What do you folks think about the Icon A5

[Shepherd]

NY is great for seaplanes, lots of places to land outside of drinking water reservoirs and whatnot.

DEC puts out tons of great contour maps too

Yes a very good source.
Years ago I asked a friend of mine (a local politician who later became governor) Why particular lakes (Lake Oscawana and Mahopac) had been closed down to use by seaplanes.
His answer: "Get enough rich people around a lake, and everything that disturbs them gets shut down."
That answer works for most aviation questions of that sort.

 

[N2124v]

With a seaplane you don't look pervy telling the girls "bring your bikini's and we'll go flying". That's got to be worth something?

 

[Dav8or]

You aren't thinking yacht, you're thinking boat. The A5 has been a long awaited yacht toy. The guys buying them are paying twice that for their tender boats carried on (or beneath) the yacht's deck. There are the Seabob HP sleds that cost more and just drag you through the water fast. They'll hire an instructor to double as a deckhand if they don't already hold a rating, which many do.

Here's the problem I see with the "yacht toy" use of this plane- It's not a part 23 certified airplane, therefore, it's airworthiness certificate is not recognized anywhere but in the US. I may be wrong, but I don't believe this plane will be legal to fly in many of the sorts of places that yacht owners typically like to anchor. On the other hand, I guessing if you have that kind of money, you can get away with flipping the bird to the local authorities.

 

[James331]

With a seaplane you don't look pervy telling the girls "bring your bikini's and we'll go flying". That's got to be worth something?

So true.

 

[Henning]

Here's the problem I see with the "yacht toy" use of this plane- It's not a part 23 certified airplane, therefore, it's airworthiness certificate is not recognized anywhere but in the US. I may be wrong, but I don't believe this plane will be legal to fly in many of the sorts of places that yacht owners typically like to anchor. On the other hand, I guessing if you have that kind of money, you can get away with flipping the bird to the local authorities.

Paint T/T ***** on the side. With enough money, you don't flip off local authority, you buy off local authority.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Very, very cool! Just wish the useful load were a tad higher. With two "American" men and a bit of luggage, you're over gross, especially if you need to take fuel also.

Also, $200K puts you in great condition Cirrus SR22 territory...4 adults, 170 - 180 knots, a s&^%load of avionics.

Still, that's an unfair comparison. I love it and I want one NOW.

 

[Sac Arrow]

At $50-100K, I'd buy one in a heartbeat. But with 430 lbs useful weight and at over $200K (plus 9.25% tax, hi California!), no thanks.

Same here, but it's going to need to be well under $50K for me to bite. I like it though.

 

[Henning]

Same here, but it's going to need to be well under $50K for me to bite. I like it though.

Unless they turn out to be real garbage, it will be a long time before you find one for less than $50k, or some revolution in power that makes quad copters a reality. Even an Avid Catalina brings $40k for a decent one.

 

[MSPAviator]

Sadly, I'm not in the tax bracket to afford either, but I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Lisa Akoya yet. The wave piercing hydrofoil design actually lets you step taxi and the wings power fold/unfold. If I could afford either plane, it'd be the Akoya.

 

[petrolero]

$200k for an LSA? Nope.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Unless they turn out to be real garbage, it will be a long time before you find one for less than $50k, or some revolution in power that makes quad copters a reality. Even an Avid Catalina brings $40k for a decent one.

Understood, I'm sure they can't afford to make them for that.

 

[Henning]

Understood, I'm sure they can't afford to make them for that.

The power plant package is likely close to $30k.

 

[skippers]

Markets confusing, cannot "give away" my Lake Renegade, Certified 6 place, carries more load, is faster, Avidyne Suite for a few more shekels than a new Icon. Guess the sport pilot appeal is what is going to sell them.

 

[happypilot876]

Markets confusing, cannot "give away" my Lake Renegade, Certified 6 place, carries more load, is faster, Avidyne Suite for a few more shekels than a new Icon. Guess the sport pilot appeal is what is going to sell them.

Forgive me for drifting this thread, but how would one get 6 people into a Renegade? 3-across bench seats? Every pic I've ever been able to find of a Renegade has 2 front, 2 back seats.

Thanks,

-Josh

 

[Henning]

Markets confusing, cannot "give away" my Lake Renegade, Certified 6 place, carries more load, is faster, Avidyne Suite for a few more shekels than a new Icon. Guess the sport pilot appeal is what is going to sell them.

The folding wing is what sells them. I haven't seen a Renegade with a "give away" price on it yet.

 

[SkyDog58]

Markets confusing, cannot "give away" my Lake Renegade, Certified 6 place, carries more load, is faster, Avidyne Suite for a few more shekels than a new Icon. Guess the sport pilot appeal is what is going to sell them.

I would be much more likely to buy a reasonably priced Renegade than an Icon just because of the extra capabilities such as higher useful load. I have never flown either so until I do, I can not bee 100% certain but my gut tells me I'd go for the Renegade.

I'm not in the market right now but you have my curiosity, do you have one listed for sale?

 

[FastEddieB]

I would be much more likely to buy a reasonably priced Renegade than an Icon...

And be locked into "medical roulette" every couple/few years. A gamble where failure may end a flying career.

With the aging pilot population, this is no small deal.

That alone will steer some towards the Icon and away from the Renegade.

 

[Silvaire]

The Icon is a flying jet ski. If it were priced at a point where the typical jet ski owner could afford it it would surely win the Darwin Award.

 

[Henning]

I'm in the market to have a Renegade given to me.

 

[SkyDog58]

And be locked into "medical roulette" every couple/few years. A gamble where failure may end a flying career.

With the aging pilot population, this is no small deal.

That alone will steer some towards the Icon and away from the Renegade.

Oh no doubt and for the person with a questionable or no medical who wants an amphib, the Icon is a great option. I was just speaking for myself at my current medical condition and with the type of flying I'd like to do with a seaplane.

 

[FastEddieB]

Oh no doubt and for the person with a questionable or no medical who wants an amphib, the Icon is a great option.

We're on the same page then.

Too bad, I was hoping for an argument!

 

[docmirror]

Markets confusing, cannot "give away" my Lake Renegade, Certified 6 place, carries more load, is faster, Avidyne Suite for a few more shekels than a new Icon. Guess the sport pilot appeal is what is going to sell them.

This is kinda what I mentioned about a narrow market. Planes - limited market. Amphib planes - even much smaller market. 2 place, LSA, expensive, amphib planes - micro market.

 

[Henning]

This is kinda what I mentioned about a narrow market. Planes - limited market. Amphib planes - even much smaller market. 2 place, LSA, expensive, amphib planes - micro market.

Niche market yes, micro market, compared to cars yes, compared to a Cirrus, nope.

 

[FastEddieB]

For perspective, in the U.S. alone, one in a million is still a market of over 300 Icons!

 

[Henning]

For perspective, in the U.S. alone, one in a million is still a market of over 300 Icons!

There are over 1850 billionaires.

 

[docmirror]

For perspective, in the U.S. alone, one in a million is still a market of over 300 Icons!

Nice start. Now, how many pilots out of that? How many of those pilots need/want LSA? I think we're down near low double digits.

 

[Henning]

Nice start. Now, how many pilots out of that? How many of those pilots need/want LSA? I think we're down near low double digits.

I put the market at over 300, even more if they prove out as fun to buzz around the lake, coast, or island house. Something for the kids.... Perfect for booze runs to town.

 

[skippers]

Forgive me for drifting this thread, but how would one get 6 people into a Renegade? 3-across bench seats? Every pic I've ever been able to find of a Renegade has 2 front, 2 back seats.

Thanks,

-Josh

Yes there is a bench seat behind the two rear seats, for small folk, not really practical that is why they are taken out in almost all the renegades. Also with 6 folks cannot really carrying any gas. Use to carry my Wife and 4 kids till they were older than about 10.

 

[Henning]

Yes there is a bench seat behind the two rear seats, for small folk, not really practical that is why they are taken out in almost all the renegades. Also with 6 folks cannot really carrying any gas. Use to carry my Wife and 4 kids till they were older than about 10.

What's the useful load of that vs a Bucaneer?

 

[James331]

The Icon is a flying jet ski. If it were priced at a point where the typical jet ski owner could afford it it would surely win the Darwin Award.

So is my 185.

Most of it's life it's 2 people, a tiny dog and some stuff, yeah it's nice to have the ability to go full heavy hauler, but for many folks it's just not nesscary.

The A5 is 2 place amphib, like very updated citabria, cub, hopped up 150, etc, nothing wrong with that. And frankly out of the other 2 seat amphibs, the only one that does a decent job of pulling it off are the supercubs and supercub clones. Plus some of the advancements on the A5 are great, the folding wings, the accidential gear down tuffness, visability etc, and 105kts at 5.2GPH kicks the butt of most of the other amphibs out there, sure beats my 15GPH

My only qualm about the A5 is that car dashboard, I know they are trying to bring folks into aviation, that layout just doesn't work well in a plane IMO.

For folks who are a hard on for a "new" plane, you'd get much more enjoyment out of a A5 then a SR22, C172, or many of the other new offerings.

Once you fly a amphib you look at landing as a very open question, having the ability to land at a huge international airport just as easily as a remote lake is something you have to do to understand.

 

[SkyDog58]

We're on the same page then.

Too bad, I was hoping for an argument!

Contrary to the impression I might have given on a couple threads, I'm not here to be disagreeable or provoke arguments though I might push back a little hard at times and can be rather opinionated on certain subjects.

 

[Dav8or]

The Icon is a flying jet ski. If it were priced at a point where the typical jet ski owner could afford it it would surely win the Darwin Award.

I like it. I wish they had a "pilot's" version with a real panel, but I like it.

I agree with you that this plane will keep the NTSB very busy if it sells well. It screams out for low level buzz jobs and lots of "Hey, check this out!" kind of flying. Icon is marketing to this very person. Handing it to them on a platter. Be the big show at the lake.

I have been an avid Jet Skier and supporter of PWCs for just going on 20 years now and I can tell you that the Jet Ski community is about like the motorcycle community. There are lots of responsible owners that never have any accidents and then there are the loose cannons, folks with a death wish and people that are just plain stupid.

Selling airplanes to these communities is just asking for trouble. If the A5 becomes popular, it will not bring a favorable light on GA amongst the general population. I'm kind of hoping they will make a small number, go bankrupt, stop production and when people are afraid of buying an orphan, I can buy one of the survivors on the cheap.

 

[Henning]

The A5 is nothing of the sort, a Twin Otter on amphibs with 5 Russian whores and an entourage is how you do that.

This is a toy to have fun in and do some sight seeing from the yacht. If we can manage to launch and recover + take off in a swell, it adds some practicality to long range yachts getting into atolls and through reefs. Won't be close to as practical as a helicopter, but helicopter ops are really expensive and hazardous at sea. Plus helos are heavier, and that factors into ship's stability.

Now a days though, a drone can do all the safety stuff cheap.

 

[Silvaire]

As you said a drone has the surveillance aspect covered, already well established. The Icon is indeed a "toy" but an extremely useful and fun one. My guess is that it will succeed. Not gonna be a blockbuster but the company will be solvent.

 

[Dav8or]

The A5 is nothing of the sort, a Twin Otter on amphibs with 5 Russian whores and an entourage is how you do that.

You run with strange people. That is for sure. You vision of the world has been warped. However, this airplane will sell to many that are not billionaires and just mere millionaires and they will not have yachts and they will not be outside the country, but at their local lake with loads of their people on hand to spectate. I predict it won't be pretty. Only time will tell which of us is right.

Bottom line is, this is not created to be an airplane to make new pilots, but rather it has been created as, how the Hawaiian authorities call Jet Skis, a "Thrill Craft" for non pilots with lot of money to impress their friends with a toy others don't have. Unfortunately, it is many magnitudes more dangerous than the Jet Ski.

 

[James331]

You run with strange people. That is for sure. You vision of the world has been warped. However, this airplane will sell to many that are not billionaires and just mere millionaires and they will not have yachts and they will not be outside the country, but at their local lake with loads of their people on hand to spectate. I predict it won't be pretty. Only time will tell which of us is right.

Bottom line is, this is not created to be an airplane to make new pilots, but rather it has been created as, how the Hawaiian authorities call Jet Skis, a "Thrill Craft" for non pilots with lot of money to impress their friends with a toy others don't have. Unfortunately, it is many magnitudes more dangerous than the Jet Ski.

I disagree.

Those people could just as easily bought a PA18 ampihb clone, frankly if you're trying to play the "hold my beer and watch this" a supercub clone is a way better machine, especially the high power models with the (only full power for x minutes BS "restriction".

 

[Art VanDelay]

Why do you say that? IMO The price will adjust based on the demand for it! But it looks pretty cool for a light!

No, you don't get it - the price I'm referring to is the money they ****ed away in development costs.

 

[Dav8or]

I disagree.

Those people could just as easily bought a PA18 ampihb clone, frankly if you're trying to play the "hold my beer and watch this" a supercub clone is a way better machine, especially the high power models with the (only full power for x minutes BS "restriction".

Really?? Which one of these do you think is more attractive to a non pilot that wants a cool water toy to impress his friends?

Option 1

or, Option 2

 

[jbarrass]

$200k for an LSA? Nope.

Still...it's barely half the price of a 172.

"New" planes are expensive. I don't know of any exceptions.

 

[Dav8or]

Still...it's barely half the price of a 172.

"New" planes are expensive. I don't know of any exceptions.

Exactly. Icon has the benefit of being unique. I believe it will sell just fine at $200k. They are clearly targeting non pilots with lots of cash. There won't be a lot of- "For that much I could getta..."

There will also be a strong used market for them as well, so unless something terrible happens to the company, or they have one fold it's wings in flight, or something like that, the resale should stay high.