What should A+Ps avoid doing

[James331]

In this case, I'd simply sign off the annual as un-airworthy. because if it is not in a condition for safe operation it is not airworthy.
but with your attitude you need not worry about me doing any thing for you. Simply because I don't work for those who want to argue

You would write in a logbook "unairworthy"??!

And what's that have to do with paying you for a annual inspection?

Would you not reassemble the aircraft with a list of snags?

Otherwise you're just scamming people and not performing the work you were paid to do.

 

[Tom-D]

And tell them to send you a cell phone photo after it’s affixed,.

No,, just bring the maintenance records, I'll make the entry as the FARs require.
As an owner you are required to get the entry in your records.

 

[Tom-D]

You would write in a logbook "unairworthy"??!

And what's that have to do with paying you for a annual inspection?

Would you not reassemble the aircraft with a list of snags?

Otherwise you're just scamming people and not performing the work you were paid to do.

You labor under a false impression, that the annual inspection includes repairs. there is nothing in the FARs to support that idea.

 

[Tom-D]

You would write in a logbook "unairworthy"??!.

I'll make the entry as FAR 43 requires.

 

[Tom-D]

I won't use stickers, always write directly onto the page.

I use a Avery label with the main body of the entry on it. then I place it in the log book, and make the rest of the required entry (TT, TSMO, Date etc), directly in the log book.

 

[James331]

You labor under a false impression, that the annual inspection includes repairs. there is nothing in the FARs to support that idea.

Actually that was my point a post or two back.

You are paid for a inspection, I can have who ever (qualified of course) perform any needed work, however bringing you a intact plane for inspection and getting a pile of parts back with "unairworthy" 'written in my log book is unacceptable, and I'd wager most of the pilot and legal community would agree.

I'll make the entry as FAR 43 requires.

It was a yes or no question tom, would you write "unairworthy" in your customers log book?

 

[Tom-D]

Actually that was my point a post or two back.

You are paid for a inspection, I can have who ever (qualified of course) perform any needed work, however bringing you a intact plane for inspection and getting a pile of parts back with "unairworthy" 'written in my log book is unacceptable, and I'd wager most of the pilot and legal community would agree.




It was a yes or no question tom, would you write "unairworthy" in your customers log book?

FAR 43.11(5) Except for progressive inspections, if the aircraft is not approved for return to service because of needed maintenance, noncompliance with applicable specifications, airworthiness directives, or other approved data, the following or a similarly worded statement—“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator.”

This is the proper entry for any aircraft that is not in an airworthy condition and the annual needs to be signed off.
Then the annual is complete and any authorized person can return it to service on there signature, and yes I do write "unairworthy" in the log book

 

[James331]

...and yes I do write "unairworthy" in the log book...

And where exactly in that FAR does it say you even have the ability to say that?

Also why would you write such a thing in the log?

All I know is lots of places would **** can you on the spot if you were audacious or dumb enough to personally write "unairworthy" in a aircrafts logs, perhaps one should stick to the FARs eh?

 

[Tom-D]

Actually that was my point a post or two back.

You are paid for a inspection, I can have who ever (qualified of course) perform any needed work, however bringing you a intact plane for inspection and getting a pile of parts back with "unairworthy" 'written in my log book is unacceptable, and I'd wager most of the pilot and legal community would agree.

Best way to avoid this is to not bring junk in for inspection.

What would you expect any A&P-IA to do when they find a serious discrepancy, put it back together ? if they did, how would you expect the sign off to read?
Remember FAR 43.13

 

[James331]

Best way to avoid this is to not bring junk in for inspection.

What would you expect any A&P-IA to do when they find a serious discrepancy, put it back together ? if they did, how would you expect the sign off to read?
Remember FAR 43.13

Don't bring you junk he says lol

It would read as that FAR mentioned, there is also guidance on this in other letters from the FAA, some mention a separate sheet of paper for the snags, and I would expect my plane put back together so I could move it back to its hangar or get a ferry permit, or maybe just because you are a professional and that is what's expected.

I come back to pick up my plane and see my plane in pieces sprawled across your little workspace and "unairworthy" inked in my log, it would not be a good day

 

[Tom-D]

And where exactly in that FAR does it say you even have the ability to say that?

Also why would you write such a thing in the log?

All I know is lots of places would **** can you on the spot if you were audacious or dumb enough to personally write "unairworthy" in a aircrafts logs, perhaps one should stick to the FARs eh?

I've already quoted the FAR. And given the reasoning behind the rule.

 

[Tom-D]

Don't bring you junk he says lol

It would read as that FAR mentioned, there is also guidance on this in other letters from the FAA, some mention a separate sheet of paper for the snags, and I would expect my plane put back together so I could move it back to its hangar or get a ferry permit, or maybe just because you are a professional and that is what's expected.

I come back to pick up my plane and see my plane in pieces sprawled across your little workspace and "unairworthy" inked in my log, it would not be a good day

You can expect a lot of things. I've yet to see a happy owner that just found out there aircraft was junk. Just because you are not happy does not constitute a crises for me.

 

[James331]

I've already quoted the FAR. And given the reasoning behind the rule.

And yet you don't follow the FAR



“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator.”




That's what you write in the logs as a professional, maybe my eyesight is going in my not so old age, but I'm having a heck a time where the word UNAIRWORTHY is mentioned in that sentence, maybe you need some thicker readers bud.

You can expect a lot of things. I've yet to see a happy owner that just found out there aircraft was junk. Just because you are not happy does not constitute a crises for me.

Wow, talk about one of those things a one man shop should "avoid doing" lol

Lots of things can make a aircraft unairworthy, even in aircraft that are faaaar from junk.


There was a PC-12 that had the compass correction card somehow fall out, until a new one was made up (luckily there were copies) it was UNAIRWORTHY, do you think that mechanic was dumb enough to write "unairworthy" anywhere in its books? You think that plane should have been sent to the junk pile?


And if your unneeded, uncalled for by the FARs, supercilious scribblings in a someone's logbook cause a reasonable person to believe it may harm the value of said aircraft, it might very well end up comming back to bite you in the butt, be it in a court of law, or the court of public opinion in your small local aviation community.

Or just do the work you agree to do, fully, and keep your ink to the FARs, bonus points if you can also be civil and smile.


Come on tom, you know this lol

 

[Ravioli]

Don't charge a customer for a tool. Unless that tool will be left in their possession after the work AND that is pre-arranged.

EX: Recent Lycoming bushing inspection tool.

 

[Tom-D]

James331's attitude is exactly why I limit my customer base. And why I have always advocated that you have your annual preformed in your hangar.
Then the inspector has the option to complete the annual as unairworthy and then you can have any authorized person make the needed repairs return to service.
But James seems to believe he can dump in in the FBO's hangar and they will do the inspection, and repairs and he can just come in and pay the bill and go fly.

 

[Tom-D]

“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator.”

That's what you write in the logs as a professional, maybe my eyesight is going in my not so old age, but I'm having a heck a time where the word UNAIRWORTHY is mentioned in that sentence, maybe you need some thicker readers bud.

that is an unairworthy sign off I don't care how you read it.
That sign off does not say "And was found to be in an airworthy condition" as would be required to be an airworthy sign off.

I believe you need a lesson in how to read and interpret what an airworthy entry is.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Best way to avoid this is to not bring junk in for inspection.

What would you expect any A&P-IA to do when they find a serious discrepancy, put it back together ? if they did, how would you expect the sign off to read?
Remember FAR 43.13

Sign off the annual with discrepancies just like you said. But putting "Unairworthy" in the logbook is redundant, unnecessary, and improper in my opinion. "With discrepancies " covers it without further comment.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

that is an unairworthy sign off I don't care how you read it.
That sign off does not say "And was found to be in an airworthy condition" as would be required to be an airworthy sign off.

Hence the reason why putting unairworthy in the logbook is redundant.

 

[James331]

James331's attitude is exactly why I limit my customer base. And why I have always advocated that you have your annual preformed in your hangar.
Then the inspector has the option to complete the annual as unairworthy and then you can have any authorized person make the needed repairs return to service.
But James seems to believe he can dump in in the FBO's hangar and they will do the inspection, and repairs and he can just come in and pay the bill and go fly.

Tom, ya got to re read what I wrote

I never, not ever, said anything about repairs being required for a annual inspection, that said I did say that not being left with a pile of parts if I decide to have someone else do the work is expected, that is part of the deal with the inspection, unless we agree otherwise. Just because you find something doesn't change the job I pay you to do, if you didn't find that XYZ you would have still put the time in to put the plane back together right?

And again if you don't find the aircraft is in an airworthy condition, you make that far 43 entry, BUT YOU DONT WRITE "UNAIRWORTHY" in the damn log, you have been around the game long enough to know this, I mean that's about as professional as writing "and as a mechanic I think the owner is a big poopy head" The logbook represents the plane, the owner and anyone who puts ink to it, keep it PROFESSIONAL, and that means keep the entry's inline with the FARs. When the FARs even give you a template as to what to write, that's what you write lol

 

[Tom-D]

Sign off the annual with discrepancies just like you said. But putting "Unairworthy" in the logbook is redundant, unnecessary, and improper in my opinion. "With discrepancies " covers it without further comment.

Greg, I have never said that I would do anything other than what was in the rules.
FAR 43.11 is clear that the word "unairworthy' be written in the entry when the aircraft is not airworthy.

James has already posted that, but seems unable to cope with this statement.

 

[Tom-D]

you make that far 43 entry, BUT YOU DONT WRITE "UNAIRWORTHY" in the damn log,

How can you make that entry with out using the statement given in FAR 43
(5) Except for progressive inspections, if the aircraft is not approved for return to service because of needed maintenance, noncompliance with applicable specifications, airworthiness directives, or other approved data, the following or a similarly worded statement—“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator.”

 

[Tom-D]

Tom, ya got to re read what I wrote

No, it's obvious that no matter what I write you will read what you like to see..

 

[Tom-D]

When during an annual inspection it is found that the aircraft is not in compliance with FAR part 39. (ADs are due)
is the inspector required to complete the ADs to finish the annual?

 

[Tantalum]

Don’t complain about your other customers to me. If you complain about them to me, what are you saying about me to them?

A lot of small business do that.. and it's always a surprise to me

 

[denverpilot]

Don't charge a customer for a tool. Unless that tool will be left in their possession after the work AND that is pre-arranged.

EX: Recent Lycoming bushing inspection tool.

Your shop did that? Wow. Jerks. FAA already handed them tons of hours of work for that tool. Itemizing it on the shop bill is slimy. You don’t itemize screwdrivers.

Around here the shops bought them and enjoyed the extra work the silly AD brought them and didn’t insult customers by itemizing the tool. They spread the cost of the tool over all the jobs it was used for like any other tool.

 

[denverpilot]

I think you have forgotten that poor hand writing is an A&P's best insurance.

And not in the owner’s best interests. If I couldn’t read an entry I’d make you re-write it or type up a sticker if penmanship isn’t your thing.

I expect the same of anything I’m writing in someone else’s pilot logbook too.

 

[GlennAB1]

And yet you don't follow the FAR



“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator.”




That's what you write in the logs as a professional, maybe my eyesight is going in my not so old age, but I'm having a heck a time where the word UNAIRWORTHY is mentioned in that sentence, maybe you need some thicker readers bud.

WTF is wrong with you?

 

[James331]

WTF is wrong with you?

Reading back over it think it was perhaps a little miscommunication between me and tom, also part me rattling toms cage a little.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Greg, I have never said that I would do anything other than what was in the rules.
FAR 43.11 is clear that the word "unairworthy' be written in the entry when the aircraft is not airworthy.

James has already posted that, but seems unable to cope with this statement.

I didn't realize how the entry was written. You are absolutely correct on that.

 

[denverpilot]

As long as it’s legible. LOL.

 

[Paulie]

When during an annual inspection it is found that the aircraft is not in compliance with FAR part 39. (ADs are due)
is the inspector required to complete the ADs to finish the annual?

No.

 

[Paulie]

Reading back over it think it was perhaps a little miscommunication between me and tom, also part me rattling toms cage a little.

Why do you keep saying that the airplane be is going to be in pieces? The inspection is performed, part of the inspection is returning the aircraft to the condition it was when the inspection started. If discrepancies are found they are noted. If they discrepancies are not corrected the sign of is that the airplane was found to be in a unairworthy condition. When the discrepancies are corrected and signed off by a qualified person (IA not required) the aircraft becomes airworthy. What is so tough about that? And yes ADs count and a inspection does not include complying with them. You want ADs and discrepancies corrected you better be willing to pay for them and the inspector is not required to perform the repairs.

 

[James331]

Why do you keep saying that the airplane be is going to be in pieces? The inspection is performed, part of the inspection is returning the aircraft to the condition it was when the inspection started. If discrepancies are found they are noted. If they discrepancies are not corrected the sign of is that the airplane was found to be in a unairworthy condition. When the discrepancies are corrected and signed off by a qualified person (IA not required) the aircraft becomes airworthy. What is so tough about that? And yes ADs count and a inspection does not include complying with them. You want ADs and discrepancies corrected you better be willing to pay for them and the inspector is not required to perform the repairs.

What then happens when you find a big expensive problem that the owner is not capable to pay? are you going to put it back together ?

 

[Tom-D]

Why do you keep saying that the airplane be is going to be in pieces? The inspection is performed, part of the inspection is returning the aircraft to the condition it was when the inspection started.

There is nothing saying the aircraft must be put back together by the inspector.
I often do the inspection, then allow the owner to close up, prior to taking the aircraft out for a turn up and test and check. and when it's all done it gets signed off.

 

[Tom-D]

No.

OK, my sign off would be,

“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with annual inspection and found to be unairworthy due to AD # xxxxx xx xx not complied with”

All that would require to be airworthy is a simple statement saying the AD was complied with.
The owner can't say they didn't get a list.

 

[Paulie]

I give the airplane back to the owner the way I got it.
"James is god" you really have a high opinion of yourself, don't you?

 

[Paulie]

There is nothing saying the aircraft must be put back together by the inspector.
I often do the inspection, then allow the owner to close up, prior to taking the aircraft out for a turn up and test and check. and when it's all done it gets signed off.

That's the way you do it, fine. I return the aircraft to the owner in the condition I received it.

 

[Tom-D]

I give the airplane back to the owner the way I got it.
"James is god" you really have a high opinion of yourself, don't you?

What if: There is an AD due that you don't have the tools and or the equipment to comply with. there are ADs that require Eddy current equipment, or X-ray you got the equipment?
In cases like that you must finish the annual, sign it off as unairworthy, then get a ferry permit to go where the AD can be done.

Is that the condition you found it ?

 

[James331]

I give the airplane back to the owner the way I got it.

Agreed

"James is god" you really have a high opinion of yourself, don't you?

At least I'm real

 

[Tom-D]

Don't charge a customer for a tool. Unless that tool will be left in their possession after the work AND that is pre-arranged.

EX: Recent Lycoming bushing inspection tool.

If you want me to do that AD, you'll buy the tool. And I'll rent it from you if / when I need it again.