What do you budget for a pre buy?

Bill Jennings said:
Many owners contend that you just might spend 10% of the purchase price in the first year or two to have everything brought up to snuff.
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I will plan for that plus a bit extra in the event that a pre buy or two reveal something from which I have to walk away.
 
I paid around $400 for a pre-buy on my Archer that resulted in me being told what I already knew- that I was buying an airplane in very good condition mechanically with a couple of cosmetic issues that I could safely ignore.

On the flight home we discovered the OBS knob on the garmin indicator was inop. While having the avionics guy replace it we also discovered that the pitot-static check was out of date... this was missed by my CFI, myself, and the guy doing the pre-buy. In my defense, at the time I was a student pilot who didn't know any better and was totally relying on people smarter than me...

IIRC sending the indicator in for repair and having it removed/reinstalled ran around $400. I think the avionics guy charged me about $75 to do a quick VFR pitot-static check on the spot. I think a month or two later on my 2nd solo XC I had to send the attitude indicator failed, rebuild ran ~$900.

First annual ran just under $3,000. Nothing exciting just lots of little stuff that added up. Next one due to various circumstances was done by a retiree mechanic instead of my normal shop and only ran about $700. Only things replaced were some screws and the landing light.

My pre-buy was pretty worthless. I suppose they're all worthless until they find something and save you a few thousand $.
 
Short answer (for pre-buying a 1967 Bonanza V35): $2250.

Long answer:
A Cessna service center is probably the best place to do a pre-purchase as they follow the standards of the manufacturer.
For Bonanzas, ABS has a pretty good pre-buy checklist. I think there should be something similar for Cessnas. An ABS approved service center estimated $2250 for pre-buying a Bo going with the ABS's pre-buy list. Cessna should be less.
Opening a cylinder and borescoping may cost about another $500, if the owner allows.
 
Bryan, in my opinion if you spend more than 300 on a prebuy on a 172 or a 182 your probably throwing money away. Couple hours looking at airframe and couple hours on logs should be enough. Actually any good ap should be able to tell you in 30 min if you should walk away. I personally don't do prebuys. I've always felt it was kinda a waste. I've bought 3 of the 4 airplanes I was interested in, in the last few months. The one I didn't had undisclosed hail damage. The only way I will is if I have my mechanic do it. I have several things I look for and requirements that I want. My two big deal breakers are hail and corrosion. I buy planes fairly frequently and have not been burned yet.
 
It is not the 30 min walk away deals that are the problem, actually, I specialize in doing them. When they pass that, that is when they go for the in depth inspection.
 
I start with a logbook review, preferably before any travel. That eliminates a lot of turkeys with turning a screw.

If you are looking at a complex or somewhat quirky airplane, get a specialist.
 
NavByte said:
[...] A Cessna service center is probably the best place to do a pre-purchase as they follow the standards of the manufacturer. [...]
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We though the same, when we bought our plane just a few weeks ago and paid almost exactly $1,000 for a pre-buy inspection at a Cessna center. The pre-buy included an IFR check. Of the options we had in this area, this was the most expensive one, but we wanted to have it done right and rather pay a little bit extra. Well, this was pretty much a waste of money. They even missed a number of obvious and quite common defects like a completely worn torque link at the front gear, a broken spring at the seat lock, which would then just slide back in the worst moment, and an inop compass.

@ Bryan: What I want to say with this is that if somebody has a least a some technical understanding and is interested in this topic, one should try to become as smart as possible and participate in the pre-buy inspection, instead of just kicking tires, maybe flying the plane a bit and send somebody for the pre-buy either later on or in advance. I have also learned that it is more important to send somebody you trust rather than to just select a company because they have a good sounding name and are e. g. a Cessna Center.

Another reason why I believe that it is important to participate in the pre-buy is that having a second pair of eyes never hurts, even if they are untrained and that one can directly see whether an issue is acceptable or not or if something would be seen by the potential buyer as an issue, what the guy who does does pre-buy might not even consider worth mentioning (we had both).

Also, speak with other pilots, A&Ps, read the forums, ask question - reflect on their opinions, take everything with a grain of salt (easier said than done, I again speak of own experience) and put it into context, try to make up your own mind and turn it into a learning experience. I was really surprised (well, maybe not) how greatly the opinions varied with the tendency towards more radical position in internet forums.

Speaking of seeking advice - I learned, especially from researching the internet, that one must insist (OK - I am a exaggerating, but only slightly) on hundreds of detailed pictures, scanned logbooks, multiple discussions with the sellers mechanic and the commitment of the seller to fly the plane to another airports, possibly hours away, for an extensive pre-buy inspection. Of course, the plane must also be in a like new condition to be acceptable and will always be too expensive, no matter for what price it is offered. It is also important that it is not too far away, but lives in a dry region. Yadayadayada...

While these are certainly great tips, I believe that they describe rather an ideal than a real world process. At least not, if the goal is to eventually buy a plane in the $25k - $75k range.

My experience, from searching for multiple month for a 172 for up to $50k and contacting close to 30 sellers is, that quite a few don't even respond to e-mails or calls, even though they just put the plane on Barnstormers, Trade-a-plane or wherever. Of those approximately 20 with whom I got in contact with, only one(!!) was able to at least provide me with reasonably good quality photos, a video of the plane and who tried his best to answer my questions. This was the dealer from whom we actually bought the plane. He was also one of only two who agreed to bring the plane to another airport for a pre-buy inspection. To scan the logbooks was beyond anybody was willing to do.

I also found that the planes which seemed to be really good for the price, were often gone pretty much instantly. Quite a few were already purchased on the phone, with the buyer on its way, by the time I called a few days, sometimes hours after they were put on the market. Even when planes were just 'normally' attractive, they still created enough interest that sellers did not feel that they would need to go through all the hazzle with snapping additional pictures, scanning logbooks, arranging calls with their mechanics or to agree to a pre-by inspection a few weeks later, because there were usually a number of potential buyers aligned who would show up within the next few days.

OK, this was a long post - I learned that it is essential to become smart myself about what to look for and to be prepared to go to check out a plane on short notice, if it sounds right on the phone and if it looks good on the few pictures which are usually only available. To be able to conduct a pre-buy without another person also wouldn't hurt and increase the flexibility. My experience is, that the good planes don't stay long enough on the market and the sellers don't feel the pressure for a full blown ideal purchasing process.
 
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I find that most A&P's are not any good at pre-purchase inspections. They are too used to assessing the aircraft to see that it is minimally airworthy. A competent pre-purchase should be looking with a more discriminating eye. No one wants to buy a plane that is minimally airworthy. They want one that will not be costing a ton of money over the first couple of years. It also requires a flight test, which most A&P's aren't used to doing and probably don't have enough experience in the plane to know what they are looking for.
 
My pre buy has turned into an annual for about 2000 Euros (not including the avionics check for 200 Euros and issuance of Airworthiness Review Certificate for 600 Euros and some additional replacements)--all in about 3000 Euros for a simple plane on the UK registry. Can probably get it all done in future years for about 2000 Euros.

Then come the extras… while he's doing all the work, including an ELT, which is costing 900 Euros plus installation…
 
German guy said:
We though the same, when we bought our plane just a few weeks ago and paid almost exactly $1,000 for a pre-buy inspection at a Cessna center. The pre-buy included an IFR check. Of the options we had in this area, this was the most expensive one, but we wanted to have it done right and rather pay a little bit extra. Well, this was pretty much a waste of money. They even missed a number of obvious and quite common defects like a completely worn torque link at the front gear, a broken spring at the seat lock, which would then just slide back in the worst moment, and an inop compass.
...
My experience, from searching for multiple month for a 172 for up to $50k and contacting close to 30 sellers is, that quite a few don't even respond to e-mails or calls, even though they just put the plane on Barnstormers, Trade-a-plane or wherever. Of those approximately 20 with whom I got in contact with, only one(!!) was able to at least provide me with reasonably good quality photos, a video of the plane and who tried his best to answer my questions. This was the dealer from whom we actually bought the plane. He was also one of only two who agreed to bring the plane to another airport for a pre-buy inspection. To scan the logbooks was beyond anybody was willing to do.
...
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German guy's experience in contacting many sellers, of whom 1/3 don't even answer your call or email, is confirmed with my over-a-year experience of searching and contacting sellers.

About the certified service centres, even if they cannot be trusted, as G.g. would say, wie schade. I never had this experience. It can happen at any service centre. So, I would correct my statement to "the most reputable" service centres. I don't have Cessna experience, but the groups particular to a certain aircraft (e.g. MAPA for Mooneys and ABS for Bonanzas) can better recommend where to look for a reputable and trustworthy service centre.

The online research is also very useful as he mentioned. I found some service bulletins (SBs) that are not mandatory by FAA but when thinking about them you feel they are more than mandatory (e.g. tubular corrosion inspection and repainting for Mooney 201).
 
what ever the base rate is for an annual inspection..well thats about what you will pay. I like them to do an inspection right out of the maintenence manual and return the paperwork to the owner and myself.. I expect the owner to correct any airworthiness issues and we can work out anything that would be considered an NEF. ....best advice that proved to be true over and over ...figure 10% of the value is what you could spend in the first year of ownership to get it really the way you want it.
 
Kristin said:
I start with a logbook review, preferably before any travel. That eliminates a lot of turkeys with turning a screw.

If you are looking at a complex or somewhat quirky airplane, get a specialist.
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This is very true, and email PDFs do reduce the unnecessary travel a whole bunch, but reviewing logs is kinda tricky, you have to know how to spot the inconsistencies, and even then, just the logs with no airplane to look at simultaneously only gets you part of the way. I also like it when the sellers have all the work orders and 337s included in the PDF. Experience says that the more detailed and complete the documentation for the plane is that gets sent me at first, the more likely the deal is to complete.
 
NavByte said:
[...] About the certified service centres, even if they cannot be trusted, as G.g. would say, wie schade. I never had this experience. It can happen at any service centre. So, I would correct my statement to "the most reputable" service centres. [...]
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Don't get me wrong - I of course don't think that all are like this, we just picked a bad apple.

Assuming our next plane will again be a basic Cessna or Piper, we will probably simply choose a generally experienced and reputable A&P. For a more complex / modern plane, like a Mooney or a Cirrus, it however appears indeed advisable to find a specialized shop or A&P to do the pre-buy.
 
German guy said:
Don't get me wrong - I of course don't think that all are like this, we just picked a bad apple.

Assuming our next plane will again be a basic Cessna or Piper, we will probably simply choose a generally experienced and reputable A&P. For a more complex / modern plane, like a Mooney or a Cirrus, it however appears indeed advisable to find a specialized shop or A&P to do the pre-buy.
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The problem is, there is no enforced standard to being a Cessna Service Center beyond the standards that apply to everyone. It's a marketing tool, not an endorsement.
 
German guy said:
Don't get me wrong - I of course don't think that all are like this, we just picked a bad apple.

Assuming our next plane will again be a basic Cessna or Piper, we will probably simply choose a generally experienced and reputable A&P. For a more complex / modern plane, like a Mooney or a Cirrus, it however appears indeed advisable to find a specialized shop or A&P to do the pre-buy.
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By basic piper or Cessna are you talking 172, 152, PA28?

A prebuy on a 185 or PA24, for example, I'd want someone who has some time working on those planes.
 
Henning said:
The problem is, there is no enforced standard to being a Cessna Service Center beyond the standards that apply to everyone. It's a marketing tool, not an endorsement.
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Are you sure? That's interesting. I wonder what regulations apply to these shops to become authorized by the manufacturer. Any training they have to receive from the manufacturer?

A Mooney shop told me they have to obey the standards of Mooney that includes the minimum airworthiness items required by Transport Canada (aka Canadian FAA) but has a lot more than that, such as upgrading aileron rods, etc. to the post 90s models', which are not required by FAA but recommended by Mooney.

BTW, Textron has a list of Cessna Authorized Service Facilities in every region:
http://cessna.txtav.com/en/service-locator
 
NavByte said:
Are you sure? That's interesting. I wonder what regulations apply to these shops to become authorized by the manufacturer. Any training they have to receive from the manufacturer?

A Mooney shop told me they have to obey the standards of Mooney that includes the minimum airworthiness items required by Transport Canada (aka Canadian FAA) but has a lot more than that, such as upgrading aileron rods, etc. to the post 90s models', which are not required by FAA but recommended by Mooney.

BTW, Textron has a list of Cessna Authorized Service Facilities in every region:
http://cessna.txtav.com/en/service-locator
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They buy $XXX,XXX.xx dollars in parts inventory to resell. It's about money, not quality. People will always bull**** on the company line, but the only part of the contract that is enforced is the monetary part.
 
Henning said:
They buy $XXX,XXX.xx dollars in parts inventory to resell. It's about money, not quality. People will always bull**** on the company line, but the only part of the contract that is enforced is the monetary part.
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That's interesting to know. So, it becomes the problem of how much you really want to spend on your airplane, to go with the manufacturer's recommendation or stay at the airworthiness items. The value of the airplane increases by doing the recommended repairs/upgrades, though not to the full $ you spend.
 
NavByte said:
German guy's experience in contacting many sellers, of whom 1/3 don't even answer your call or email, is confirmed with my over-a-year experience of searching and contacting sellers.
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As a recent seller that always answer emails and calls back, it works both ways. The number of whacky buyers requests vary from:

"If you fly it to Germany, I'll take a look at it"
"Can you put it on the Venezuelan register? I might buy it then"
"I need to see serial number of each individual part that went into engine overhaul" (BTW, I got most of it for him, but he never returned the email)
"Pre-buy you should pay for"
"Paint and interior isn't new, the market cost of that should be deducted from price"
Etc, etc.

And because I don't have one week of my life to scan logbooks (it takes about 5 mins per page and on a 37 year old plane, that adds up) I opted to take close up photos of each page instead and send those. But funny how when you mention that, they're not all that interested anymore. It's almost like they have some kind of cliche AOPA how-to-buy-a-plane-and-not-get-screwed manuscript they follow where they ask:

Any damage history (that's always, always, always the first question)?
Scanned logbooks?
Who serviced it?

Listen, there are a lot of bad sellers out there, I know. But not all of us are out to screw you. In fact, most of us are out to represent the plane as fairly and truthfully as possible, I would venture. I always gave the phone number of the mechanic that serviced my plane and encouraged them to call and talk to the head A&P/IA and get the word from him. Or the previous owner. Nobody ever did. They just want to tick their box and sound like they know what they're talking about so that I know they're the boss….
 
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stratobee said:
As a recent seller that always answer emails and calls back, it works both ways. The number of whacky buyers requests vary from:

"If you fly it to Germany, I'll take a look at it"
"I need to see serial number of each individual part that went into engine overhaul" (BTW, I got most of it for him, but he never returned the email)
"Pre-buy you should pay for"
"Paint and interior isn't new, the cost of that should be deducted from price"
Etc, etc.
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I hope you weren't selling a C150 when the guy asked to fly it to Germany :rofl:

But you're absolutely right. I can imagine how frustrating these kind of emails are. Asking for the serial numbers of the parts is a bit too much, unless if it's one of those ECi cylinders that have ADs on them.
When contacting a seller, we have to trust them about what they say. However, Reagan said, trust but confirm in pre-buy :)

I have had better experience talking to the agent's selling airplanes than with the owners as the agents are more willing to share the information. They usually scan the documents and upload them on the Controller ads.

A dedicated website with the ad and answers to popular questions about the airplane goes a long way reducing the load on the seller.

By the way, if I'm a buyer today, I will be a seller in future. None of us are from another planet.
 
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bnt83 said:
Don't forget obvious old and very shotty repairs.

Basically if the airplane is in good structural condition most everything else ISO easy to fix.

My favorite picture yet, like the guy was a carpenter and just bent the rivets over and sent it home. Many of the blind rivets are easy to access on both sides too.

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For those untrained eyes, why should I be aghast at what I'm looking at here? What is wrong? I want to be offended but have no idea what's happening in this picture.
 
To answer the OP's question, I personally budget whatever the cost of an annual inspection is for the type aircraft in question. What the inspection finds/needs to be corrected is then part of the purchase negotiation.

Ideally, I would use either my own IA or an IA who knows the type well and understands what my standard of maintenance is.
 
NavByte said:
That's interesting to know. So, it becomes the problem of how much you really want to spend on your airplane, to go with the manufacturer's recommendation or stay at the airworthiness items. The value of the airplane increases by doing the recommended repairs/upgrades, though not to the full $ you spend.
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It's really matter of finding and building a relationship with a mechanic/shop regardless. There are specialty shops that have slightly different rules, but for the most part, you should find the mechanic/IA who is going to maintain the plane for you go do the prebuy. You get at best 30% return on the parts cost of a mod, and zero on the install. Textron, Piper, Cirrus, Mooney... have one objective, to secure the highest stock value possible.
 
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