verifies the outdated data is still accurate. However the Av shops I worked with would not release an aircraft GPS system as IFR ready with stale Nav data. The OP was asking how to get his GPS approved for IFR.

AIM Section 1-1-17 has everything the OP is looking for, and answers all these questions.

I guess shops are just making up their own rules now.

Also, the AIM does not address the procedures for getting a GPS IFR-approved.

 

[NordicDave]

Its not that shops arenmaking up their own rules, I think it has more to do with liability risk in their part driving the shops decisions. Why not spend $130 for a one time nav database update? Why should they take that risk because a pilot is too cheap? How many of us have seen old 430's with data 3-5-7 years out of date?

Right, the AIM does not state how to make an VFR GPS into an IFR GPS, but the regs do state the requirements for an IFR GPS. Avoidance of spending $130 puts the pilot on a slippery slope of carveouts and exceptions to get it done, that are not necessary.

This forum site too frequently gets into contests of who knows the edge of the regs better than the other guy.

 

[Ravioli]

The 430W is, if the STC was followed, but the 430 is VFR till the shop blesses it IFR.

Please explain your assertion.

My personal experience is 2 aircraft with 430's (non-waas) that were IFR regularly. (C177RG and PA32-300). They were each upgraded to WAAS, but that didn't make them IFR, it only lowered the minimums for many of the GPS approaches.

 

[JohnAJohnson]

Wish I could Rob. I'm going from memory since I no longer have that plane or the documents. Here's what I remember. My 430 was installed by an avionics shop and the suppliment and 337 said VFR only. It went back to the shop a month or two later, with a new 337 and POH supplement proclaiming IFR. Anyway, when I (and my A&P) installed my 430W, we called the avionics shop to schedule it for a checkout and they said not needed - If the 430W was installed according to the STC, it was blessed "ready to go" for its full capabilities.

 

[bradg33]

Its not that shops arenmaking up their own rules, I think it has more to do with liability risk in their part driving the shops decisions. Why not spend $130 for a one time nav database update? Why should they take that risk because a pilot is too cheap? How many of us have seen old 430's with data 3-5-7 years out of date?

Right, the AIM does not state how to make an VFR GPS into an IFR GPS, but the regs do state the requirements for an IFR GPS. Avoidance of spending $130 puts the pilot on a slippery slope of carveouts and exceptions to get it done, that are not necessary.

This forum site too frequently gets into contests of who knows the edge of the regs better than the other guy.

The AIM does not contain controlling requirements for database currency, the individual AFMS for the specific IFR GPS does. For the Garmin 430s, every AFMS I've seen only requires the database to be current for GPS approaches. The shops absolutely are making up their own rules if they won't return an airplane to service unless the pilot updates the GPS database. There is no "slippery slope," there is only the clear database requirements set forth in the applicable AFMS.

 

[NordicDave]

AIM clearly states the data must be current for IFR, or the pilot must ensure the expired data is accurate according to a current data source... like a paper chart. Read part 2 in section 1-1-17.

 

[bradg33]

AIM clearly states the data must be current for IFR, or the pilot must ensure the expired data is accurate according to a current data source... like a paper chart. Read part 2 in section 1-1-17.

As I said previously, the AIM is not controlling; the Airplane Flight Manual Supplement for the particular installation is. If you don't understand that aspect, I can't help you.

 

[NordicDave]

As I said previously, the AIM is not controlling; the Airplane Flight Manual Supplement for the particular installation is. If you don't understand that aspect, I can't help you.

As said several posts earlier.... It's the AFM and the Regs satisfied. You need both. You have to separate the certification that the device is permissible to fly IFR and the fact it's installed correctly and configured correctly to fly IFR.

 

[Steve81c]

I've researched this to death. There is some serious unknown regarding what steps to remove the "GPS approved for VFR use only" label?

I've search my plane records and I "think" the only thing I have to do is go fly some IFR approaches and let the avionics shop know so that they can make the appropriate log entries. Can you take a look at my 337 which is attached and let me know?

I'd like to avoid upgrading to a WAAS unit at this point as I'd like to upgrade later, not right now. I'm aware of the limitations in minimum approaches if I stay with a non-waas unit.

So what did you end up doing on this? Were you able to get it IFR for approaches? I looked at the 337 you attached and did not see anything in the block where the FAA would have put the stamp for Field Approval".