What started out as a nice calm flight....

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VictorValencia

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VictorValencia
Hi Everyone,

I want to share an experience I had this morning. I know what I
did wrong but hopefully some of the newer students might get some
value out of my experience.

First off I am a low-time student pilot. This morning was my 4th solo
flight. I soloed at around 30 hours in a C162. Many moons ago
I accumulated 200 hours in gliders and have my commercial glider
certificate. I have maybe 36 hours in SEL so far.

I live in the SF bay area and train out of Palo Alto (KPAO). The conditions
this morning were winds dead-calm (first hint), temp 70 deg F and clear
skies. I took off around 7:30am and headed for the coast. At the coast I
practiced steep turns and approach stalls. Everything went well and I felt
great. I shot 2 approaches at San Carlos (KSQL) which went perfect for the
most part. I then requested departure to KPAO and worked my way into the
KPAO pattern exactly at TPA. On final, I was right on glideslope and
my _normal_ approach speed of 60 kts (second hint). Nailed everything
down to touchdown. Then I hit a bump in the runway and over-corrected,
bounced, and then began the downward spiral of Pilot Induced Oscillation
(PIO). Each bounce got worse and worse. Holy crap I am in trouble.
I finally realize it's a disaster and perform a go-around. Full power,
carb heat, wait for positive climb, reduce flaps etc. Back up at TPA I gather
myself thinking it was just a fluke.

2nd approach...nailed everything during the approach. During flare I
bounced, and then began the downward spiral of PIO..... There's a pattern
here. I go around again. Now I am truly freaking out. I was not sure I was
going to be able to land the C162. During the PIO I was convinced I was
going to crash. It was a mighty spectacle. I was imagining the controllers
in the tower placing money on the console betting whether or not I would
make it.

I gather myself. 3rd approach. Nailed it.

Controller: "Do you want to continue with closed traffic or will you be
terminating?"
Me: "I am ABSOLUTELY terminating, 76C"
Controller: "<chuckle> Taxi back via parallel kilo and monitor ground. Good
day."

It is hard to describe the fear I felt and how bad the PIO was. I am
generally pretty gentle on the stick but the freak-out factor took over
and the over-correction made it worse.

Damage Summary:
1) Pride
2) Small metal tail skid slightly bent
3) Underwear

Lessons Learned:

1) KPAO is windy.....almost always. Probably 95% of my approaches
involve a headwind. 60 kt approach is fine with 10 kt headwind
but NOT OK for calm conditions. The short field approach speed is
50 knots but have not done any yet.

2) Never EVER try to save a PIO situation. I knew that but it just did not
register since it happened so fast.

3) If you bung a landing that badly, take some time to analyze what
happened before trying again. I figured that I was not being
patient enough during the final flare. Probably true but more significant
factors were at work. It would have been better to exit the pattern
and re-group.

4) Just me in the aircraft with only 1/4 tank of fuel and extra airspeed
== light weight == longer float.

5) Never force the airplane onto the ground when it's not done flying.

6) Don't ever get complacent on a "great" day.

7) I have a lot to learn.

I'm not going to fly solo again until I spend time with my instructor. We're
going to meet early one morning to fly no-wind approaches.

I am incredibly lucky to have not balled the aircraft into a heap of metal
on the side of the runway. I am humbled and a bit scared but I want
to continue and learn from this.

Victor
 
Glad you shared. And glad you're down safe.

Please ask your CFI to show you the 'full stall' landing configuration. Alternately, get some pattern stick time in a TW airplane. It will all make sense again.
 
Great story thanks for sharing. Sounds like your assessment and takeaways are right on -- you're a better pilot now for it I would venture to guess. I had a similar thing happen on my 3rd or 4th solo where I bounced and then weathervaned so bad that I probably would have collapsed the gear if I didn't do the go around. Made me wish we didn't have cloth seats in the 172:redface:. But like you said, taught me that complacency is not a pilot's friend, and I learned from that. Hope you get back in the saddle soon.
 
Yeah, I'm not surprised. The clues are:

VictorValencia said:
I soloed at around 30 hours in a C162. Many moons ago
I accumulated 200 hours in gliders. ... Nailed everything
down to touchdown. Then I hit a bump in the runway and over-corrected,
bounced, and then began the downward spiral of Pilot Induced Oscillation
(PIO). Each bounce got worse and worse. ... There's a pattern
here.
Click to expand...
You've got 200 hours using a different landing technique. That's why it took 30 hours to solo. You reverted to what you know. "Nailing" the plane on the runway isn't the way you should do it. You went back to an inappropriate pattern.

VictorValencia said:
Lessons Learned:

5) Never force the airplane onto the ground when it's not done flying.
Click to expand...
:yeahthat:


dtuuri
 
Relax, this is a learning experience that you will not forget. The same thing happened to me at about 110 hours, coming home from a Thanksgiving trip after dark, on a 3000' runway with trees at the end.

You did what I did, bounced a couple of times, went around and tried again. All I could think [after successfully missing the trees] was 'fly the plane, make a normal landing, figure it out later, fly the plane, make a normal landing, figure it out later . . . '

I figured out that I was tired and glad to be home, so I relaxed in the flare. It's a mistake I have not made again. You figured out your mistake, much earlier than I did. Now get some practice, learn to land the plane "normally," and think about the wind factor. Not having any 162 time, I have to ask: do you increase speed for wind? I only do so for gusty winds, and only by one half of the gust amount. For example, if 10G17, I'll increase speed by 4, because it's too hard to spot 3½ on the ASI.

Good luck, and keep up the good work!
 
"Pilot Induced Oscillations." The above video is a classic occurrence, except he recovered somehow without going around. Credit THAT to luck!
 
The POH indicates 55-60 kts for a "normal" approach. I have
always had at lest 10 kts of headwind so I have been using the
higher end of that range. 60 kts has always felt comfortable.
With a lighter plane and no wind 55 kts should have been the
upper end. The short field approach speed is 50 kts. Stall
speed in the landing configuration is 37 kts so there is plenty
of wiggle room. I've never landed using an approach speed
of less than 60 due to the windy conditions most days. It would
have helped for me to evaluate the conditions prior to taking
off and note things that I should do differently in those conditions.

The video is a great example of PIO. It sure felt worse than
what was shown though :)

What's scary about it is that without the proper control inputs
it gets worse on every cycle.
 
I had a PIO on one of my early unsupervised solo flights as well. On the third bounce I firewalled it to go around, then failed to retract my flaps in a timely manner because I was flustered.

It is scary when it happens, so I know what you're feeling. Later on in my training I learned to absolutely nail my ideal approach speed and make my flare a smooth transition instead of the yank-back maneuver that the word "flare" suggests.

My instructor was great but liked to make an off-hand comment that a "little extra speed" on approach couldn't hurt. Except that it does hurt when you're a student. A "little extra speed" is a nebulous amount, and it turns into 5 or 10 extra knots. And then when you factor in that you're probably well under gross weight, you're suddenly way too fast and the plane isn't anywhere near ready to stop flying when you're ready to be touching down.

Work with your instructor, find your ideal final approach speed, and nail that puppy. Make your flare a smooth transition, and then hooooooold it off until the plane sets down with a satisfying chirp. If the plane is done flying when it touches down, there's no risk of a scary PIO.
 
I don't understand the connection between steady, non-gusting wind and airspeed. Fly final at 1.3 Vso, plus half the gust factor. No gusts, don't add any speed.
 
...I did this (2 bounces...) landing at night at Lubbock International. Scared the beejezus out of me...but my training kicked in. At the apex of the 2nd bounce I mashed the throttle and went around. No harm done.

I still owe my CFI a steak dinner for that one.

We are always learning here. Best thing you can do in this situation is identify it immediately and go around...don't try to salvage something like this.
 
Remember ---> Pretend there is a ratchet on that yoke/stick, once you start easing it back you can't put it forward again.

If she balloons, just hold the stick where it is and wait for her to loose some excess engegy (runway length permitting) then continue holding her off till she touches down.

Nothing to do with hours, gliders, tailwheel vs trike or airspeed, its just technique :wink2:
 
Victor. Good write up, well written and a good lesson. I don't think it was the approach air speed, I think is was as others said the flare and not letting the speed bleed off before planting it.

Also you said at "KSQL" that you shot two approaches, I assume you mean you did two landings and not actual published approaches. Any good lesson and kudos to you for recognizing and figuring out how correct the problem.
 
In that video that was posted, was that a planned situation where the pilot tried to do that? It seems like he did not even flare at all?

As far as a bounced landing, I did this once very early on right after I got my PPL. I bounced twice but I basically just did what someone up above suggested which was to hold the airplane off the ground after the second bounce and just held it there till it touched down softly. Certainly it scared the crap out of me and I immediately went back for some landing instruction on my next flight. It is crazy how easy it is for things to go wrong during a landing attempt. I was scared for sure!
 
James331 said:
Remember ---> Pretend there is a ratchet on that yoke/stick, once you start easing it back you can't put it forward again.

If she balloons, just hold the stick where it is and wait for her to loose some excess engegy (runway length permitting) then continue holding her off till she touches down.

Nothing to do with hours, gliders, tailwheel vs trike or airspeed, its just technique :wink2:
Click to expand...


What he said! :thumbsup:
 
James331 said:
Remember ---> Pretend there is a ratchet on that yoke/stick, once you start easing it back you can't put it forward again.

If she balloons, just hold the stick where it is and wait for her to loose some excess engegy (runway length permitting) then continue holding her off till she touches down.

Nothing to do with hours, gliders, tailwheel vs trike or airspeed, its just technique :wink2:
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

The tendency is to react. As James said, don't.
 
ateamer said:
I don't understand the connection between steady, non-gusting wind and airspeed. Fly final at 1.3 Vso, plus half the gust factor. No gusts, don't add any speed.
Click to expand...

Why has no one brought this up yet besides you. I know it is sometimes hard for a new pilot to grasp, but AIRSPEED doesn't care one bit about wind. 60kts indicated in 0 wind is exactly the same as 60kts indicated in 30kts wind. The airplane is moving relative to the airmass not the ground. GROUNDSPEED will be different with wind, so rollout will be shorter. If you try to land at a slower indicated airspeed just because there is no wind, you are doing it wrong. Use 1.3 Vso or whatever the POH says every time. The only reason to increase speed is during gusts or heavy crosswind when using less flaps etc.
 
Thanks for sharing! Great you are able to put some humor in it now too, though I'm sure it wasn't very amusing at the time! :)
 
James331 said:
Remember ---> Pretend there is a ratchet on that yoke/stick, once you start easing it back you can't put it forward again.

If she balloons, just hold the stick where it is and wait for her to loose some excess engegy (runway length permitting) then continue holding her off till she touches down.
Click to expand...

This!
I was having a crappy day and bounced, but kept to that principle of never bringing the yoke forward. The second touchdown was FIRM, but it didn't oscillate :goofy:
 
When you're 5 feet above the runway and out of ideas, the throttle is your best friend in the world. Always be ready to go around.

Every soloed student scares him/herself at least once. Don't beat yourself up over it.
 
Direct C51 said:
Why has no one brought this up yet besides you. I know it is sometimes hard for a new pilot to grasp, but AIRSPEED doesn't care one bit about wind. 60kts indicated in 0 wind is exactly the same as 60kts indicated in 30kts wind. The airplane is moving relative to the airmass not the ground. GROUNDSPEED will be different with wind, so rollout will be shorter. If you try to land at a slower indicated airspeed just because there is no wind, you are doing it wrong. Use 1.3 Vso or whatever the POH says every time. The only reason to increase speed is during gusts or heavy crosswind when using less flaps etc.
Click to expand...

That is why I said its not the air speed its likely the flare
 
Victor -- you did great analyzing the PIO and stopping it before planting the prop in the runway. Not everyone does that so well. My favorite 172 is in the shop 'cause someone blew that.

However, I don't think you've analyzed the root cause correctly.

PAO isn't that windy, but it does get some oh-so-fun thermals on short final. Generally NOT at 7:30 AM, though. It's very dry and very calm the past few days, and not very warm in the morning.

A 60 KIAS approach speed works ALL the time, except for gusty winds. This morning, you didn't have any. It works even at Lake Tahoe. The GROUND speed may appear different with or without a headwind, or at a different density altitude. But the airplane responds to calibrated (well, almost indicated) airspeed. You DO NOT fly a faster or slower approach speed based on winds, except for gust compensation (don't overdo that).

What I think you really did was force the airplane down, and land on the nose gear. That's a no-no. Do not make the airplane land before it's ready. Your approach speed is high, but not crazy-high. As a student, you want to hear the stall horn go off right before touchdown.

PAO is a fairly short runway -- but I assume you've seen those big King Airs land on it. It's doable -- easily -- but you have to fight the urge to get it down. If you're going to land uncomfortably long, go around. Maybe practice somewhere with a longer runway like Oakland (I'm completely serious -- just don't use 30) or maybe Livermore or Hayward (but ask for the longer of the two runways). If it's gonna float, let it float.

I typically use short field approach speeds plus half the gust factor all the time at PAO. Even slower if I'm really light. But, try that with an instructor. Like, tomorrow. You should touch down much slower than the approach speed, just above stall. The yoke will be FAR back and the nose in the air before touching pavement.

The other thing you have to resist is the temptation to point the nose at the runway. If you're high -- which is likely if you've gotten used to the 15 knot headwinds we've had until a few days ago -- pushing the nose down will make you fast. The correct thing to do is pull the power if you have any. If you don't, SLOW down (pitch UP) to the short field approach speed (no slower), add flap, or slip.

Something else I suggest you try is to learn to land without the VASI. PAO tower may turn it off if you ask (they do have the control), or you can use the short runway at Livermore. Chasing the VASI from above is not necessary. You shouldn't be below it, but you can almost certainly land successfully from above, even if hundreds of feet too high on base-to-final.
 
Last edited:
I was taught, and I teach, that once the stick/yoke comes back for the flare, it doesn't go forward. If you balloon, use a touch of power to arrest the descent, but don't go forward on the stick. You can't get into a PIO of you don't push the stick forward.
 
You walked away,and you can still use the plane. Some days it just not your day.
 
LDJones said:
I was taught, and I teach, that once the stick/yoke comes back for the flare, it doesn't go forward. If you balloon, use a touch of power to arrest the descent, but don't go forward on the stick. You can't get into a PIO of you don't push the stick forward.
Click to expand...
:yeahthat:
The stabilator's extra authority means the Cardinal is especially prone to ballooning unless the pilot has a very light touch. I can't begin to count the number of times I've bounced due to some weirdness of the wind (plus inept technique due to pilot rustiness ;)) and easily salvaged the landing by adding just a smidge of power (ONLY a smidge, no more) and holding the pitch attitude with gentle back pressure on the yoke.

But hitting nose-first usually requires a go-around, or else an unfortunate outcome. :(
 
Skip Miller said:
Here is another Youtube video of a PIO... this one with a less successful ending. Glad yours was better!

-Skip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmHYWjEmkY
Click to expand...

I've seen that video several times. There was a lot more to it than a simple PIO. That airplane was moving waaay too fast to land, then the pilot tried to force it on. Again and again and again. He finally succeeded. ;-)
 
I know how you feel. I soloed for the first time last weekend, and my solo landings were almost perfect. I come back two days later for my next flight so the instructor can review my stalls, steep turn, etc and show me the practice area, so next time I can go up alone. We landed at a new to me airport in almost a 15 knots direct crosswind in a PA28. The landing was a little shakey, but he felt it was due to the high crosswind. The takeoff went well, although it was so windy the plane weatehrvained about 20 degrees into the wind the second the mains left the ground. That was an odd feeling. We go home, and were landing into strong winds, but more or less a direct headwind. I forced the plane down after a balloon, and landed flat and hard. Not contect to land on that, I went around one more time. This time I over compensated, flairing a little early and aggressively, and ballooned worse then the previous landing. Just not my day.

I go from a successful 1st solo to a couple of my worse landings in weeks. So instead of going up alone next time, we are going to flip my lessons, and do perfomance takeoff and landings, which he feels will smooth out my flair.
 
There has been lots of fantastic advice.

One my second go-around I figured that I was not being patient enough
before touching down. I think this is what allowed me to make successful
landing the 3rd time around.

One thing I did not mention is that the Rwy at KPAO has a
fun bump in the middle of it. I typically touch down before it
but my ground speed is slow enough that it does not "launch" me back into
the air. I think that the additional ground/air speeds caused me to bounce
back into the air a bit more than usual and I over-corrected. At some point
I hit the tail since the skid was bent a bit. I wonder if I got thrown
up a bit by the bump and ended up flaring too high which meant a very
high pitch-up attitude. The tail hitting the ground first would force
the nose down causing the first oscillation.

I wish I had a video of it. It was one of the few days that I did not
have my go-pro running.

Yes, the wind is not insane at KPAO. I most always fly in the late afternoon
and my instructor has suggested that I use the higher end of the landing
airspeed of 55-60 so that I what I have been using.

James331 I like the concept of never pushing the stick forward. I think
that my inexperience caused me to push forward since the pitch-up
attitude was so big that it freaked me out a bit. It was amazing how
quickly it went from a little bounce to bouncing up and down at a 30 deg
angle.

MAKG thanks for your thorough analysis. Thinking back I realize that
my touchdowns are not "greasers" most of the time. I tend to "plop"
down from a couple of feet. I am probably not holding off long enough.
I believe the harder you set down the more likely you are to bounce
back into the air.

Thanks so much to everyone for chiming in and providing advice and
encouragement. I am glad to be a part of this community!

Victor
 
Glad you went around and dealt with it. Everyone will bounce eventually, and then chase it.

Make sure you're not looking two feet off the front of the cowl, but at the far end of the runway.
 
I really think you're landing on the nosegear.

That causes bouncing when you're well above stall by suddenly increasing angle of attack. Ask your instructor. I suggest going up for a few laps of dual even if the next step is unsupervised solo.

I've never hit that bump hard enough to launch in any aircraft I've flown.
 
You weren't carrying any extra airspeed due to the lack of a headwind. Remove that idea from your head!
The only reason you have been told to carry a little extra airspeed on windy days is due to windshear. If that headwind suddenly drops, you will see the airspeed bleed off.
Having a reduced approach speed to begin with is obviously going to leave you with very little room for error.

The tail strike would more likely have come in the landing phase as you have pulled the nose back up to avoid going nose first into the ground rather than while going over the bump.

Please do not get caught up in the contest of trying to put an aircraft down as gently as possible. You don't get any extra medals for this and it causes more problems and bad habits than what its worth.
I've seen many pilots look for that greaser landing and then have to stand on the brakes and use full reverse just to get the plane to stop in time by the end of the runway! They have floated a good 50% of the runway just trying to get it down gently!
The passengers bums might be all happy from gentle touchdown but their foreheads aren't from crashing into the seat in front of them!!!!
I've also seen quite a few tailstrikes in things like C206s and C207s as pilots keep pulling back more and more to soften the landing.

If you are finding your landings are "Ploping" onto the runway. You will find your biggest problem is the height at which you are rounding out (flaring) at. In an aircraft like a C172, you should have no problems at being able to arrest the sink and flare at around 1ft. As the speed bleeds off, you will find the plane will settle onto the runway nicely.
Big bounces do not occur from having too much speed on landing. The bounces come from having a high vertical speed when the wheels touch.
Sprung steel suspension is just going to turn into a big spring and send you skyward again.

Focus on landing the aircraft on a point. Each landing, pick a point where you want the aircraft to touch down.
Say, the 4th center line marker or the 1000ft markers. When aiming for this you will then start to realise what effect wind and weight has on the landing characteristics of the plane.
Once you learn this, you will then be able to get the hang of when and where you should be holding off that little bit extra for landing.
Accuracy first. Greasers second.
 
Thanks again for everyone's great advice.

My takeaways from the thread:

1) Nail the _correct_ airspeed on approach (which has nothing to do
with headwind).

2) Let 'er float until she'd done flying but not so
much that it takes up half the runway trying to
"grease" it.

3) The only time you increase approach airspeed is when you
need to deal with potential wind-shear.

4) Once the flare is started I should never need to push the stick forward.

Victor
 
I was taught ( and still practice ) the "never push the stick forward but relax the pressure" , just let it float....try to keep it flying.

I haven't had to many issues with bouncing ( yet ) but sounds like you handled it well, and the fact your asking advise speaks volumes that you will be a fine safe pilot.

its only six months since I got my ticket but i'm sure I've learned more since passing than before....

My issue when practicing solo was with touch and goes...must have done 400 of them during training....no problem after passing I have had at least 4 incident's where I've added power after retracting the flaps and nearly veered of the runway...don't ask me why, power too quick ?, rudder not quick enough ? But I did what you did...asked my instructors, asked fellow pilots, took in the advise and learned and corrected the problem.
Two of the things I learned ? I now know why my school didn't allow solo students to do T&G, and understanding why my main instructor told me early on T&G are a really silly thing to do and once you've passed you wont have to do them again.

We have all made mistakes and we will all make more......as long as you're learning from them, that's the most important thing.
 
I was taught this technique, and use it. Can anyone explain it? You're close to Vso, then you balloon. Now you're higher, still close to Vso, and the aircraft is still decelerating. It seems like you would want to reduce pitch attitude to trade that altitude for airspeed, but this is not what is done. Why?

James331 said:
Remember ---> Pretend there is a ratchet on that yoke/stick, once you start easing it back you can't put it forward again.

If she balloons, just hold the stick where it is and wait for her to loose some excess engegy (runway length permitting) then continue holding her off till she touches down.

Nothing to do with hours, gliders, tailwheel vs trike or airspeed, its just technique :wink2:
Click to expand...
 
GeorgeC said:
I was taught this technique, and use it. Can anyone explain it? You're close to Vso, then you balloon. Now you're higher, still close to Vso, and the aircraft is still decelerating. It seems like you would want to reduce pitch attitude to trade that altitude for airspeed, but this is not what is done. Why?
Click to expand...

Because your best efforts will always be too late, due to processing time to realize what's happening plus reaction time to initiate a change. By then, the plane has already corrected and started down on its own, then you add more down and start the oscillation.

The way to fix a balloon is to add a touch of power to re-stabilize yourself near the top of the balloon, then flare all over again.
 
VictorValencia said:
Thanks again for everyone's great advice.

My takeaways from the thread:

1) Nail the _correct_ airspeed on approach (which has nothing to do
with headwind).

2) Let 'er float until she'd done flying but not so
much that it takes up half the runway trying to
"grease" it.

3) The only time you increase approach airspeed is when you
need to deal with potential wind-shear.

4) Once the flare is started I should never need to push the stick forward.

Victor
Click to expand...


Number 4 is a generality. If you took a 20 knot his straight on the nose, you'd go back up. To be able to hold the stick where it is, you'd need a big blast of power to arrest the resulting thud about to take place... Or... Maybe better... Don't try to "save" it. The big blast of power becomes the mental cue for a go-around.
 
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