What should I ask when calling about a used aircraft?

cowman

cowman

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Usually before I'd even think about calling, I'd know from the ad what the engine times are, what's in the panel, what other upgrades it has, and have some pictures to get a general idea of the overall condition. I'd also have already run the AOPA aircraft valuation tool to get an idea of what kind of offer I might want to make and searched around for any damage history.

What other things should I be asking? Here's what I've come up with... this is often partly answered in ads but not always.

How long have you(or who you're selling it for) owned it?
How long ago(in years) was the last overhaul?
Has it been hangared all of the time?
Has it been flown recently and how frequently?
Was this a rental/club plane or private owner or ____ ?
Are all the ADs up to date?
Has it been weighed/what is the actual empty weight?
Are the maintenance logs complete?


Looking at Archer IIs, anything else I should be asking? Soon as I get one through my own screening process, I'll probably hop on here and ask if there's a mechanic who knows Archers in the area to do a pre-buy. Is it normal to make an offer before doing the pre-buy on the condition of no problems being found?

I wish I could just drive over and look at some of these but most are across the country which will mean an airline trip and likely time off work so I want to be pretty sure of what I'm looking at before even going to see it.
 
All those are reasonable questions (I'm not going to get bent out of a recent weighing. In fact my plane was 50 YEARS OLD before it was weighed. Tons of changes, several complete panel upgrades, etc.... STCs added/removed) and the thing was within a couple of pounds of what the derived W&B papers when I did.

An Archer is unlikely to be that big of an issue. THere aren't a ton of ADs (you can talk to a local mechanic or find a type society for this information) to inquire if there are any specificly onerous ones.

Most owners I've found will talk your ear off about their plane with little prompting. You can ask them to also email / mail pictures if you are interested. I have photos of every Navion that was on the market in when I bought mine.
 
Yeah the weighing is probably not a deal maker or breaker. I've just been doing hypothetical W&B calculations a lot just to see if different scenarios I have in mind are doable... so it's of interest while I'm playing fantasy aerial road-trip games.
 
How much did you spend on repairs during the last three (five?) annuals.

This will give you a good idea of how much you're going to spend on your first three, or five, annuals.
 
What should I ask when calling about a used aircraft?

Ask for someone to give you a whole bunch of money....interest free...
 
Do you have the analyses from the last bunch of oil changes?
 
timwinters said:
How much did you spend on repairs during the last three (five?) annuals.

This will give you a good idea of how much you're going to spend on your first three, or five, annuals.
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Or if its a really low number it could tell you they skimp on mx.
 
DavidWhite said:
Or if its a really low number it could tell you they skimp on mx.
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Not always true, as in his statement "could". I only pay parts for my annual. I do the tear down, the IA inspects it, I order parts and install, he reinspects it then I button it up and he re inspects it and signs off logs. AD's are checked before his first inspection. I work part time for him and this is part of the deal. If the annuals are cheap find out why, sometimes there is a good reason.

I have not seen anyone comment about asking about damage history.
 
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I actually found one and talked a little to the person selling it- who was not the owner unfortunately. Has a beautiful panel, nice(from pics) redone interior.... but the engine is close to TBO. I had a friend of a friend look at it for me, they took pics and said it looks like it had sat outside in the sun(AZ) which I couldn't tell from any pics. I also saw a badly cracked plastic tail cover that makes me go hmmmm...

I may yet ask some better questions and shoot them a low offer... asking price is pretty fair for the ET but the paint report I got and that crack make me hesitate.
 
What kinda and and what do you mean by "cracked tail cover"?
 
Oh nvm I remembered you were looking at Archers. Still not sure what you mean by tail cover though.
 
-Damage history?

-When was the last overhaul done (remember it is calendar years and/or tach hours when considering condition).

-If you know that you will be buying an Archer II then you should know what the airframe and engine ADs are and what the recurrent ADs are that may be coming up again. You can research that on the FAA site.
 
Also don't sign anything until you get a real pre-buy done by a real mechanic.
 
timwinters said:
How much did you spend on repairs during the last three (five?) annuals.

This will give you a good idea of how much you're going to spend on your first three, or five, annuals.
Click to expand...
I prefer "can you email me scans of the last six pages of all the log books".

That gives you a nice picture of maintenance and hours flown. If six pages goes back 20 years, run away. :eek:

cowman said:
I also saw a badly cracked plastic tail cover that makes me go hmmmm...

I may yet ask some better questions and shoot them a low offer... asking price is pretty fair for the ET but the paint report I got and that crack make me hesitate.
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If cracked plastic makes you hesitate, ownership might not be for you. :wink2:
 
DavidWhite said:
What kinda and and what do you mean by "cracked tail cover"?
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I'm probably using the wrong verbiage. It's the part of the tail under the stabilator in the very back... Plastic part. I guess tail cone is the right name....

This part...
http://www.globefiberglass.com/images/CHEROKEE/GF66822.htm

Guess its not expensive but I'm thinking why is it cracked and why not fixed? It's got cracks running all the way across it. I don't have the pics where I can post but I think you get the idea.
 
cowman said:
Is it normal to make an offer before doing the pre-buy on the condition of no problems being found?
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I have been involved in 4 aircraft sales as a buyer. Two with professional brokers involved and two individual sales (no broker). Every single one was a bit different - even the two brokers didn't do things the same, so while you will hear people say 'this is the way it is done...', I am not really sure there really is a 'normal' way. It really depends on what the individual parties are comfortable with.

My preferred method (once I have enough info that I feel the airplane is worth spending the money for the inspection) is to do the pre-buy inspection first, then use that information to negotiate the final selling price. That may be to discount the asking price and take the airplane as-is (I pay my mechanic to fix the discrepancies) or we agree to a purchase price with the seller fixing discrepancies. I say that is my preferred method, because it has worked best for me in the past.

Some sellers and particularly brokers (but not all) will want to have an agreed price first and a purchase agreement signed with deposit paid/wired to escrow before your mechanic turns a single wrench on the pre-buy. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with that (some people even feel that is the safest way to go for all parties), but I have personally had negative experiences with a less than honest broker going that route. If you go that route, you tend to be a little more restricted in re-negotiating after the pre-buy and the final deal depends more on getting the seller to agree to fix discrepancies to the buyers satisfaction.

Whichever route you choose, I strongly recommend paying the money for a full annual inspection as your pre-buy done by an independent A&P IA not associated with the seller.
 
Damage history, airframe corrosion, hail damage, is all equipment operational, and will the seller be responsible for items of airworthy nature found at the pre-purchase. Get any claims written on the contract.
 
Don't worry about plastic that's cracked. I have repaired many plastic parts for a shop here. They buy the part, I get the paint color matched with PPG Del Fleet paint. If its small parts I get 50 bucks for the paint per Pt. I charge 50 bucks to prime, wet sand to 400 and paint in a real booth. Multiple parts at the same time I work with the price. As you can see its not a big deal.
 
Start with the four basic questions:
1. Will the engine start?
2. Does it have a current condition inspection?
3. Is it Ready to Fly?
4. Is the ownership paperwork in order?

I've been surprised at how many used planes can't get past the first question.

[Edited to insert "ownership" in #4]
 
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tinerj said:
4. Is the paperwork in order?
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I have found you need to be a little more specific than simply asking if the paperwork is in order.

I have seen an unfortunate number of airplanes advertised as having all logs with entire books missing.....or 'all logs' meaning they have the current one. :mad2:

Personally, I am a big fan of brokers and sellers who have put all of their logs on PDF and you can review the logs before making any committment.

You can tell alot about an airplane by the quality of its record keeping.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I have found you need to be a little more specific than simply asking if the paperwork is in order.

I have seen an unfortunate number of airplanes advertised as having all logs with entire books missing.....or 'all logs' meaning they have the current one. :mad2:

Personally, I am a big fan of brokers and sellers who have put all of their logs on PDF and you can review the logs before making any committment.

You can tell alot about an airplane by the quality of its record keeping.
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The essential paperwork is not the logs. Does the seller has clear title to the plane? Is the plane a partnership, co-owner? Does the FAA Registry website show the person who claims to be the owner listed as the owner. Only then do you move on to the rest of the paperwork.
 
How many hours flown in the last year, two years? Everyone negotiates a little differently, I prefer to establish a price that is based on an airworthy airplane and then have it inspected. You have to have an out for buyer and seller in an inspection as well. I've never had any trouble, but you could have a seller that doesn't want to fix anything, or a buyer that wants a new 30 year old airplane. I've been lucky, I guess, dealing with reasonable buyers and sellers.:D I think with airplanes and a lot of other big ticket items, it's all about managing expectations.;) Remember looking is half the fun!:D
 
DavidWhite said:
Also don't sign anything until you get a real pre-buy done by a real mechanic.
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Why would it require a "Real Mechanic" to know the material condition of an aircraft?
 
Who is the last registered owner in the FAA data base, can you show a bill of sale from each owner after them?

other wise you will not get to be the registered owner.
 
tinerj said:
Does the seller has clear title to the plane? Is the plane a partnership, co-owner? Does the FAA Registry website show the person who claims to be the owner listed as the owner. Only then do you move on to the rest of the paperwork.
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It is all essential paperwork. You don't buy a plane without the logs or clear title.

I personally don't bother asking the seller for that info - many I have dealt with (both brokers and individual sellers) don't even know what is in the FAA file.

That is why you do the Title search yourself.
 
Tom-D said:
Why do annuals have to be expensive to be good ones?
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They don't....but when the seller tells you he has only spent $1-2000 per year fixing annual squawks on a 70+ year old airplane, that is going to at least make me a little suspicious. Not necessarily walk away....but suspicious.
 
Fearless Tower said:
They don't....but when the seller tells you he has only spent $1-2000 per year fixing annual squawks on a 70+ year old airplane, that is going to at least make me a little suspicious. Not necessarily walk away....but suspicious.
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How do we know it isn't a resent restoration?

How much spent at annual time doesn't mean anything.
 
The single-most important thing for a buyer to do is understand the market in order to establish the price he/she will be willing to pay if the airplane is in the represented condition in the seller's ad and supporting documents.

Once that is known, the buyer should determine whether such a price is acceptable to the seller. If so, do all the work necessary to assure that the condition matches the representations and that all the mechanical, record-keeping, history and other paperwork are in order.

If not, don't spend a lot of time asking a bunch of questions and conducting research that don't matter if the plane can't be bought for the amount you're willing to spend.
 
Tom-D said:
How do we know it isn't a resent restoration?
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If the airplane is not located near you then that is an obvious question to ask. My example was not pertaining to a recent restoration.

Tom-D said:
How much spent at annual time doesn't mean anything.
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It does and it doesn't. The info by itself is just a factoid that means absolutely nothing. You have to take that info into context. It may or may not mean something.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It is all essential paperwork. You don't buy a plane without the logs or clear title.

That is why you do the Title search yourself.
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What if,,,, the FAA web page tells us the Sale reported. And the name isn't the guy you are buying it from?

Is that a clear title, or reason to walk?
 
As far as negotiating, I hate to haggle. Normally I just figure out what the lower end of what like items sell for and make an offer... about 90% of the time, the seller agrees to that knowing its fair right off and we're done.

With aircraft, finding another one with similar age, time, panel, condition is damned near impossible so I'm just falling back on the AOPA valuation. Are those pretty close? Seems about right but I know with cars Kelly Blue Book is usually a little high.


Gonna try to find time to make a couple calls tomorrow. Right now my top 2 choices are between great interior/panel with high engine time for a lower price and one with a panel that has everything I really want and a clean/decent interior and only around 800Hrs on the engine for a little more.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It does and it doesn't. The info by itself is just a factoid that means absolutely nothing. You have to take that info into context. It may or may not mean something.
Click to expand...

When you ask that question and get an answer like $10,000 per annual each for the last 10 years, what then?
 
Tom-D said:
What if,,,, the FAA web page tells us the Sale reported. And the name isn't the guy you are buying it from?

Is that a clear title, or reason to walk?
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Depends on how bad I want the airplane. Sometimes it can be cleared up and sometimes it is more trouble than it is worth.

Just like the info on how much the owner put spent to maintain it.....I may not walk away.....but I am going to be alot more suspicious.
 
I know in a heartbeat that it can't be well-maintained.

Tom-D said:
When you ask that question and get an answer like $10,000 per annual each for the last 10 years, what then?
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Fearless Tower said:
Depends on how bad I want the airplane. Sometimes it can be cleared up and sometimes it is more trouble than it is worth.

Just like the info on how much the owner put spent to maintain it.....I may not walk away.....but I am going to be alot more suspicious.
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Like I said, it means nothing..
buying any aircraft it is all about material condition and price.
 
Tom-D said:
When you ask that question and get an answer like $10,000 per annual each for the last 10 years, what then?
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Depends entirely on the airplane.

If it is a Cessna 170 or a DC-3.....I'm going to run like hell.

If it is a Beech 18, I might think that was more reasonable.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Depends entirely on the airplane.

If it is a Cessna 170 or a DC-3.....I'm going to run like hell.

If it is a Beech 18, I might think that was more reasonable.
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I guess I can tell the buyer that I've spent 25,000 to get my 170 thru annual.
 

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