What do you consider scud running?

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drotto

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drotto
This is not what it is, but rather at what altitude AGL (try to keep this consistent across different elevations) do you consider scud running? I was just curious after doing my solo xc when the weather was reporting and predicting broken clouds at 5000 and in reality they were 2500 to 3000. Granted, my route required I stayed under 3000, but I had planned on being about 2800, instead I had to stay around 2000 indicated. Where I was flying this put me at about 1900 AGL.

Just wanted to know what others think.
 
With no terrain under 1500 ft ceilings. Make sure the ceilings are not on their way down.
 
Edge of legal vfr is ~1000ish agl ceiling, which puts you ~500ft above ground and ~500ft below ceiling. Done only over very familiar terrain. I'll run to town for fuel in the pawnee like that anytime.
 
I think a lot depends on the speed of the aircraft.

Mike's 1,500' might apply to a Cirrus or TBM.

For a Cub pilot, that might be all the ceiling he needs for safe operation.

I know I'm OK operating under lower ceilings in my Sky Arrow than I was in my Cirrus. I'm OK with 1,500', depending on terrain, of course. When it starts dropping below that I start seriously considering getting on the ground, or a least being sure better conditions can be found in a given direction.
 
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Flying low enough that terrain or obstructions are a factor.

The altitude varies. Some obstructions can be as high as 2000 feet.
 
MAKG1 said:
Flying low enough that terrain or obstructions are a factor.
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That. If I'm dodging cell phone towers and windmills to maintain cloud clearance I'm scud running. Actually, to be a bit more honest I'm hitting the "nearest" button on the GPS and landing.
 
I've only used the term scud running for flying with ceilings under 1k AGL.
 
nearly everyone "scud runs". It's how you end a non-precision approach.
 
drotto said:
This is not what it is, but rather at what altitude AGL (try to keep this consistent across different elevations) do you consider scud running? I was just curious after doing my solo xc when the weather was reporting and predicting broken clouds at 5000 and in reality they were 2500 to 3000. Granted, my route required I stayed under 3000, but I had planned on being about 2800, instead I had to stay around 2000 indicated. Where I was flying this put me at about 1900 AGL.

Just wanted to know what others think.
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Scud running is any altitude where you violate VFR minimums.
 
In Alaska golf airspace can go up to 14,500 ft msl.

I flew in Alaska with 500 and 1, I didn't consider it scud running in some parts, definitely was in other parts. I flew in white out conditions and didn't consider it scud running. I also flew some of the longer mountain passes at 500 agl because of the clouds.

The other day here in the southwest I was at 11,500 msl, 500 feet below the clouds, dodging convective activity with higher terrain within 10 miles and I considered that scud running, until I crossed the range and was able to descend.

To me scud running means I am trying to avoid clouds to stay VFR, but with higher terrain within 5 miles of my intended course.
 
Depends on terrain ,local knowledge,speed of the airplane and distance. If the factors don't align ,I'm filling. With all the new cell towers under 1500 is scud running.
 
drotto said:
This is not what it is, but rather at what altitude AGL (try to keep this consistent across different elevations) do you consider scud running?
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I'm of the Potter Stewart school of thought on this -- I cannot intelligibly define it this day, but I know it when I see it. Best I can do is say it's when I'm simultaneously worried both about hitting something hard and about inadvertently penetrating IMC.
 
It really depends on where you live and the terrain and obstacles, plus the specifics of the weather that day.

I've flown VFR in 1000-3 at 500 AGL just fine. Very flat area, short trip, no obstacles. Clouds were a very defined layer rather than having a lot of height variation (this is important). This was in the Aztec, so no different than a Cirrus for speed. Perfectly comfortable, no issues, safe. Lots of the middle of the country can be like this and I'd be comfortable.

I've also flown 55 nm down a river at 100 agl, just for fun. Some kids waved from a boat, I rocked the wings back at them.

In PA where I started flying, 1000-3 was really not smart to do at all. The terrain was rising and all over the place. Plenty of obstacles. I normally didn't go VFR there unless it was 3000 or better.
 
In da UP, if'n yer flyin' lower than a duck, you might be scud running...

bonus points to anyone who knows the situation which resulted in the above definition...
 
It's when you have to pull up a little to clear the high tension power lines.
 
Clark1961 said:
In da UP, if'n yer flyin' lower than a duck, you might be scud running...

bonus points to anyone who knows the situation which resulted in the above definition...
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Definition of what, Da yuppers? UP....upper peninsula of Michigan?
 
If it's Class G, the VFR min is clear of the clouds and 1 mile visibility. Class G is either 1200' or 700' unless you are in C D or B. 500' is legal if its not heavily populated area. I can handle clear of the clouds, it's the low visibility that is a problem. One mile is not much and I would NOT do it. If I was in it, I'd get out asap, turn around whatever. If it was clear of the clouds at 500' and 10 miles of visibility, it would actually be doable. That is MUCH better.

As for height, towers can be as tall as 2000'. Those are rare though. 1000' is not too rare, most states have those, 500' is common. If you have someone onboard that can look at the chart or GPS for towers, that may help.They usually dont build towers right over roads. That might help. You start worrying about these things and its scud running.

I've seen 500', clear of the clouds and debatable poor visibility. And it was scud running. I landed at the closest airport and filed IFR. It was much better on top.

If you really want to be squeaky clean, you need 3000' clouds so you can be sure you are above any towers flying at 2500' AGL. THAT's really conservative and most pilots can do lower. If you are over water, you don't have to worry about towers. But then you have to worry about going in the water if you lose your engine.

If you have all these issues, maybe you should wait for better weather, huh?
 
We get so much humidity around here that sometimes the ceilings are just part of the equation. Even if "legal", when the haze starts setting in, I don't like to get very far from the airport at all. Doesn't take much of a disturbance and the ceiling and haze form into low IFR.

For me: MVFR is IFR. Sometimes I won't fly even if legal VMC. Low ceilings, haze and towers sounds like the start of an NTSB report...
 
Geez - I'm such a wuss these days. I think anything below 3000' AGL would count in my book. :)
 
In flatlands, I don't mind flying with a 1,200' ceiling as long as I have the maps or whatever to identify big towers and the like. Put some hills in the way and things change.

Here, one of the problems is visibility in haze. It can be especially bad heading into the sun. I've had spookier moments in haze than under low ceilings.
 
I've done 1,200-1,500 ft. ceilings once to pick up an airplane on the other side of the city when I lived in the midwest. Was comfortable cause I knew the terrain and where all the airports were if I needed to get down quickly. If I were going any further I would have filed. If it were a training flight(other than instrument training) or a pleasure flight I'd just wait it out for another day. Not a lot of fun dodging clouds and scouting furiously for towers.
 
One of the issues I have with low altitude flight is that there is no time to troubleshoot if I run a tank dry or if the engine burps for whatever reason.

You're almost instantly into "pick a spot" mode, which isn't always good around here with all of the forests.
 
For me, scud running is when you have to fly lower than the minimum elevations shown on a sectional in order to remain legal (i.e. 500' below clouds).
 
drotto said:
This is not what it is, but rather at what altitude AGL (try to keep this consistent across different elevations) do you consider scud running? I was just curious after doing my solo xc when the weather was reporting and predicting broken clouds at 5000 and in reality they were 2500 to 3000. Granted, my route required I stayed under 3000, but I had planned on being about 2800, instead I had to stay around 2000 indicated. Where I was flying this put me at about 1900 AGL.

Just wanted to know what others think.
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I don't go by altitude/ceiling, I go by visibility. If the clouds are 500' stable and I have 7-10 miles vis underneath, I'm just dandy with that. Vis gets to 3 miles, or 1 minute out at 180kts, that is getting into scud running. Flying pipeline patrol where you regularly fly 100' for long distances regardless weather, and you typically have Right of Way to follow, that you can fly right on the deck, I have punched through fronts down to 1/4 mile vis, and for that I slow down, that is most definitely scud running.
 
Henning said:
I don't go by altitude/ceiling, I go by visibility.
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Exactly this. I've flown a good bit in 3-4 miles in haze with no ceiling. Fly into the sun in those conditions and tell me what you'd call it...

Flatlands with 10+ vis, and not many hard poky things coming out of the ground I'm good with a ceiling around 1,700. Wouldn't cruise all day like that, but a short cross-country, no problem. But I'm in SoCal now, those conditions don't exist out here.
 
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