What is an Emergency?

smigaldi said:
Exactly Ron, What we have here are few people who seem to think that they will be thought less of at the club by their buddies if they use the 'e' word. We used to have a name for guys that displayed that attitude when I was still on active duty, we called them 'smoking black holes'.
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Bill,
This is the most offensive post that I have read, by a long way. Yet it remains. Why is that?
Nicely yours,
Charles.
 
Chas said:
Bill,
This is the most offensive post that I have read, by a long way. Yet it remains. Why is that?
Nicely yours,
Charles.
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We generally don't discuss managment/moderator actions, discipline, or our rationale in the forums.

If you feel a post is offensive, please use the bad post button, and we (the managment/moderators) will review the post and make a decision on whether the post stays or not.
 
Chas said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting that ATC NOT be contacted in many "non-emergency" situations and a remedy sought - that's how the need for the E declaration is avoided, obviously. You have posed a false dichotomy - noone is suggesting that ATC should not be contacted and complied with as early as possible when safety dictates
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I would disagree -- several above (including a military pilot trainee) have, I believe, suggested they wouldn't even tell ATC that there was anything amiss until they were in a true distress situation. It is with this concept that I take exception, and while I would not word it quite as smigaldi did, I do believe that this "don't tell ATC nothin' they don't need to know now" attitude is hazardous. Look at the record -- there are folks who died after a vacuum pump failure who didn't even tell ATC about the problem until the lost control! I just cannot understand why everyone is so intent on looking out for ATC's ease by not declaring as soon as the problem arises.
 
The willingness (and I believe in certain cases policy) of ATC's declaring an emergency on a pilot's behalf seem to indicate a predilection on the part of ATC for an emergency to be declared early and often, when warranted.
 
Ron,
Well I guess I didn't read that into any of the posts myself. You are certainly 100% correct that non-communication with ATC can and often is fatal. There just isn't a downside to communicating any sort of a significant concern, the "level" of communication is of secondary importance if the right information comes across. Yes, the attitude you describe is one that we all have to guard against - I'm as fallible as any on this one, as I showed myself early on. For me it was a motivator to get the IR and get used to working with ATC, who IME are marvellously adept and willing to help on the whole.
 
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RotaryWingBob said:
Amen, Ron.
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ditto. The only time I think a pilot should ever be chastised (or worse) is if they declare an emergency simply to obtain priority handling for their convenience. E.G. to land ahead of other traffic in order to get home in time to watch a baseball game.
 
Chas said:
Tom, If that is what a person needs psychologically, then they should declare I suppose. But IMO this should not be the state of mind of a pilot who has lost situational awareness.
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The result of a loss of "situational awareness" could easily lead to a dangerous foray into special airspace in an area like NY. In addition I can see how a relatively inexperienced pilot could easily begin to stress out over being a "little lost" for the first time and IMO declaring at that point would be prudent.

They need help from ATC for sure, but they should not be given the same priority as someone experiencing an in-flight fire, life-threatening medical issue or major mechanical failure. By declaring, you are forcing ATC to give you a priority of handling that may not be appropriate in the circumstances. Better in many cases to explain the situation clearly and let them decide.
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Actually, AFaIK ATC can and does prioritize emergencies so it's not likely that a pilot using the 'E' word when facing a scary but not immediately life threatening situation would preclude ATC from giving priority to another pilot with more urgent problems.
 
While flying IFR you are supposed to notify ATC of any nav equipment failure enroute, even if it is redundant equipment. Not an emergency, but they want to know.

Now, if the equipment failure (or anything else) requires you to deviate from FAR's, seems like you ought to declare so you can do that. Once you declare an emergency, the PIC can do whatever is necessary to get the plane down safe and ATC will help the PIC clear traffic or otherwise provide assistance to get that accomplished. Remember the tower staff that got in some trouble at Dallas I think, when they had a passenger jet with low fuel and a declared emergency use another runway rather than the straight-in to the closest runway that the PIC wanted? The reluctance to use "Emergency" may be simply being aware it includes a lot of PIC responsibility.

If you are not in need of special handling, or any deviation from the FAR's, or smoking from anywhere ... Seems like that is an ATC notification or a PanPan type situation for the civilian pilots. In this case, staying out of Bravo and out of the way of everyone else when lost in the NYC metro area, seems like a need for special handling to me. You military guys have a lot of other regulations to follow that are just as important (more so?) than the FAR's to you.

I liked the example Jeff (El Paso) gave. Not an emergency until special handling was necessary, then an emergency because you were going to close down the airport for a while picking up the pieces and having the crash trucks out would be a comfort. Made perfect sense to me.
 
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Ron Levy said:
I guess you're unfamiliar with the checklists for the F-4, F-111, and A-6. What have you flown in the military besides the single-engine T-6?
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I am familiar with the A-10, and I have over 100 hours in the T-38 and for both a single engine failure is a land as soon as possible.
 
Patch said:
My question is why everyone is so anxious to declare an emergency? In most cases, the guy on the ground can't help you. They don't have your aircraft's checklist sitting in front of them. A lot have probably never even piloted an aircraft.

When the stuff hits the fan, it's always AVIATE, NAVIGATE, THEN COMMUNICATE. In that order. Period.

My recommendation is always to fly the plane first, come up with a gameplan, then TELL ATC what you intend to do. That is the PIC part and the authority to deviate in an emergency. If you can't talk and fly at the same time, then there is no requirement for you to do so because you're the PIC authorizing yourself to deviate.

What happens when you declare an emergency? ATC will ask you a ton of questions (Fuel remaining in minutes, souls on board, intentions, serial number, etc. etc.) then give you priority handling to land, vectors, roll fire trucks, etc.
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A couple of things came to my mind as I read these comments. In my one declared emergency (total engine failure, ~8000AGL, IFR but VMC) I followed the aviate, navigate, communication sequence, but fortunately the communication (E word) with ATC started only about 20 seconds after the engine stopped. And that turned out to be a very good thing. I was trimmed to best glide speed (aviate)and was pointed at the nearest airport (navigate) but knew I probably couldn't make it. The controller immediately advised of an uncharted, paved, private strip only a few miles from my location. His knowledge made this a non-event. Point is that maybe the guy on the ground can help you even if you don't suspect it. For sure he/she can't unless you ask. I also can say that the controller asked no unnecessary questions and figured out quite easily how to prioritize my needs.

I concur with the comments that if the PIC thinks it's an emergency, then it is one. ATC is not the IRS; they ARE there to help you; let 'em I say.
 
Lance F said:
...The controller immediately advised of an uncharted, paved, private strip only a few miles from my location. His knowledge made this a non-event. Point is that maybe the guy on the ground can help you even if you don't suspect it. For sure he/she can't unless you ask.
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Exactly.

I had an AirLifeLine passenger begin hemorrhaging in flight just north of Bakersfield while IFR (and IMC) en route to Orange County. The controller immediately offered up the back course (landing from the north) even though the airport was landing out of the ILS from the south (and one United commuter was currently just cleared for the ILS). The controller started reading me the procedure ("frequency is xxx.xx, inbound course is YYY, intercept altitude is ZZZZ, tell me when you have the procedure in hand, I'll read you the rest if you need it"), waved the United flight off the ILS ("my luck he corks the runway and we have two problems--one emergency is enough").

Now, if I kept the situation to myself would I have eventually been cleared for the BC approach? Sure, maybe, but only after the United flight cleared the ILS. If I kept the situation to myself could I have requested that ATC read me a procedure I was having difficulty finding in the cockpit given the situation right now? Sure, and ATC might have complied after a few minutes of negotiating and explaining--but as it was I didn't have to waste those precious minutes negotiating and explaining. If I kept the situtation to myself would ATC pull a United flight off the ILS so I could have the BC approach, and also have the runway to myself? No.

FWIW, ATC is granted much more operational leeway when you declare an emergency. Why would you remain silent? Maximize your advantages.

FWIW, folks who believe an event is best handled solo fundamentally fail basic CRM--you should use all of the resources you have available to you.
 
gprellwitz said:
Unfamiliar with the reference, and Google returned nothing. Eludicate, please.
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Dr. Jacoby lost control of his Bonanza after having a gyro failure in IMC shortly after takeoff. Wow, hard to believe this was nearly eight years ago!

NTSB Link

-Rich
 
Ron Levy said:
I would disagree -- several above (including a military pilot trainee) have, I believe, suggested they wouldn't even tell ATC that there was anything amiss until they were in a true distress situation. It is with this concept that I take exception, and while I would not word it quite as smigaldi did, I do believe that this "don't tell ATC nothin' they don't need to know now" attitude is hazardous. Look at the record -- there are folks who died after a vacuum pump failure who didn't even tell ATC about the problem until the lost control! I just cannot understand why everyone is so intent on looking out for ATC's ease by not declaring as soon as the problem arises.
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A lot of what I have said should be qualified with, it depends. As I've already mentioned, nothing of what I've said is in reference to military flying - it's just too different.

I speak only as a GA pilot. Whether or not I tell ATC of what's going on depends on whether I think they can add anything useful to the situation. Am I flying VFR on a severe clear CAVU day with nothing even remotely forecast, my destination in sight, and my vacuum pump dies? What do I gain by telling them? Should I call the nearest controlling agency and report it to them if I'm not already with flight following? In IMC, hell yes I'm telling them, and declaring the emergency.

How about alternator failure in VMC? Would you keep transmitting your emergency to drain down the battery (that you may need for gear extension if applicable?), or just proceed to the nearest field and land? IMC?

There are so many variables here, that there really is no one-size fits all. Controllers are highly trained, very professional people that can handle just about anything you throw at them, but there are some situations where it is unnecessary or impractical to involve them without added task saturation. The real answer is - it depends. That's why we get paid the big bucks as PIC to make those decisions. If all else fails, fly the airplane first and foremost, then worry about the queep of whether to declare or press.
 
rpadula said:
Dr. Jacoby lost control of his Bonanza after having a gyro failure in IMC shortly after takeoff. Wow, hard to believe this was nearly eight years ago!

NTSB Link

-Rich
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If I recall correctly, he was an expert who lectured on how to handle losing gyro instruments in IMC.
 
gprellwitz said:
Oy! Thanks for the link!
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Read the whole narrative; he apparently had failure in both the vacuum-driven HSI, and the electrically-operated turn coordinator. Do we believe in coincidences? It appears that the AI was still operating.

So how much did the doctor's FAA-undisclosed medication contribute to his disorientation and inability to recover?

Tragic, but we always try to learn from those who blazed the trails.
 
AuntPeggy said:
If I recall correctly, he was an expert who lectured on how to handle losing gyro instruments in IMC.
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You remember correctly. Despite Newark's approach's smarmy handling of the situation, he needed to have declared an emergency and climbed straight ahead. VMC was present at about 3500 feet that day.

Instead, he ignited 16th street in Newark.
He also had a fraudulently obtained medical certificate....
 
I say do what you need to do to get your airplane on the ground safely. If that means declaring an energency, have at you. I'd rather have my jet safely on the ground and be debriefed on it later than be a smoldering hole in the ground.
 
SCCutler said:
Read the whole narrative; he apparently had failure in both the vacuum-driven HSI, and the electrically-operated turn coordinator. Do we believe in coincidences? It appears that the AI was still operating.
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Poor sucker. Of course these days an inexpensive GPS mounted on the window or yoke would likely have saved his bacon. Not clear if declaring an emergency would have made a difference since he wasn't responding to repeated ATC commands but still they would be the first words out of my mouth that were fit to print. If for no other reason than, if things didn't work out as well as I'd have liked, I wouldn't want my last thought auguring in to be of the posthumous pasting I'd be taking on a thread like this if I had failed to say them .... :yes:
 
bbchien said:
You remember correctly. Despite Newark's approach's smarmy handling of the situation, he needed to have declared an emergency and climbed straight ahead. VMC was present at about 3500 feet that day.

Instead, he ignited 16th street in Newark.
He also had a fraudulently obtained medical certificate....
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Reading the narrative on Dr. Jacoby's crash, I note that the analysis showed a failed DG and TC (and apparently-operational vacuum system). What are the odds of these independent failures occurring simultaneously, or had he chosen to proceed with one or the other inoperative, secure in the knowledge he was well-ready for partial gyro failure?

Doc, I recall the discussion after the crash of a Super Viking very near my home, New Years Day 2004. Seems to me that, if the gyro instruments are telling me fibs, I try to fly a hands-off (or close to it) climb to VMC; this is what positive stability is for, no?

In any event, my fear of this sort of thing (I am not worried that I cannot fly partial-panel, but I worry very much about recognizing it in time to make the adjustment before I kill myself) led me to buy some sim and instructor time. I had vac failure in IMC and survived (it was hinky, but I lived); interesting that I flew quite well for about 5 minutes and then, thinking I was pretty much under control and briefing the approach, almost lost it.

Lesson I got from the instructor: declare (which I did), and demand appropriate handling; he (acting as App controller) was vectoring me around for approach pretty much like a routine IFR flight, so it was a fair amount of turning and descending in IMC. Better course: request (demand) where possible to remain in VMC on top and vector around to Loc intercept for long, straight, steady ILS.

Or, of course, fly on over to the VMC you noted the location of, and loaded fuel sufficient to reach, prior to departure.
 
That is an excellent and highly relevant article, thanks for posting.
 
Jeff S KDTW said:
He response was, "Where are you going in the checklist to get the landing gear down?" "Emergency Procedures", was my answer. "Exactly. If it is in the Emergency Procedures section, it ~is~ an emergency and you should declare it."
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...Interestingly, some airplane types would, then, NEVER have an emergency, because they're all "abnormals".

I'll agree with you, Bruce, Ron, et al, who say that it's pretty much up to the pilot as to whether something constitutes an emergency or not, although one operator I flew for had a policy that we would declare an emergency for an engine failure or shutdown if there were less than 2 engines left afterwards. My personal philosophy is that I will declare an emergency under one (or both) of the following conditions:

1. Somebody can provide assistance if I do so, be it fire trucks or ambulances rolling rapidly, ATC clearing everybody else out of the area, stuff like that.

2. I feel there's a good possibility that I may have to deviate from regulatory or procedural requirements.

There's a lot of leeway for pilot judgment in #2 as well, obviously.

I have declared an emergency twice. The first one was when a Falcon 10 engine lived up to its "Garrett Grenade" reputation. The airplane didn't stop shaking until we were clear of the runway, and I don't think that was because WE were all shaking ;)

The second was a triple failure in a Hawker...When the generator failed, the checklist said "FIDO". When the hydraulic system went dry, we didn't like the combination, and declared an emergency to get ourselves down quick. Fortunately, the fire detection loop on that engine failed the same day, so it didn't actually tell us about the fire. :eek:

Otherwise, the situations I've encountered (including engine failures and system malfunctions) were either cases where no one could provide any assistance because due to lack of time, proximity, or radios, so no emergency was declared; or it simply wasn't severe enough to warrant more than a "we have a problem, would like some priority handling" type of urgency.

Fly safe!

David
 
MauleSkinner said:
...Interestingly, some airplane types would, then, NEVER have an emergency, because they're all "abnormals".
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At the risk of quibbling, saying "any time you go to the EP section it's an emergency" is not the same as saying if it's not labeled "Emergency" it's not an emergency.
 
Ron Levy said:
At the risk of quibbling, saying "any time you go to the EP section it's an emergency" is not the same as saying if it's not labeled "Emergency" it's not an emergency.
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Now you're getting into "risk management"... ;)

True, however.

Fly safe!

David
 
Patch said:
...I speak only as a GA pilot. Whether or not I tell ATC of what's going on depends on whether I think they can add anything useful to the situation.
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Unless you are a fully trained and qualified controller you can't possibly know what ATC can and cannot usefully add to the situation. Good CRM--use every resource available--including appraising yourself of the available options.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
Unless you are a fully trained and qualified controller you can't possibly know what ATC can and cannot usefully add to the situation. Good CRM--use every resource available--including appraising yourself of the available options.
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I don't need to be a fully trained and qualified controller to know what I need in my cockpit during an EP, and whether the added distraction of talking to someone will help me or take away brain bytes I could be using on the situation.
 
I see it Patch's way, but then again I'd say ... if there's any doubt in your mind, declare!

p.s. if you're someone like me, RAM management isn't something to take lightly ..... :)
 
Patch said:
I don't need to be a fully trained and qualified controller to know what I need in my cockpit during an EP, and whether the added distraction of talking to someone will help me or take away brain bytes I could be using on the situation.
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You still seem to believe a pilot in distress is put into a more distressing situation by getting help.

There does not need to be added distraction. The only communication not directly aimed at getting out of the situation is/was setting a transponder code. Certainly there are times and situations where even that is a dangerous distraction. A simple "unable" ought to settle the matter.
 
I'm not sure I posted in any of these threads.

There was nothing wrong with Peggy declaring an emergency and only she can judge if it was necessary. If I would have been watching the situation and had a button to push that would declare for her. I would have been pushing it about the same time she did.
 
Chas said:
I see it Patch's way, but then again I'd say ... if there's any doubt in your mind, declare!

p.s. if you're someone like me, RAM management isn't something to take lightly ..... :)
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Like many things in aviation there's no single answer to the thread topic's question. I do think that declaring an emergency and/or seeking ATC's assistance is both underused (pilots avoiding out of fear for reprisal and or lack of understanding what ATC can offer) and misused (pilots calling for help when ATC cannot do much and they really just need to fly the airplane).

But I see no harm in declaring when in any kind of airborne trouble. If the response is more distracting than helpful, just turn the radio volume down or tell ATC to stand by.
 
lancefisher said:
Like many things in aviation there's no single answer to the thread topic's question.
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No kidding. I don't know what people are expecting, some kind of flowchart or list describing when you should declare an emergency and when you should not? There are too many variables, the pilot, the airplane, the weather, the situation, etc. Do what is necessary to get on the ground safely and don't worry about what other people are going to say.
 
What's the big deal here? The worst thing that can happen to the controller is he falls off his chair
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Some of those chairs are pretty high!!!


or misses the last donut in the break room.
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No worries here, the last donut is usually one no one wants anyway, and never the less been handled quite a bit. Missing the first one, on the other hand....


Whether or not you declare an emergency, the controller can and often times does, declare one for you. There are also lots of times we give pilots special handling without actually using the "e" word with the intent of keeping it from becoming an emergency situation.

Controllers do have a checklist of sorts to follow when dealing with an emergency, however we will, at times, modify and/or eliminate the list if we think it un-necessary or distracting. Certainly YOU can modify or eliminate the list if YOU find it distracting. Just tell us you're too busy to compile the requested information and just tell us what you can, when you can. Keeping in mind that there may never be a time when you can. Sometimes the checklist can really help. Suppose you have been wandering around for a while before you contact ATC to tell them you aren't sure where you are. Our asking you how much fuel you have might press you to discover that you have quite a bit less than you had thought.

As for any fear of copious amounts of paperwork after the fact. I don't ever remember hearing about anyone in ATC contacting a pilot for any reason, after they declared an emergency and safely landed. The Fire Department may ask a few questions, but it is probably just so they can include your incident in their justification for more and better equipment. Now, if you scream on the frequency that you are declaring an emergency because you have smoke in the cockpit, no gear down indication, minimum fuel and two sick passengers, then proceed to taxi your C152 to the far side of the field to be first in line for the pancake breakfast, you just might be requested to give the tower a call, not to mention a pilot lounge counselling session with all the pilots you beat to the head of the line.

Usually if a controller has an emergency situation, whether declared or not, they will get quite a bit of help from co-workers in order to provide as much help as they can to the pilot. Controllers understand that the pilot is in command and determines what happens next. If you don't want to change frequencies, the controller is not supposed to force the issue (unless, I suppose, you are in danger of leaving their area of frequency coverage). We generally have at least one spare frequency, besides 121.5 at our disposal, and can switch every other aircraft to the spare to dedicate the current frequency to your situation.

If the response is more distracting than helpful, just turn the radio volume down
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Please don't do this. Besides the stress added to the controller because he thinks that yet another problem has been added to this scenario, you may forget to turn it back up when you decide you want to chat with ATC once again. Now you will think you have a radio failure in addition to whatever else went wrong.

or tell ATC to stand by.
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This is far preferable. Call us when you can with updates. Let us know what you need/want.
 
Everskyward said:
No kidding. I don't know what people are expecting, some kind of flowchart or list describing when you should declare an emergency and when you should not?
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I've got that flowchart, but I'd probably get kicked off POA if I posted it ;)

Fly safe!

David
 
mdreger said:
Please don't do this. Besides the stress added to the controller because he thinks that yet another problem has been added to this scenario, you may forget to turn it back up when you decide you want to chat with ATC once again. Now you will think you have a radio failure in addition to whatever else went wrong.
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Normally I'd agree with you about turning the radio volume down, but I've read transcripts of accidents where ATC kept pestering the pilot with the litany of SOB, FOB etc even after it was obvious the pilot's main problem was keeping the airplane right side up. Granted such a lousy performance by a controller is likely quite rare, but since is has happend, not rare enough. I think I posted that bit of advice in response to someone else who expressed concern about getting distracted by ATC in response to declaring and my intention was to show that in case ATC does become a handicap, the volume knob on the radio will surely solve that particular issue.
 
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