What do you folks think about the Icon A5

Dav8or said:
You run with strange people. That is for sure. You vision of the world has been warped. However, this airplane will sell to many that are not billionaires and just mere millionaires and they will not have yachts and they will not be outside the country, but at their local lake with loads of their people on hand to spectate. I predict it won't be pretty. Only time will tell which of us is right.

Bottom line is, this is not created to be an airplane to make new pilots, but rather it has been created as, how the Hawaiian authorities call Jet Skis, a "Thrill Craft" for non pilots with lot of money to impress their friends with a toy others don't have. Unfortunately, it is many magnitudes more dangerous than the Jet Ski.
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My vision isn't warped, it's complete.:rofl: The basic millionaire isn't going to treat this as a "Thrill machine". The basic millionaire is afraid of dying, and probably has their kid next to them. That and the training required to fly one precludes most of that activity from a newbie. Remember, most of the millionaires that are buying one have had a pilot's license for a long time.

The attraction of this vs a Supercub is simple, it is composite/non-corrosive, and can be trailered easily behind the RV or pick up.

Will there be some "Watch this!" accidents? Yes, but there is no shortage of them today, or through the entire history of aviation.
 
Henning said:
My vision isn't warped, it's complete.:rofl: The basic millionaire isn't going to treat this as a "Thrill machine". The basic millionaire is afraid of dying, and probably has their kid next to them. That and the training required to fly one precludes most of that activity from a newbie. Remember, most of the millionaires that are buying one have had a pilot's license for a long time.

The attraction of this vs a Supercub is simple, it is composite/non-corrosive, and can be trailered easily behind the RV or pick up.

Will there be some "Watch this!" accidents? Yes, but there is no shortage of them today, or through the entire history of aviation.
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No doubt that many A5 operators will do so responsibly and safely with no accidents. I'm just saying that this plane and the way it is being marketed will end up being the Cirrus SR-22 of the LSA world with a higher than average accident rate due largely to the type of people that will buy it, that and of course amphibians have challenges all their own.

I really don't have the hate on for the plane, I think it's pretty neat. I'm just sayin'.
 
Dav8or said:
No doubt that many A5 operators will do so responsibly and safely with no accidents. I'm just saying that this plane and the way it is being marketed will end up being the Cirrus SR-22 of the LSA world with a higher than average accident rate due largely to the type of people that will buy it, that and of course amphibians have challenges all their own.

I really don't have the hate on for the plane, I think it's pretty neat. I'm just sayin'.
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Except the Cirrus doesn't have an abnormally high accident rate. They have an accident rate that corresponds to their abnormally high sales rate.
 
I like the concept.
 
Dav8or said:
Really?? Which one of these do you think is more attractive to a non pilot that wants a cool water toy to impress his friends?

Option 1

piper-supercub.jpg


or, Option 2

attachment.php
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Lol "Speed?" How fast is an Icon? Not that fast, right? 100hp?
 
Both about the same speed.

image.jpg


Just saying, anyone who spends 5 minutes on a google search on their new 200k "hold my beer and watch this" toy is going to get the cub.


Forget floats, how bout this demographic.

Knik_post.jpg



If someone wants to blow big bucks for a plane well outside of their capabilities, the icon is rather tame, there's been far more capable aircraft out for some time.

The icon just has folding wings and a few other features, not a game changer, not a plane that's going to attract risk more than any backcountry ship or high speed lawn darter.
 
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James331 said:
Both about the same speed.

Just saying, anyone who spends 5 minutes on a google search on their new 200k "hold my beer and watch this" toy is going to get the cub.


Forget floats, how bout this demographic.

Knik_post.jpg



If someone wants to blow big bucks for a plane well outside of their capabilities, the icon is rather tame, there's been far more capable aircraft out for some time.

The icon just has folding wings and a few other features, not a game changer, not a plane that's going to attract risk more than any backcountry ship or high speed lawn darter.
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But the folding wing thing is huge, which transforms it to something you can keep in your garage or driveway vs. at an airport. In fact, you aren't even tied to an airport except for land ops. Without that feature, the Icon would be fairly lame.
 
Gotta agree about the folding wing deal. In the microcosm of GA and amphib ops, it is a game changer. Surely not on the level of the gas turbine engine for comm ops, but for this particular market, folding wings is huge.

I'm no expert on the whole deal but I recall some of the weight shedding was removal of the auto-wing fold option. It would have been cool beans to motor up to the dock, and begin folding the wings back as you begin to dock the plane. As it is now, I think the whole deal is manual but still very, very beneficial. Wings and docking is an age-old clash. The bonus of parking it in your garage, and driving out to the local airport is another notch in the gun belt. It's not an option that I would have left on the drawing board, and Icon did the smart thing in keeping at least the manual wing fold.
 
I just watched the video on AoA because I saw it on one of the mock-ups and after watching the vid, I have to say, this is another mini-game changer. I wish that AoA was required equipment in all GA planes, and that retrofit solutions were avail at a reasonable cost.

It's a tool that will help reduce stall-spin across the board, and it boggles that more GA pilots don't have it, like me. The only thing I might do different, is to include a blaring stall horn up at the high AoA for people with their head outside where it belongs. However, it's nice to have the big fat gauge right there in the easy scan location.

Well decided and well executed, and I'm guessing one of the reasons that the plane took so darn long to make it to production.
 
docmirror said:
I just watched the video on AoA because I saw it on one of the mock-ups and after watching the vid, I have to say, this is another mini-game changer. I wish that AoA was required equipment in all GA planes, and that retrofit solutions were avail at a reasonable cost.

It's a tool that will help reduce stall-spin across the board, and it boggles that more GA pilots don't have it, like me. The only thing I might do different, is to include a blaring stall horn up at the high AoA for people with their head outside where it belongs. However, it's nice to have the big fat gauge right there in the easy scan location.

Well decided and well executed, and I'm guessing one of the reasons that the plane took so darn long to make it to production.
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AOA on a two seater is a game changer :goofy:

Basic spin training early on in training, and throughout your flying life will help far more than a AOA. On small planes it's kinda silly, if you can see your ASI and feel what a little plane is going to do, don't know to step on the high wing of things get sporty, well...
 
James331 said:
AOA on a two seater is a game changer :goofy:

Basic spin training early on in training, and throughout your flying life will help far more than a AOA. On small planes it's kinda silly, if you can see your ASI and feel what a little plane is going to do, don't know to step on the high wing of things get sporty, well...
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^^^^ future stall-spin statistic. ^^^^

Bring back spin training. That killed a bunch of young pilots, and some CFI too. BTW, I learned in a Citabria back in the 70s, and my logbook is full of spins.

Not sure why an AoA that directly shows lift reserve is silly, but of course the ASI is a better indicator of stall. Uh-huh, sure, cuz planes only stall down there at the bottom red line of course. Group-think, low speed = stall. :mad2:
 
Sac Arrow said:
But the folding wing thing is huge, which transforms it to something you can keep in your garage or driveway vs. at an airport...
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Glastar, Kitfox and several others have folding wings but I honestly have never seen one kept in a garage. For the Icon I could see the point of folding wings for a straight seaplane (which would have saved weight, complexity and cost) but for an amphib it's kind of redundant- other than those rare customers in Henning's world who are going to carry an Icon on their yacht.
 
docmirror said:
I just watched the video on AoA because I saw it on one of the mock-ups and after watching the vid, I have to say, this is another mini-game changer. I wish that AoA was required equipment in all GA planes, and that retrofit solutions were avail at a reasonable cost.

It's a tool that will help reduce stall-spin across the board, and it boggles that more GA pilots don't have it, like me. The only thing I might do different, is to include a blaring stall horn up at the high AoA for people with their head outside where it belongs. However, it's nice to have the big fat gauge right there in the easy scan location.

Well decided and well executed, and I'm guessing one of the reasons that the plane took so darn long to make it to production.
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AoA is nice, but not really a game changer. It does make slick landings easier to hit, but stall spin is going to happen regardless unless it's hooked up to a stick pusher. Planes already tell you before they stall, one more thing telling them won't make a person react. The AoA is nifty for a day or two as you correlate feel with hard data as it tells you what you pretty knew about how it feels with how much margin left.

After that it's kind of a novelty, however it does help you judge your speed on final/vs weight in real time, so hitting your correct approach trim is really easy. As an aid to making nice landings every time including when loaded at unusual for you parameters, it's nice to have.
 
docmirror said:
I wish that AoA was required equipment in all GA planes, and that retrofit solutions were avail at a reasonable cost.

It's a tool that will help reduce stall-spin across the board...
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I'm a big fan of AOA in the cockpit, but it's also important that pilots be trained in the proper interpretation and use of the indication. I think that's a much bigger issue than the indicator itself ;)

Nauga,
who will keep his opinions on the state of training to himself - for now
 
Silvaire said:
Glastar, Kitfox and several others have folding wings but I honestly have never seen one kept in a garage. For the Icon I could see the point of folding wings for a straight seaplane (which would have saved weight, complexity and cost) but for an amphib it's kind of redundant- other than those rare customers in Henning's world who are going to carry an Icon on their yacht.
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The Icon can also tow in a trailer. No ability to land on land doesn't work well.
 
nauga said:
I'm a big fan of AOA in the cockpit, but it's also important that pilots be trained in the proper interpretation and use of the indication. I think that's a much bigger issue than the indicator itself ;)

Nauga,
who will keep his opinions on the state of training to himself - for now
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Please, spend a few min and watch the vid.

http://iconaircraft.com/news/a5-angle-of-attack-system/

I think you might like it. Looks to me like a good CFI could cover this topic in 15 min ground, and 20 min air. Like many things on the Icon, it's rather elegant.
 
docmirror said:
Please, spend a few min and watch the vid.

http://iconaircraft.com/news/a5-angle-of-attack-system/

I think you might like it. Looks to me like a good CFI could cover this topic in 15 min ground, and 20 min air. Like many things on the Icon, it's rather elegant.
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Yeah, what I was saying. I think they over sell it a bit, and the one I like best was a vertical strip of LEDs that was on the window post right in the edge of my view.
 
docmirror said:
I just watched the video on AoA because I saw it on one of the mock-ups and after watching the vid, I have to say, this is another mini-game changer. I wish that AoA was required equipment in all GA planes, and that retrofit solutions were avail at a reasonable cost.
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They are pretty damn affordable. There are some available for about $400-500 plus install. Even the really nice ones are about $1200 which for airplanes is pretty affordable. I intend to install one next year I think.

I agree with you and believe that all new planes being produced should have them. I don't know if I'd go as far as to mandate them, but manufacturers should either make them standard, or at least a factory installed option.
 
About 6 years ago Erin Dornier had his "S Ray" at Oshkosh.

The Icon boys were all over it with their tape measures!
 
Silvaire said:
Glastar, Kitfox and several others have folding wings but I honestly have never seen one kept in a garage. For the Icon I could see the point of folding wings for a straight seaplane (which would have saved weight, complexity and cost) but for an amphib it's kind of redundant- other than those rare customers in Henning's world who are going to carry an Icon on their yacht.
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I agree. Folding and/or removable wings is not new and other than gliders, I have never seen anyone trailer their plane to the airport, unfold it and fly away. The RV-12 has this feature, but everybody I've seen just keeps them at the airport in a hangar, or on a tie down like everybody else. I think the bottom line is, most people don't have room at home for a huge trailer and plane that likely won't fit in a standard garage, so they have to go rent space for it somewhere and the best place for that is the airport.
 
Henning said:
AoA is nice, but not really a game changer. It does make slick landings easier to hit, but stall spin is going to happen regardless unless it's hooked up to a stick pusher. Planes already tell you before they stall, one more thing telling them won't make a person react. The AoA is nifty for a day or two as you correlate feel with hard data as it tells you what you pretty knew about how it feels with how much margin left.

After that it's kind of a novelty, however it does help you judge your speed on final/vs weight in real time, so hitting your correct approach trim is really easy. As an aid to making nice landings every time including when loaded at unusual for you parameters, it's nice to have.
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And that's pretty useful. People can stop adding 5 extra knots for grandma and ending up skidding off the end of the runway. I disagree that it's just a novelty and of no value for stall prevention. Obviously the airplane "talking t you" and the usual stall warning horn have only been partially successful.

A properly installed AoA indicator, up on the glare shield in you line of sight out the window and no buried in the panel somewhere, combined with audio voice alerts IMO can be a game changer. If you just buy the cheap ones with no audio, no lights and then stick it in the panel as just another gauge, yeah it's then of limited value.
 
Dav8or said:
They are pretty damn affordable. There are some available for about $400-500 plus install. Even the really nice ones are about $1200 which for airplanes is pretty affordable. I intend to install one next year I think.

I agree with you and believe that all new planes being produced should have them. I don't know if I'd go as far as to mandate them, but manufacturers should either make them standard, or at least a factory installed option.
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For cert planes? The lowest price I had seen before was about $1400 plus install. Maybe I should go back and have another look. At $500 plus install with my A&P watching, that's doable. Thx.
 
Dav8or said:
And that's pretty useful. People can stop adding 5 extra knots for grandma and ending up skidding off the end of the runway. I disagree that it's just a novelty and of no value for stall prevention. Obviously the airplane "talking t you" and the usual stall warning horn have only been partially successful.

A properly installed AoA indicator, up on the glare shield in you line of sight out the window and no buried in the panel somewhere, combined with audio voice alerts IMO can be a game changer. If you just buy the cheap ones with no audio, no lights and then stick it in the panel as just another gauge, yeah it's then of limited value.
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All the information in the world will change nothing when the pilot is sitting there frozen. What is always ignored in this stuff is the pilot's reaction to the situation they are in. Not everyone keeps functioning when faced with an end of life situation, some people just disconnect from it. They will die regardless if they have an AoA or not in a stall spin situation.

Where it would have an effect on the accident rate is the "loss of control on the runway" accidents which far out number the stall spin scenario. It's those extra 5-10 kts people carry on final that are the cause of most of them, because that's where bounce comes from.
 
docmirror said:
Please, spend a few min and watch the vid.

http://iconaircraft.com/news/a5-angle-of-attack-system/

I think you might like it. Looks to me like a good CFI could cover this topic in 15 min ground, and 20 min air. Like many things on the Icon, it's rather elegant.
Click to expand...
Slick video, and I agree with the concepts. I do take issue with the statement "Angle of attack has never been presented to pilots in clear terms..." but maybe I've just flown different airplanes ;)

It's not that difficult to come up with a good AOA presentation(*), and maybe you're right, that a CFI could teach it in 15 minutes, but what's missing is the proficiency aspect. Pilots who don't learn to live by AOA and train with it (I'm talking practice and proficiency, not just with a CFI) aren't much better off than without it. A representative quote re: AOA in the cockpit from an industry symposium on loss of control, spoken in exasperation and paraphrased here, "We'd love to require AOA in every cockpit if we could figure out how to convince pilots to use it!"

Personally I'd love an E-bracket in the HUD, indexers on the glareshield, and a gauge with approach AOA at 3 o'clock, but I'm probably not going to get at least one of them.

(*) It's also apparently pretty easy to come up with a bad one (not in ref to Icon) :rolleyes:

Nauga,
from the days of gauges in units
 
Dav8or said:
I agree. Folding and/or removable wings is not new and other than gliders, I have never seen anyone trailer their plane to the airport, unfold it and fly away. The RV-12 has this feature, but everybody I've seen just keeps them at the airport in a hangar, or on a tie down like everybody else. I think the bottom line is, most people don't have room at home for a huge trailer and plane that likely won't fit in a standard garage, so they have to go rent space for it somewhere and the best place for that is the airport.
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This sounds like what people do with RV's and Boats. I would be the "Coolest" guy in the neighborhood with an airplane in my garage (IMO). People would want to see it and ask questions. Might be a good marketing tool!
 
For that money u can get a waaaay more amphibious airplane any day of the week, just a dream fart concept, and we have to be realistic we have enough stupid people with more money than brains to buy one of those. U can get searay super max out glass all the goodies on it for a fraction, and searays numbers are pretty close.
I'm seeing this company going down In 3/5 years will revisit this post In 3/5 yrs
 
How much plane could I afford if I could store it in my yard? A lot more than if I'm paying 5, 6, 800 a month for a hangar.

I think this is a cool plane and I am happy to see that they actually made it this far.
 
BTW, the first one was given to the EAA Young Eagles program.
 
docmirror said:
Please, spend a few min and watch the vid.

http://iconaircraft.com/news/a5-angle-of-attack-system/

I think you might like it. Looks to me like a good CFI could cover this topic in 15 min ground, and 20 min air. Like many things on the Icon, it's rather elegant.
Click to expand...

Good video,

I must say though, I've seen airplanes have AOA gauges already so it's not ground breaking. I like the video and I like the plane. A lot of people said that Cirrus wouldn't make it when it first came out and it's still here and it's also one of the highest selling airplanes going right now. This looks like a fun airplane and although it doesn't fit my missions, (Destinations with passengers and bags). I wouldn't mind taking one up in the future as a rental.

Angle of attack,

I know there is a gauge in the A5 but isn't it true that most people that come across a stall are either trying to do it on purpose, (Fairly difficult to stall most planes without trying) Trying to avoid something, (Obstacle or another airplane) or is having some sort of maintenance issue? How would that gauge help in those situations?

I believe that the AOA gauge is useful because you can experiment how the plane feels when at stall speed or close to it.

What do you folks think?
 
red4golf said:
How much plane could I afford if I could store it in my yard? A lot more than if I'm paying 5, 6, 800 a month for a hangar.

I think this is a cool plane and I am happy to see that they actually made it this far.
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Me too!! :yes::yes:
 
FastEddieB said:
I'd say accident stats show that is demonstrably untrue.
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Yeah, but it doesn't really nullify the point/effect. Most people that end up in a stall are already ignoring both airspeed and tactile indications of imminent stall, so will an AoA actually have an effect in that demographic? Personally I agree that the AoA's primary benefit is in training; learning the real feel of the plane at the margins of the envelope and knowing how much reserve you still have left. Knowing that feel by nature rather than having always flown "65 on final" is what's going to reduce the stall accident rate if it does so.
 
Henning said:
All the information in the world will change nothing when the pilot is sitting there frozen. What is always ignored in this stuff is the pilot's reaction to the situation they are in. Not everyone keeps functioning when faced with an end of life situation, some people just disconnect from it. They will die regardless if they have an AoA or not in a stall spin situation.



Where it would have an effect on the accident rate is the "loss of control on the runway" accidents which far out number the stall spin scenario. It's those extra 5-10 kts people carry on final that are the cause of most of them, because that's where bounce comes from.
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This is a great point. The closest I have ever been to a crash was when I bounced a LSA and it started porpoising on me. And it was all because I was way too fast on final.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Henning said:
Yeah, but it doesn't really nullify the point/effect. Most people that end up in a stall are already ignoring both airspeed and tactile indications of imminent stall, so will an AoA actually have an effect in that demographic? Personally I agree that the AoA's primary benefit is in training; learning the real feel of the plane at the margins of the envelope and knowing how much reserve you still have left. Knowing that feel by nature rather than having always flown "65 on final" is what's going to reduce the stall accident rate if it does so.
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^^^^ This is actually what I meant,

Improvement in stick and rudder skills and airspeed management
are the two things that will cut into the accident rates.
 
RalphInCA said:
This is a great point. The closest I have ever been to a crash was when I bounced a LSA and it started porpoising on me. And it was all because I was way too fast on final.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Well, speed had nothing to do with your PIO, your porpoising came from a rookie mistake of pushing the stick forward after your flare.

One can bring a plane in at VNE and never porpoise, you won't touchdown ether, but PIO are not a result of incorrect speed, just blatantly incorrect technique.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, but it doesn't really nullify the point/effect. Most people that end up in a stall are already ignoring both airspeed and tactile indications of imminent stall, so will an AoA actually have an effect in that demographic? ...
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I agree. Crashes of this nature are usually not simply stalls but are stall/spin incidents which means control coordination is all jacked up as well. The pilot is completely distracted by something, often on the ground such as friends waving at you from their backyard or an overshot runway on base to final turn. In these cases an AOA indicator would be right along side the A/S and traditional stall warning as a device not being watched or heeded at the time.
 
James331 said:
Well, speed had nothing to do with your PIO, your porpoising came from a rookie mistake of pushing the stick forward after your flare.

One can bring a plane in at VNE and never porpoise, you won't touchdown ether, but PIO are not a result of incorrect speed, just blatantly incorrect technique.
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Right, it's when you try to put the plane on the runway before it's done flying that you have problems; but from there speed has everything to do with just how ugly it's going to get.:lol:
 
Silvaire said:
I agree. Crashes of this nature are usually not simply stalls but are stall/spin incidents which means control coordination is all jacked up as well. The pilot is completely distracted by something, often on the ground such as friends waving at you from their backyard or an overshot runway on base to final turn. In these cases an AOA indicator would be right along side the A/S and traditional stall warning as a device not being watched or heeded at the time.
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That's why I think the AoA indicator is most useful when it has the audio voice alerts feature. People can block out gauges, lights, buzzers, horns, etc, but when words are being spoken it can get through. Is it 100%? No, some will still crash, but it will save some who will otherwise ignore airspeed indicators, buffeting and stall horns.

Those who buy the basic AoA are getting a useful tool to aid in landing, and performance take offs. Those who buy the more advanced AoAs with voice alerts are getting the same useful tool and a useful safety device.
 
No, people who are disconnected will ignore it just fine. It'll be like watching a movie with a self destruct timer counting down. They'll just "eat popcorn" all the way in. The AoA is a great tool, but it will have little to no affect on the stall spin accident scene with or without voice.
 
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