What kind of commercial, for hire work, can I do in a Navajo?

Piperboy

Piperboy

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Piperboy
Hi to all,

I was wondering as to what kind of commercial, for hire work, can be done in a Navajo? I am located in the northern NJ/NYC area, but can relocate anywhere. Any thoughts will be much appreciated.
 
There's a lot you can do with a Navajo. They are great work airplanes. You need to get yourself set up with a part 135 certificate though which will require jumping thru a few hoops.
 
You guys mean like buy into a part 135 certificate, or start from scratch? This would be difficult wouldn't it?
 
Piperboy said:
You guys mean like buy into a part 135 certificate, or start from scratch? This would be difficult wouldn't it?
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Yes, it would. It also assumes you meet 135 minimums.

The multi instruction thing not working out?
 
Piperboy said:
You guys mean like buy into a part 135 certificate, or start from scratch? This would be difficult wouldn't it?
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Yes. Also depends a lot on the FSDO that you are under. Last I checked it was an 18-24 month process to get any new 135 out of the Richmond FSDO.

You can shorten that timeline by purchasing an existing 135 operation, but that still requires a fair amount of paperwork and dealing with the FSDO.
 
If you can get a 135 cert you can park it on the ramp at a Class B or C airport that has demand for overflow freight and hang a sign on it. Then start doing overflow freight runs. Usually at night.
 
Art VanDelay said:
There's a lot you can do with a Navajo. They are great work airplanes. You need to get yourself set up with a part 135 certificate though which will require jumping thru a few hoops.
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Or buy an existing one.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Yes, it would. It also assumes you meet 135 minimums.

The multi instruction thing not working out?
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I haven't started doing any flying yet. I have checked out some hangars, insurance (reasonable), and am trying to get a general scoop on what kind of work I can do with a Navajo, once I retire from my current job. I suspect that some of you guys might be right about teaching in a Navajo, the market might be small.
 
119.1 tells you what you can do with out a commercial operators (e.g., part 135) certificate. See what ones you can do with a Navajo. Note that in many cases you still need the drug testing program in place (if you're carrying passengers). You are going to need that for the 135 no matter whether you buy into an existing certificate or start from scratch. There's a nice cottage industry around major airports for guys offering the testing. My old AME used to run one.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Yes. Also depends a lot on the FSDO that you are under. Last I checked it was an 18-24 month process to get any new 135 out of the Richmond FSDO.

You can shorten that timeline by purchasing an existing 135 operation, but that still requires a fair amount of paperwork and dealing with the FSDO.
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I'll talk to the local FSDO. Thanks.
 
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coloradobluesky said:
If you can get a 135 cert you can park it on the ramp at a Class B or C airport that has demand for overflow freight and hang a sign on it. Then start doing overflow freight runs. Usually at night.
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Long time ago I flew for a while on night check runs, but I guess that is dead now. Night freight, that could be interesting. Thanks.
 
I would put your plane on someone else's certificate with you as the pilot.
 
flyingron said:
119.1 tells you what you can do with out a commercial operators (e.g., part 135) certificate. See what ones you can do with a Navajo. Note that in many cases you still need the drug testing program in place (if you're carrying passengers). You are going to need that for the 135 no matter whether you buy into an existing certificate or start from scratch. There's a nice cottage industry around major airports for guys offering the testing. My old AME used to run one.
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I undergo random drug and alcohol testing at my current job, so no problem here. Looks like getting a 135 certificate will require a major effort. I still have few more years to decide on what kind of work I will do with a Navajo, and start setting it up.
 
Kritchlow said:
I would put your plane on someone else's certificate with you as the pilot.
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That's an interesting twist. I wonder how large of a slice of the pie would they want for this privilege.
 
Piperboy said:
I undergo random drug and alcohol testing at my current job, so no problem here. Looks like getting a 135 certificate will require a major effort. I still have few more years to decide on what kind of work I will do with a Navajo, and start setting it up.
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The problem isn't being on a program...the problem is having your own program.
 
Oh I see what you mean. Got to have my own in-house program.
 
Ever considered cutting a belly hole in it? Seems to be a shortage of *reliable* twin engine lift for the aerial mapping / remote sensing industry (plenty of clapped out rust buckets though). Wouldn't need a 135 for that just an STC that is probably already available somewhere.
 
Todd82 said:
Ever considered cutting a belly hole in it? Seems to be a shortage of *reliable* twin engine lift for the aerial mapping / remote sensing industry (plenty of clapped out rust buckets though). Wouldn't need a 135 for that just an STC that is probably already available somewhere.
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At this point I am still looking at any and all the possibilities. Aerial sight-seeing, photography, teaching multi. Aerial mapping / remote sensing.. Got to read up on it. Thanks.
 
Or maybe a "mile high club" flights. ;) Just need a door between the cabin and cockpit.

Something I have thought about.... a lot of Navajo and Chieftains still used in Alaska. I haven't really put much effort into it but there might be a market for people that want to transition from a sled to the Chieftain to make themselves more attractive to companies. I was thinking something along the lines of a Navajo/Chieftain transition course along with differences training on flying in Alaska. That could open up to 206/207 training for folks that want to fly in Alaska. And then again a C-208 course.

There was something like that when I first went to Alaska 20 years ago. People were paying $3000 just for the differences course and a little time in a C-207. I think it was a 5 or 6 day course, ground in the morning and fly in the afternoon, but a 135 checkride was not included.

The selling point would be to go to companies and see if they would hire from your pool.
 
Do you need a 135 to fly ad hoc freight?
 
If you go 135 your plane will also have to be mechanically able to meet the requirements, al la overhaul times (both tac times and calendar times) etc
 
I think there might be a major problem with 135 for me. As a 135 operator supposedly one can't do his own maintenance. I got to have my hands right on the airplane, keeping it in top shape, doing most of the work myself..
 
Piperboy said:
I think there might be a major problem with 135 for me. As a 135 operator supposedly one can't do his own maintenance. I got to have my hands right on the airplane, keeping it in top shape, doing most of the work myself..
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FWIW, the same caveat applies to sightseeing ops.
 
Piperboy said:
I think there might be a major problem with 135 for me. As a 135 operator supposedly one can't do his own maintenance. I got to have my hands right on the airplane, keeping it in top shape, doing most of the work myself..
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I am guessing you will want a single pilot 135 certificate.

Do you have an A+P?
 
Fearless Tower said:
FWIW, the same caveat applies to sightseeing ops.
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I thought sight-seeing is part 136 and 91, so maintenance is allowed, unlike 135.

This would be a major setback, as I was thinking sight-seeing, and a bit of multi teaching.
 
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Zeldman said:
I am guessing you will want a single pilot 135 certificate.

Do you have an A+P?
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I don't have an A&P but have few A&P friends who say will inspect and sign my work. Some of it will have to be done by them, some outsourced to specialized companies.
 
James331 said:
If you go 135 your plane will also have to be mechanically able to meet the requirements, al la overhaul times (both tac times and calendar times) etc
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I guess this would require a maintenance program to stay on top of it all.
 
Zeldman said:
a lot of Navajo and Chieftains still used in Alaska.
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I was a passenger on a Navajo a week ago. A one-hour flight from Anchorage to a gravel strip near a fishing lodge.

Single pilot. An old plane that could use a paint job. Navigation was by Garmin 296.

Besides filling every seat with an adult, they also loaded cases of booze and wine for the lodge. After taxiing down a street to enter the International airport, we took off after some giant freight planes from Asia.

The flight was VFR, despite a cloud layer. We climbed slowly at about 200 fpm to 6500, making me wonder what the loss of one engine would do. When we started clipping the tops of the broken cloud layer below us, the pilot found a hole and descended to 2500, to finish crossing Cook's Inlet. Great scenery.

I noticed that the seat-back pocket had flotation devices; they were not mentioned in the passenger briefing, which is just as well because hypothermia would surely have killed us.

Earplugs were issued at the start of the flight, and I was grateful for them.
 
Seems to me that you're putting the cart before the horse again like last time, wanting to give instruction in the Navajo. Why not find a job and buy an airplane suitable for doing that job?

OP, how many hours do you have? Are you even qualified to do the work people are suggesting here? Worrying about things like who is doing maintenance won't make a difference if you can't do the work anyway.
 
mondtster said:
Seems to me that you're putting the cart before the horse again like last time, wanting to give instruction in the Navajo. Why not find a job and buy an airplane suitable for doing that job?

OP, how many hours do you have? Are you even qualified to do the work people are suggesting here? Worrying about things like who is doing maintenance won't make a difference if you can't do the work anyway.
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My flight time is 20,000+ I can do the above work, no sweat. Have done some of it already. If I can't do most of my own maintenance and have control over it, then it becomes a problem.
 
NoHeat said:
I was a passenger on a Navajo a week ago. A one-hour flight from Anchorage to a gravel strip near a fishing lodge.

Single pilot. An old plane that could use a paint job. Navigation was by Garmin 296.

Besides filling every seat with an adult, they also loaded cases of booze and wine for the lodge. After taxiing down a street to enter the International airport, we took off after some giant freight planes from Asia.

The flight was VFR, despite a cloud layer. We climbed slowly at about 200 fpm to 6500, making me wonder what the loss of one engine would do. When we started clipping the tops of the broken cloud layer below us, the pilot found a hole and descended to 2500, to finish crossing Cook's Inlet. Great scenery.

I noticed that the seat-back pocket had flotation devices; they were not mentioned in the passenger briefing, which is just as well because hypothermia would surely have killed us.

Earplugs were issued at the start of the flight, and I was grateful for them.
Click to expand...

They are the trucks of aviation and sure not new anymore...

And I know the street you are talking about.
 
Piperboy said:
I thought sight-seeing is part 136 and 91, so maintenance is allowed, unlike 135.

This would be a major setback, as I was thinking sight-seeing, and a bit of multi teaching.
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For sightseeing, you need to have an approved LOA from the FSDO. The LOA application must designate the maintenance facility that maintains the aircraft and the personnel of that facility must also be listed on your approved drug program.

It isn't anywhere near as involved as a 135 operation, but the way it was explained to me by the FSDO is that any maintenance must be done under the designated maintenance shop.
 
Piperboy said:
My flight time is 20,000+ I can do the above work, no sweat. If I can't do most of my own maintenance and have control over it, then it becomes a problem.
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Then you ought to know what you can and can't do with the airplane to make money. Why are you asking?

Regarding maintenance, I think you're making a bigger deal out of the idea that you don't "have control" over things. You have plenty of control - you can choose who does the work. What you don't necessarily have control over is what work you can let slide, such as service bulletins. To bring a non compliant airplane up to 135 specs can be quite costly, your best bet is to buy one that is currently on a 135 certificate.
 
Fearless Tower said:
For sightseeing, you need to have an approved LOA from the FSDO. The LOA application must designate the maintenance facility that maintains the aircraft and the personnel of that facility must also be listed on your approved drug program.

It isn't anywhere near as involved as a 135 operation, but the way it was explained to me by the FSDO is that any maintenance must be done under the designated maintenance shop.
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Good, very informative stuff. Hopefully I will sort all of this out, define my mission, visit the local FISDO and discuss it with them, and start setting up my operation.
 
mondtster said:
Then you ought to know what you can and can't do with the airplane to make money. Why are you asking?

Regarding maintenance, I think you're making a bigger deal out of the idea that you don't "have control" over things. You have plenty of control - you can choose who does the work. What you don't necessarily have control over is what work you can let slide, such as service bulletins. To bring a non compliant airplane up to 135 specs can be quite costly, your best bet is to buy one that is currently on a 135 certificate.
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I work for a 121 operator and have for decades. This will be my first venture into my own operation, and I am still evolving in this area.
 
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