What do you budget for a pre buy?

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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I am getting my ducks in a row because I want to buy my own plane.
That whole "Joining the mile high club in dad's plane" is so 1987.

I know what I want to spend and I know what I plan to put down and all that good stuff. Both purchases I have been involved in included an annual at delivery (I don't care about your thoughts on if that was a good or bad decision so let's skip history)

This go round, I am 100% decision maker and I would like a solid pre buy inspection.

I saw the thread about the guy w/ the borescope and the corrosion and want to avoid that sort of thing.

Aside from travel / lodging expenses, what should one expect to budget for a thorough prebuy on a 172, 177, 182. I realize those will have variation but I don't know if a prebuy is $500 or $5000 and I want to make sure I plan for a ballpark number that is in the right ballpark.

Thanks!
 
My prebuy on my Cherokee was $350 from a guy in Denton that Aggie Mike recommended. I expressed the areas I was interested in and he made a report for me. all was good.
 
Depends how thorough it is, a guy can get through an annual on a 172 for well under 2k without assisting provided there's no major problems.

Personally, if you weren't going the annual route, then I'd still figure paying someone that knows what they're doing for a full day at whatever their rate is which would work out to five or six hundred around these parts.
 
Don't forget obvious old and very shotty repairs.

Basically if the airplane is in good structural condition most everything else ISO easy to fix.

My favorite picture yet, like the guy was a carpenter and just bent the rivets over and sent it home. Many of the blind rivets are easy to access on both sides too.

 
5-800

It all depends on the AP, some of the expensive ones are crap, some of the good ones are economical, and everything in between.

I'd go off of word of mouth from people who own nice planes like what you're looking at, get into the type club websites.

Learn all you can about the differences year to year, and the trouble spots, quiz the AP before you hire him.

If the dude doesn't have a full tool set, bore scope, current manuals, etc for the plane when he shows up, fire him and start over.

Be sure they know that this is a PRE BUY, airworthy is just the beginning.

If you're buying a turn key airplane, a prebuy should be more through than a annual, and depending on the outcome should just become a fresh annual. At least that's how I've always done it.
 
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bnt83 said:
Don't forget obvious old and very shotty repairs.

Basically if the airplane is in good structural condition most everything else ISO easy to fix.

My favorite picture yet, like the guy was a carpenter and just bent the rivets over and sent it home.

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Was talking to a local A&p that just did a prebuy on a Cherokee 140. Found numerous spots in the spar where the owner very poorly drilled holes to run wires through it.

In addition to that the guy also notched part of the spar out....

No idea why the hell someone would decide to do the above since there's likely plenty of places to run the wire to avoid that. Can't say I've ever seen inside a Cherokee wing though.
 
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jesse said:
Was talking to a local A&p that just did a prebuy on a Cherokee 140. Found numerous spots in the spar where the owner very poorly drilled holes to run wires through it.

In addition to that the guy also notched part of the spar out....

No idea why the hell someone would decide to do the above since there's likely plenty of places to run the wire to avoid that. Can't say I've ever seen inside a Cherokee wing though.
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I've looked at a few post gear up repairs and on one of them my jaw fell to the floor in aw of the what appeard to be twice as many rivets than should be there.
 
Prebuy is more thorough than annual I thought. ???
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Prebuy is more thorough than annual I thought. ???
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A pre-buy is what you specify.

There is no regulation or even common practice on what a pre-buy is. I specified an annual inspection by a IA that I was paying for the pre-buy on the 'kota. It was a worthwhile investment is all I will say.
 
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simtech said:
My prebuy on my Cherokee was $350 from a guy in Denton that Aggie Mike recommended. I expressed the areas I was interested in and he made a report for me. all was good.
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Gary Haltom is a good one.

Bryan, the other Cessna guy to ask this question to is john Efinger at Hicks. There are lots of reasons why he's known as the Cessna Whisperer.
 
A prebuy is an inspection. An Annual is maintenance. For the annual there is a list of tasks that need to be performed. A prebuy is simply a thorough look see. You can make it as much or as little as you like, but generally all they are gonna do is look for issues that will need to be fixed now, soon, or eventually. I paid around $700 for the prebuy on the first Mooney I looked at. It was money well spent, on a plane I didn't buy. The plane I did buy got a full annual after I gave it a good looking over. I was very confident that the plane was in good condition and it needed almost nothing, and has needed almost nothing in the 100hrs since.
 
StinkBug said:
A prebuy is an inspection. An Annual is maintenance. For the annual there is a list of tasks that need to be performed. A prebuy is simply a thorough look see. You can make it as much or as little as you like, but generally all they are gonna do is look for issues that will need to be fixed now, soon, or eventually. I paid around $700 for the prebuy on the first Mooney I looked at. It was money well spent, on a plane I didn't buy. The plane I did buy got a full annual after I gave it a good looking over. I was very confident that the plane was in good condition and it needed almost nothing, and has needed almost nothing in the 100hrs since.
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I had that talk with a APIA once.

A annual is a INSPECTION.

If something needs fixing that's another matter.

The prebuy is the most important inspection your potential new plane will ever receive in the time you own it.
 
Yet most annuals require changing of filters, certain seals, o-rings, wear items, etc. which imho falls solidly under the preventive maintenance heading.
 
StinkBug said:
Yet most annuals require changing of filters, certain seals, o-rings, wear items, etc. which imho falls solidly under the preventive maintenance heading.
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Most, but a annual itself is still just an inspection, infact anyone (some owner, some AP) can preform any airworthy required work.
 
My first pre buy on a 172 was 350 ,that was years ago. For my twin I spent $850, both times the owner did the repairs needed ,found in the pre buy. It's all about what's important to you.
 
I paid $350 for a prebuy on a Warrior, but after ferrying costs, yeah, say $500.

Before you even get to the prebuy, order the FAA CD and review the logs.
 
A prebuy is your shot to avoid a snake in the grass. Assuming you find an old airplane such as a 172 or Cherokee, that you actually want to get the into the prebuy inspection stage, how much is $350 to $500 going to cover?

Look at the pictures here ://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82448 then think about fuel tank covers, pull the headliner etc etc looking in all those traps that likely haven't seen the light of day in 30 years.

Or a Cherokee, I'd want the fuel tanks removed because you can see a lot more stuff by doing so. Not an easy job. What about the interior of the Cherokee? It sucks pulling it, so when was the last time it was done?

My dad is interested in a local way out of annual 177, and I want about a week to look at it assuming we don't find a deal breaker urine soaked mouse nest in the first few hours look at it.

Some pictures I've taken over the years

Aft carry thru in 172




RH wing aft spar in the same 172



Aileron "repair" on a 172



A 1964 Cessna 210 that was surprisingly clean where I looked.



 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am getting my ducks in a row because I want to buy my own plane.
That whole "Joining the mile high club in dad's plane" is so 1987.

I know what I want to spend and I know what I plan to put down and all that good stuff. Both purchases I have been involved in included an annual at delivery (I don't care about your thoughts on if that was a good or bad decision so let's skip history)

This go round, I am 100% decision maker and I would like a solid pre buy inspection.

I saw the thread about the guy w/ the borescope and the corrosion and want to avoid that sort of thing.

Aside from travel / lodging expenses, what should one expect to budget for a thorough prebuy on a 172, 177, 182. I realize those will have variation but I don't know if a prebuy is $500 or $5000 and I want to make sure I plan for a ballpark number that is in the right ballpark.

Thanks!
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Let me ask you this, how many pre buys are you willing to go through, and how much travel expense are you willing to incur looking at planes and rejecting them? The real question is not just the prebuy, but the entire purchasing process.

You are lucky though, you should be able to buy a nice clean 182 reasonably locally (local by TX standards anyway which is a 4hr radius) and you have an SR-22 available to go looking with.

It really depends on what your overall budget is and how picky you are about what you're looking for. If I was looking for a really sweet 182, I would budget $5k for the buying process understanding it may go higher as well as lower.

Inspection itself between $400 and $750 depending on how in depth it goes.
 
Henning said:
Let me ask you this, how many pre buys are you willing to go through, and how much travel expense are you willing to incur looking at planes and rejecting them?
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Valid concern, we kissed two frogs, third bird was the charm.

I would budget $5k for the buying process understanding it may go higher as well as lower.
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Yeah, that. We were more like $7k net all expenses.
 
StinkBug said:
Yet most annuals require changing of filters, certain seals, o-rings, wear items, etc. which imho falls solidly under the preventive maintenance heading.
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There's multiple phases to an annual, and you are correct, some of them require maintenance items to be done. In the 'pre buy' process what is typical is to open it up and do all the inspection items and come up with the squawk sheet. The buyer and seller hash over it and either come to a deal or not. The way I typically handle it regardless which side of the deal I'm on is if the deal is done, seller takes care of the airworthy discrepancies and has the maintenance phase of the annual completed delivering with fresh annual. I have always bought them with a fresh, and have always delivered them with a fresh, I just think it's right. The buyer handles the cost of the inspection phase of the annual and covers any non airworthy discrepancies, or whatever is left over they want done after what they can negotiate.
 
If you get a 182, get one that is on Petersen's list for the Katmai conversion, then you can over time do the upgrades, starting with the Canard. The Canard makes the 182 into a whole different airplane, it becomes a dream to fly. The 260hp gives it awesome performance.
 
Pre buys are very vague by definition, be sure to let the A&P what you expect to be look at, they get to look many things, but something he may consider not important makes a difference to you, nothing better than let them know what you want ahead of time, ond off course the more you need to be inspected, the more Benjamin's you will expend.

The one I use in my prebuy was blind or a SOB, he pass a prebuy and sing anual and I found this when I got to base airport my flaps retract on final due to the grass inside wing, lock was inoperable. :yes:
Off course we have a little chat after that. Be diligent ask on forums references for your A&P always some one knows the one you are going to use, in my case I knew ahead of time of ****ty work this guy perform but heh was only one able to get to frozen destination and get the plane sign off to bring it home.
 

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My last pre-buy was on a 2006 SR22 in California. I used Savvy so that was 750. Relocating the plane was about 400 and 20 hours or so following Savvy's guidelines was a couple grand. So I spent about 3000

AND I WALKED away from the plane. Had I done a not-so-thorough pre-buy I would have bought the plane and regretted it shortly thereafter. So 3K well spent - at least as far as i'm concerned.
 
EminiTrader said:
My last pre-buy was on a 2006 SR22 in California. I used Savvy so that was 750. Relocating the plane was about 400 and 20 hours or so following Savvy's guidelines was a couple grand. So I spent about 3000

AND I WALKED away from the plane. Had I done a not-so-thorough pre-buy I would have bought the plane and regretted it shortly thereafter. So 3K well spent - at least as far as i'm concerned.
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Sooooooo...

What was the deal breaker..:dunno::dunno:
 
Corrosion in the motor. If I recall correctly(going back a couple months) they found traces of corrosion - we dug deeper and found more. Savvy said it was a matter of time before the motor would go bad...

Too bad.. was a great plane with A/C and R9 setup. Already had my ticket purchased to go pick it up.... oh well...
 
I know my shop is expensive (as is everything at KAPA it seems) but they were thorough and looked at all the things that might cost me a boatload of money.

IIRC mine was about $900 - sounds like the high end of the estimate range but then mine was an RG also so they had a few extra steps that might not be there on a straight leg.

Anyway good luck with the purchase!
 
The Katmai conversion is sweet. What does it cost to get that conversion done? Do you know?

The ones I have seen already done are well beyond my reach.
 
If you're worried about the cost of a pre-buy inspection you are not ready for airplane ownership. You can't budget unexpected maintenance, and it can run into serious bucks.
 
As has been said, a pre-buy is what you specify. Often times people like to do an annual (with their mechanic of choice) because that hits all the most important things. A thorough logbook review I'd say is important as well.

No idea what this would cost on a single like you're talking, but I would want to do an annual. I have sometimes advised people to skip the prebuy on a plane depending on its history as that can save money and be a good negotiating tool. But it is a risk.
 
steingar said:
If you're worried about the cost of a pre-buy inspection you are not ready for airplane ownership. You can't budget unexpected maintenance, and it can run into serious bucks.
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I am not at all worried about paying for any of it.
I budget my money down to the penny weekly and part of budgeting for the future requires estimating. I needed a ballpark estimate for a prebuy.

I split operating/maintenance costs on the TB9 and now the Cirrus and haven't had to sell the kids yet.
 
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My last one, I budgeted 0.

It was just coming out of a 5 figure annual, the seller wasn't expecting to sell it and was doing everything as if he was going to keep it.
 
steingar said:
If you're worried about the cost of a pre-buy inspection you are not ready for airplane ownership. You can't budget unexpected maintenance, and it can run into serious bucks.
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I believe the OP has owned in the past; regardless, the reality is that the pre-buy is a small cost in the grand scheme of things but there is no reason not to try and develop a budget as long as you are prepared for the worst case scenario.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Prebuy is more thorough than annual I thought. ???
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A prebuy has a different objective. A prebuy is to determine value, an annual is to determine airworthy. In order to determine value, you first have to determine if it's airworthy and that gets you an annual. However the prebuy should also give you an idea of what it will take to keep it airworthy in the future, and that takes more information.
 
TUPilot said:
as you are prepared for the worst case scenario.
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Many owners contend that you just might spend 10% of the purchase price in the first year or two to have everything brought up to snuff.
 
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