What is Going on at KBJC (Rocky Mountain Metropolitan Airport)/Cost to Relocate Port a Port Hangar

[Penguinforce]

We have a POS airport manager that is actively trying and possibly will succeed with forcing all 60 of us port a port hangar owners to relocate our port a port hangars from one part of the airport where they have been since the 70s or 80s, and move them across two runways on our own dime with only a 30 day notice. If this happens, I want to be ready beforehand. I was wondering if anyone has any idea about the potential cost or knows of anyone in Colorado that we could reach out to for potential quotes on this.

On a side note, anyone know the legalities or the process that can be started to remove an airport manager from power? Like a number of signatures on a petition or something like that?

 

[schmookeeg]

This is my nightmare. No help, but watching intently. I'm at an airport that seems to have a strong allergy to GA recently, so I suspect we'll get this treatment at some point.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

On a side note, anyone know the legalities or the process that can be started to remove an airport manager from power? Like a number of signatures on a petition or something like that?

Check your local laws. Airport management is a local municipality/county thing. Each airport is different, there are no federal or state laws to oversee this.

 

[mondtster]

I’d call a steel building construction company and see what they would suggest. A second option might be to call a building moving company. I know a sizable hangar was moved at an airport somewhat near me and it appeared to remain in one piece as they moved it. I also have a friend who owns a group of t-hangars that were moved from one airport to another by deconstructing it and reassembling it at the new airport.

As far as airport management goes, the problem (if there is one) may not be with the manager. There are various ways that airports are run so you’re going to need to know who is really driving the potential move if you hope to stop it.

 

[Daleandee]

We have a POS airport manager that is actively trying and possibly will succeed with forcing all 60 of us port a port hangar owners to relocate our port a port hangars from one part of the airport where they have been since the 70s or 80s, and move them across two runways on our own dime with only a 30 day notice. If this happens, I want to be ready beforehand. I was wondering if anyone has any idea about the potential cost or knows of anyone in Colorado that we could reach out to for potential quotes on this.

On a side note, anyone know the legalities or the process that can be started to remove an airport manager from power? Like a number of signatures on a petition or something like that?

I would concentrate on having the hangar relocated. Airport managers, whether good or evil, seem to get things to go their way. One of the local airports I have a hangar at recently went through a change by direction of the town mayor. There was a lot of noise, smoke and wringing of hands but after the dust settled things are pretty much back to normal ...

 

[SoonerAviator]

Call a metal building contractor in the area. They can quote you the teardown/move/reassemble. Might be able to get a bulk discount if the other owners want to do a mass move.

 

[Country Flier]

Call a metal building contractor in the area. They can quote you the teardown/move/reassemble. Might be able to get a bulk discount if the other owners want to do a mass move.

Why tear down/reassemble? Aren't they designed to be moved? There was one at the last airport I was at...dang thing had a trailer hitch!

 

[SoonerAviator]

Why tear down/reassemble? Aren't they designed to be moved? There was one at the last airport I was at...dang thing had a trailer hitch!

Just depends on what obstacles are in the way. If he's in the middle of a row of port-a-ports and there's not enough room to pull it out in one piece then they'd have to disassemble, trailer it to the other area and reassemble. Obviously it'd be much nicer to leave it in one piece from a labor cost standpoint, but the metal building contractor can sort that out.

 

[mandm]

Don’t T-hangars have a shared wall?

 

[Lowflynjack]

Don’t T-hangars have a shared wall?

Not always. In this case, they're just shaped like a T. Kind of look like an upside down T from the front too! Port-A-Port

 

[murphey]

Jeffco? As others here have mentioned, what's driving this? County? Locals? FAA? I'd also suggest getting the area AOPA rep, Colorado Pilots (CPA) and CABA involved. If you don't know any of the acronyms, contact me off-line and provide names and contacts.

Since Jeffco takes Federal money, might be interesting to get your Congressional Rep involved....I can't tell if you're in CO-2 (Neguse) or CO-7 (Pettersen). If it's Neguse, then that probably won't be much help because a few years ago he took the side of the locals against Longmont airport (which was a lost cause because the judge told the locals to pound sand). But you never know.

Wait....according to Jeffco website (Rocky Mtn Metro), it's Neguse, CO-2. Don't think he's going to be much help either, as he's gotten on the Airport Noise bandwagon, e.g.

https://www.superiorcolorado.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/16199/637068417413200000

Let me also point you to the state reps at

https://www.codot.gov/programs/aeronautics/assets/pdf-files/2023colegdistairports.pdf

So looking at the map….they want you to move south of the runways?

 

[schmookeeg]

Ours are all free-standing. Hard to see in the photo, we're tightly packed but don't quite abut one another. Left edge is like 2" apart, right side more like 4-5". I presume but don't know if there are shared-wall variants. Based on how the support steel is setup, I'm not sure that would save anyone anything, and might be more trouble than it's worth?

 

[3393RP]

It could be worse.

I forget the exact year, but back in the 80s, Cutter Aviation moved its ABQ WWII era hangar over a quarter mile across the ramp. At that time, I was flying into the airport about once a week, so I was able to witness the effort required to effect the relocation.

The preparatory work was extensive. Sitework involved importing large amounts of fill dirt, then compacting and grading it. Huge steel beams were made long enough to span the hangar's width by welding sections together on site. They were then placed on a self propelled multiple wheeled and hydraulically steered platform. The hangar was then jacked up, and the platform was driven underneath it.

It took almost a year to complete the move.

 

[Tools]

I’ve dismantled and moved one. Are the horizontals still in place on the floor? Has the tongue been cut off?

If the “Porto” parts that make them portable are still there, I’m guessing 5 grand at least. If they’re missing, probably double.

Part of the problem is it’s likely gonna be a mechanical contractor that’s used to working commercial jobs, and rates. Gonna have to compete with that.

If you’re mechanically wiley, it’s far from insurmountable.

 

[Bacho]

I’ve never heard of these portable T hangers before. If you have a pile of independent hangars that are identical, I imagine somebody crafty could put together an apparatus to move them.

Get somebody like Mike Patey involved.

 

[Penguinforce]

Jeffco? As others here have mentioned, what's driving this? County? Locals? FAA? I'd also suggest getting the area AOPA rep, Colorado Pilots (CPA) and CABA involved. If you don't know any of the acronyms, contact me off-line and provide names and contacts.

Since Jeffco takes Federal money, might be interesting to get your Congressional Rep involved....I can't tell if you're in CO-2 (Neguse) or CO-7 (Pettersen). If it's Neguse, then that probably won't be much help because a few years ago he took the side of the locals against Longmont airport (which was a lost cause because the judge told the locals to pound sand). But you never know.

Wait....according to Jeffco website (Rocky Mtn Metro), it's Neguse, CO-2. Don't think he's going to be much help either, as he's gotten on the Airport Noise bandwagon, e.g.

https://www.superiorcolorado.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/16199/637068417413200000

Let me also point you to the state reps at

https://www.codot.gov/programs/aeronautics/assets/pdf-files/2023colegdistairports.pdf

So looking at the map….they want you to move south of the runways?

Yes it’s KBJC. They want to move us from where we are currently, between sheltair and signature, to the southwest side by the Pilatus building. And what’s driving it is the airport manager who since he took over has treated GA worse and worse. He’s definitely out to create a legacy and name for himself. They’re trying to expand JSX and other commercial operations at our airport which is frankly silly as we are only 25 miles from Denver international. Also with the legal issues going on with JSX keeping their part 135 status up in the air, they’re likely trying to expand the airport for a business that’s about to be nonexistent even though we are designated as a relief airport specifically for GA, they produced a strategic business plan that wants to ax the current county owned hangars, demolish them and have a private investor build new ones and double or triple the rent, even though the current ones are in fine condition. Living in dry Denver, metal things don’t go bad very often so this whole thing seems like a chance for the airport to look good in the Jefferson county administrations eyes without realizing that this airport has been operating just fine in its current capacity for several years

 

[Penguinforce]

I’ve dismantled and moved one. Are the horizontals still in place on the floor? Has the tongue been cut off?

If the “Porto” parts that make them portable are still there, I’m guessing 5 grand at least. If they’re missing, probably double.

Part of the problem is it’s likely gonna be a mechanical contractor that’s used to working commercial jobs, and rates. Gonna have to compete with that.

If you’re mechanically wiley, it’s far from insurmountable.

I’m not 100% certain if the Porto parts are still there and I’m definitely not savvy enough to move the hangar myself haha

 

[Penguinforce]

There’s actually a meeting next week with the county commissioner that is being driven by the airport manager. He wants to shut down our cross wind runway, 3-21 just to give you more insight on how this manager is treating us GA pilots

 

[mandm]

How’s the terms on the new land lease?

 

[murphey]

One more time…..contact thr AOPA regional rep, CPA at coloradopilots.org, and CABA. Get everyone local invovled.

 

[Penguinforce]

One more time…..contact thr AOPA regional rep, CPA at coloradopilots.org, and CABA. Get everyone local invovled.

Do I have to be a current member in these organizations?

 

[murphey]

Do I have to be a current member in these organizations?

No. What's going on at BJC is a public issue.

AOPA
https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/state-advocacy/northwest-mountain

CABA
https://mycaba.wildapricot.org/

 

[murphey]

Continuing to the OP - were you at the BJC meeting this morning about 3-21? Was anyone involved with your hangars? If not, why not?

 

[Penguinforce]

Continuing to the OP - were you at the BJC meeting this morning about 3-21? Was anyone involved with your hangars? If not, why not?

We ourselves found out that this meeting was only happening two days ago. There was no one there to represent the hangars as this meeting was concentrating solely on 3-21

 

[murphey]

We ourselves found out that this meeting was only happening two days ago. There was no one there to represent the hangars as this meeting was concentrating solely on 3-21

Never pass up an airport meeting, regardless of the topic. You never know what's going to come up in discussion.

 

[Penguinforce]

Never pass up an airport meeting, regardless of the topic. You never know what's going to come up in discussion.

I attended. I've tried to go to all meetings that I could

 

[murphey]

Back to the original question - how to remove an airport manager. In recent Colorado history, I only know of 2 situations. The first, Grand Junction, involved the FBI coming in and taking all the computers and such due to financial mismanagement (that's the polite term) with alleged cooperation between the airport mgr and the president of the hangar association to minimize GA on the field. Other issues there but this was the very public one. The second situation involved another county (which owns the airport) telling the airport mgr to reduce his responsibilities and take a pay cut. Said mgr quit instead (which was the goal of the county).

If the county owns the airport, the county appoints/hires the airport mgr and unless there's serious criminal or financial malfeasance, nothing's going to happen. As long as the county is happy, you have limited options, which, I'm sorry to say, is to move to another airport or try to outlast the mgr. and hope the next one is more accommodating.

 

[Clip4]

We have a POS airport manager that is actively trying and possibly will succeed with forcing all 60 of us port a port hangar owners to relocate our port a port hangars from one part of the airport where they have been since the 70s or 80s, and move them across two runways on our own dime with only a 30 day notice. If this happens, I want to be ready beforehand. I was wondering if anyone has any idea about the potential cost or knows of anyone in Colorado that we could reach out to for potential quotes on this.

On a side note, anyone know the legalities or the process that can be started to remove an airport manager from power? Like a number of signatures on a petition or something like that?

You ought to be happy the POS airport manager is allowing you to move vs remove the hangar.

 

[Morgan3820]

Yes it’s KBJC. They want to move us from where we are currently, between sheltair and signature, to the southwest side by the Pilatus building. And what’s driving it is the airport manager who since he took over has treated GA worse and worse. He’s definitely out to create a legacy and name for himself. They’re trying to expand JSX and other commercial operations at our airport which is frankly silly as we are only 25 miles from Denver international. Also with the legal issues going on with JSX keeping their part 135 status up in the air, they’re likely trying to expand the airport for a business that’s about to be nonexistent even though we are designated as a relief airport specifically for GA, they produced a strategic business plan that wants to ax the current county owned hangars, demolish them and have a private investor build new ones and double or triple the rent, even though the current ones are in fine condition. Living in dry Denver, metal things don’t go bad very often so this whole thing seems like a chance for the airport to look good in the Jefferson county administrations eyes without realizing that this airport has been operating just fine in its current capacity for several years

How about an anonymous tip reporting observed suspicious activity by the manager. See something say something. Use the system to your advantage. Playing fair is for losers.

 

[chemgeek]

If the airport has accepted federal AIP funding, it is subject to certain requirements related to timely notification of aviators for changes in operation/usage, and approval of and assumption of costs for certain changes to airport property and operations, as well as abiding by non-discriminatory policies in terms of impacts on types of users and aviation usages. AOPA can probably provide the expertise to help you gauge the airport actions in regard to FAA policy and legal requirements.

If the airport is considering closing a runway and moving infrastructure, it would normally require modifications and approval of the airport master plan (if subject to FAA past, present, or future funding.) Was that done? Has anyone been keeping tabs on airport commission meetings? Working with the FAA to make these kinds of changes can be glacial without a good consulting agency.

I would like to think that a rational airport management (which would include the local airport commission) would provide timely notification of major changes so as to minimize the economic impact on aviation operations. At the very least, local officials should be made painfully aware of the economic impact of any proposed actions. And if FAA funding is involved, you have additional potential leverage.

The best long-term option is to get pilots involve in airport governance. Our municipal airport commission has 3 active pilots on it (one turbine and two piston). The presence of pilots on this commission keeps discussions grounded in priorities that enhance the safety and economic success of the airport. Sometimes people who are responsible for running things don't know what they don't know. Our airport made money for our local taxpayers this year, and that's not counting indirect economic impacts, which are estimated at around $1M per year. What success we have achieved is a testament to a cooperative attitude between local government, airport users, and taxpayers.

Good luck. It sounds like your local airport management may have unrealistic expectations about the complexity and economic burdens of altering airport operations.

 

[Penguinforce]

In case anyone is interested in what's going on at KBJC, here's the so called Runway feasibility study the airport management published and is presenting to the county commissioners next week to have the crosswind runway shut down. I am currently reaching out to the AOPA advocate as suggested by multiple users as well

https://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001ovM...VRlE768WnGTVANjjhifpUaBgjkINGRB2LZeyBhwdBRQ==

 

[midwestpa24]

I won't speak to the hangar situation, because I don't know what I don't know.

But I will play the devil's advocate on the crosswind runway because I have seen the other side of it, and seen this same situation play out at numerous airports.

Runways are not cheap. Not cheap to build, and not cheap to maintain. Definitely not cheap to rehab and/or reconstruct. Airports also do not have infinite funding. It may seem like it, and we airports do receive a lot of funding, but it doesn't go as far as you would think.

The FAA does not always fund crosswind runway projects. Those are typically considered low priority for funding, especially at an airport that has a total of 3 runways. That passes the burden on to the community and the airport to fund that runway.

It is easy for the GA community to hate losing the crosswind runway, I get it, I fight for ours every chance I get. But eventually the check comes due, and where is the money going to come from? Is the GA community going to start a Gofundme for their runway to raise $14M? If the FAA won't fund it, I doubt the Airport has $14 million sitting in its coffers. The local community would likely rather tear the airport down than spend their tax money on it.

I can't defend everything every airport manager around the country does, but its not as easy a job as many may think. Sometimes hard decisions have to be made, and they won't be popular.

 

[Penguinforce]

I won't speak to the hangar situation, because I don't know what I don't know.

But I will play the devil's advocate on the crosswind runway because I have seen the other side of it, and seen this same situation play out at numerous airports.

Runways are not cheap. Not cheap to build, and not cheap to maintain. Definitely not cheap to rehab and/or reconstruct. Airports also do not have infinite funding. It may seem like it, and we airports do receive a lot of funding, but it doesn't go as far as you would think.

The FAA does not always fund crosswind runway projects. Those are typically considered low priority for funding, especially at an airport that has a total of 3 runways. That passes the burden on to the community and the airport to fund that runway.

It is easy for the GA community to hate losing the crosswind runway, I get it, I fight for ours every chance I get. But eventually the check comes due, and where is the money going to come from? Is the GA community going to start a Gofundme for their runway to raise $14M? If the FAA won't fund it, I doubt the Airport has $14 million sitting in its coffers. The local community would likely rather tear the airport down than spend their tax money on it.

I can't defend everything every airport manager around the country does, but its not as easy a job as many may think. Sometimes hard decisions have to be made, and they won't be popular.

I understand where you are coming from on this and would potentially support this idea if it wasn't for the fact this same airport administration is planning to expand the surface area of the airport by paving new taxiways and aprons as well as developing new building on the south side of our airport while simultaneously demolishing existing taxiways and then redeveloping that area with brand new taxiways and apron space in its place. Clearly the closure of the crosswind runway has everything to do with finances only for the sake of expansion of the airport for commercial development and commercial air carrier services like JSX despite the fact that KBJC is labeled as a GA relief airport. Its also important to note KBJC is located only 25 miles from Denver International Airport, the 3rd busiest airport in the world. So if commercial operators are desperate to do business here, they can easily contract out of DIA instead

 

[midwestpa24]

I understand where you are coming from on this and would potentially support this idea if it wasn't for the fact this same airport administration is planning to expand the surface area of the airport by paving new taxiways and aprons as well as developing new building on the south side of our airport while simultaneously demolishing existing taxiways and then redeveloping that area with brand new taxiways and apron space in its place. Clearly the closure of the crosswind runway has everything to do with finances only for the sake of expansion of the airport for commercial development and commercial air carrier services like JSX despite the fact that KBJC is labeled as a GA relief airport. Its also important to note KBJC is located only 25 miles from Denver International Airport, the 3rd busiest airport in the world. So if commercial operators are desperate to do business here, they can easily contract out of DIA instead

Again, it does come down to funding. There are funding programs available for new development. There is less available for rehabbing a 3rd runway. Every airport is trying to do things that will generate more revenue for the airport. For the most part, airport managers don't get stock options, bonuses, or pay raises because they brought in more development, we are public employees. It is a thankless job. They are just doing what it takes to keep the airport funded and open.

Denver is a big airport yes, but I know from what I've read, gate and terminal space is at a premium. Some of the lower cost carriers have been looking for alternatives to DEN. You see this is many major cities, with a secondary airport catering to the airlines that can't get space at the main international airport. Orlanda, Tampa, LA, just to name a few.

I'm a big proponent of the small GA, being an aircraft owner, pilot, instructor, and professional airport bum. But small GA alone is not a big revenue source for the airport. Let's face it, all of us pilots would do unspeakable things for cheaper hangar rent, cheaper fuel, etc. Our hobby and passion is an expensive one.

 

[Klaus M]

Given the challenge of moving a bureaucrat or moving a large structure? I'll go with the structure any day.

A number of years back a couple folks moved a building about 60x80 by floating it with air. They skirted the base with a hovercraft type skirt, straps inside holding the walls in and sealed all the holes. 2 pickups with engine driven blowers in their beds towing in the front and 2 pickups blowing under the opposite wall driving backwards. Some of the folks witnessing the move across town said the breeze was the biggest problem because it was so easy to move.

If you do the math: 60 x 80 feet is 57,600 square inches meaning 1 psi will pick up over 55,000 pounds or 25 tons.

So So Sad... but, the legal fees opposing a bureaucratic decision is more expensive and slower then everyone buying new hangars
Unfortunately, the airport manager is not working in a vacuum. He's given marching orders from above.

 

[Penguinforce]

I guess going back to the original question, do you know the approximate cost to the owner to move the building? Clearly a port a port hangar is much less square footage but just getting an approximate cost would help when discussing it with building movers in this region.

Given the challenge of moving a bureaucrat or moving a large structure? I'll go with the structure any day.

A number of years back a couple folks moved a building about 60x80 by floating it with air. They skirted the base with a hovercraft type skirt, straps inside holding the walls in and sealed all the holes. 2 pickups with engine driven blowers in their beds towing in the front and 2 pickups blowing under the opposite wall driving backwards. Some of the folks witnessing the move across town said the breeze was the biggest problem because it was so easy to move.

If you do the math: 60 x 80 feet is 57,600 square inches meaning 1 psi will pick up over 55,000 pounds or 25 tons.

So So Sad... but, the legal fees opposing a bureaucratic decision is more expensive and slower then everyone buying new hangars
Unfortunately, the airport manager is not working in a vacuum. He's given marching orders from above.

 

[Klaus M]

I guess going back to the original question, do you know the approximate cost to the owner to move the building? Clearly a port a port hangar is much less square footage but just getting an approximate cost would help when discussing it with building movers in this region.

I don't know many people that would even try to float a building. With that said, if you know a couple pilots that are Hovercraft people they would take on the challenge.

A quick search on the net brings up these fans for $300. Maybe 6 of those $1800. Maybe look into squirrel cage type blowers. (That's where you need to bring the engineer in.) About $2000 in Heavy Duty Vinyl Tarps. $500 in cargo straps and $500 in plywood to cover any vents or areas where air might escape. Barrow four friends pickups and generators to power the fans. Another$500 for miscellaneous items.
Who knows maybe $6000 and use everything over on the next hangar.

 

[Penguinforce]

I don't know many people that would even try to float a building. With that said, if you know a couple pilots that are Hovercraft people they would take on the challenge.

A quick search on the net brings up these fans for $300. Maybe 6 of those $1800. Maybe look into squirrel cage type blowers. (That's where you need to bring the engineer in.) About $2000 in Heavy Duty Vinyl Tarps. $500 in cargo straps and $500 in plywood to cover any vents or areas where air might escape. Barrow four friends pickups and generators to power the fans. Another$500 for miscellaneous items.
Who knows maybe $6000 and use everything over on the next hangar.

I gotta say, that is quite the creative solution haha!

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I don't know many people that would even try to float a building. With that said, if you know a couple pilots that are Hovercraft people they would take on the challenge.

A quick search on the net brings up these fans for $300. Maybe 6 of those $1800. Maybe look into squirrel cage type blowers. (That's where you need to bring the engineer in.) About $2000 in Heavy Duty Vinyl Tarps. $500 in cargo straps and $500 in plywood to cover any vents or areas where air might escape. Barrow four friends pickups and generators to power the fans. Another$500 for miscellaneous items.
Who knows maybe $6000 and use everything over on the next hangar.

Intriguing idea having operated a few hovercraft long ago.

I’d consider a renting a couple of 10+ HP gas powered blowers that would be cheaper, move more air, and could be returned at the end of the weekend.

Also would be curious how my insurance would handle the damage from the ka-woomph when a panel or two blows off after the rusty sheet metal screws give up the ghost.

 

[SoonerAviator]

We built a hovercraft in high school physics class (actually split into 3 teams, so the class built 3 hovercrafts). We were supplied with 1 5x8 sheet of plywood and 3 handheld leaf blowers. Our group used two blowers strapped to the plywood with a blower-output-sized hole cut through to pass the air for the cushion/skirt, and one blower mounted on a swivel at the rear to serve as propulsion/rudder like an outboard boat engine. We found a used above ground pool liner (thick vinyl) and fashioned the air cushion out of that. Had the lightest member of the team as the pilot. Worked pretty well and we won the race/obstacle course that we had to maneuver. That's a lot of leaf blowers for a portable hangar though.