What do i need to know about *building* a new experimental plane

kyleb said:
Their webstore is down at the moment, but the 2 blade Hartzell is the one I have sitting new in box in my garage. About $8k from Vans.
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wohoo. thanks
 
I wouldn’t try to accurately price out a project from the bottom up, more so I would come up with a budget and try to stick to that. Much like building a house. You might be able to build an RV-10 with all new parts for $150K. I’m not sure but to hit that target you would essentially keep it to the plans and really limit any additions and make cost conscious choices on everything.

Or like me, just decide to get exactly what you want and accept the end project cost will be whatever it is.
 
OkieAviator said:
I wouldn’t try to accurately price out a project from the bottom up, more so I would come up with a budget and try to stick to that. Much like building a house. You might be able to build an RV-10 with all new parts for $150K. I’m not sure but to hit that target you would essentially keep it to the plans and really limit any additions and make cost conscious choices on everything.

Or like me, just decide to get exactly what you want and accept the end project cost will be whatever it is.
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Unfortunately I am not the cost conscious type
 
Well if you like gadgets and glass then you can go as nutty as you want.
 
WannFly said:
i dont see a 2 blade option for 540 - https://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/order_forms/sensenich_metal_order_form.pdf


interesting, i dont know much about props, 2 blade vs 3 blade...
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Here is the Hartzell page for the two bladed prop.
http://hartzellprop.com/pilots/kit-builders/rv-10-lycoming-io-540/

Blade number is usually a function of engine power, a engine can only transfer so much power per prop blade. As engine HP increases there are only a few option to transfer the increased power to the air, one is to increase the prop diameter. Since that is limited by ground clearance adding another blade is the next step. If the engine doesn't have the power, adding the extra blade adds weight, increases wake turbulence seen by each blade, and decreases the efficiency. The 540 doesn't really have the power to drive 3 bladed props and most RVs will see a couple knot decrease in speeds for identical settings. Reasons to get 3-blade: it looks cool and might run smoother, but I think there are RPM settings to avoid with them.
 
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nauga said:
The irony there is that some of the thinnest metal and most difficult access for riveting/bucking is on the tail - but even for a beginner it's manageable, especially if you take time to practice on scrap; and if you really bugger it up replacement parts are cheaper. :D

Nauga,
who still keeps a scrap box of all the parts he trasheds.
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So true. Do the practice toolbox and practice wing section. And when you tackle riveting the skin on the horiz. stab, do the underside first. Dings there are a lot less noticeable! By the time you get to the upper surface, your technique will have improved.

I think the most traumatic part of my build is when I put that first quarter-size pock mark in the aluminum when the riveting gun slipped. Because everyone starts out believing they can build the perfect airplane. With a little filler before paint, the dings disappear.

As always, perfect is the enemy of good enough. :)
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
So true. Do the practice toolbox and practice wing section. And when you tackle riveting the skin on the horiz. stab, do the underside first. Dings there are a lot less noticeable! By the time you get to the upper surface, your technique will have improved.

I think the most traumatic part of my build is when I put that first quarter-size pock mark in the aluminum when the riveting gun slipped. Because everyone starts out believing they can build the perfect airplane. With a little filler before paint, the dings disappear.

As always, perfect is the enemy of good enough. :)
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I am already mortified by the thought of scratching the skin, making a bigger countersink hole than required, under dimpling, over dimpling , developing a wrinkle in the skin ... to name a few. And don’t get me even started about the thought of installing the control surfaces and cables . I am thinking way ahead, I know... but can’t seem to stop
 
Another option is the Revolution Aircraft RAI-6 Foxtrot 4 (XR). It's composite, and is a lot faster build than a RV-10.
 
Crashnburn said:
Another option is the Revolution Aircraft RAI-6 Foxtrot 4 (XR). It's composite, and is a lot faster build than a RV-10.
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That seems far more expensive than -10. Not looking at a faster build, I would spreading the cost over 3-4 years and most likely this would be my last plane (for now that’s what I think at least) :p
 
WannFly said:
Cooler is great, but what’s the added benefit? I still need to research the difference
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On the -10, the composite 3 blade prop is much lighter. Users say it is smoother.

On the downside, it is far more expensive and makes removing the bottom cowl a beeyotch (which has already been mentioned). The real downside is that it is hard not to beat up the cowl or prop when you remove/reinstall that cowl over the years. Wear is cumulative and you'll pick up much more of it with the 3 blade.
 
Cool isn't enough? heehee.

Actually, my three blade is more smooth and quiet than the two blade it replaced. I had it pitched for cruise, maybe I lost some climb rate, but 1300' per min is plenty.
 
Ravioli said:
Cool isn't enough? heehee.

Actually, my three blade is more smooth and quiet than the two blade it replaced. I had it pitched for cruise, maybe I lost some climb rate, but 1300' per min is plenty.
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Coming from 500, 1300 would be sitting in a rocket ship. Believe -10 is closer to 1500
 
I’d like to think I am pretty mechanically inclined and somewhat electrically inclined. Grew up turning wrenches on motocross bikes, my trucks, and other various mechanical things. I’ve done very basic electrical work over the years (truck, RC, drones, etc). Degree in mechanical engineering (not that it particularly means fabrication/building competence).

God man, I honestly don’t know that I could go down the road of building an RV. My neighbor across from me is building a beautiful RV14 with the dual Dynon Skyview panels (the newest HD versions - they are awesome!). He is almost done, but it will have taken him almost 5 years by the time he is done and that was with the quick build kit. Granted he is incredibly fastidious, but nonetheless, every time I walk in his hangar I am blown away by how much work it is. There is a lot of fabrication skills that I don’t have and would have no idea of how to go about learning. The electrical wiring alone would require tons and tons of research and learning to do efficiently and correctly (maybe I’m wrong here, but that has been my impression). He is divorced, kids are older so he has a lot of time on his hands. I don’t see how you could do it otherwise without it taking 8-10 years lol. He also has the advantage of owning a 172 that he can fly on the side. Although, he doesn’t fly it much and spends most the time building.

I think a part of me would really enjoy the process, but the impatient side of me would likely not stand it for 4-6 years.

That said, I’d love an RV. It’s been my dads dream plane for many years (RV9 specifically). I’d love any of the models tbh.
 
Is taking over the garage for 3+ years going to cause any issues within your household? Also, is that an adequate space for this project? If you don't like the space you're working in, you'll soon dislike your project.

I've never built an airplane, but I have worked in both adequate and inadequate spaces, and I can tell you not having a comfortable, well equipped shop is really demotivating.
 
FormerHangie said:
Is taking over the garage for 3+ years going to cause any issues within your household? Also, is that an adequate space for this project? If you don't like the space you're working in, you'll soon dislike your project.

I've never built an airplane, but I have worked in both adequate and inadequate spaces, and I can tell you not having a comfortable, well equipped shop is really demotivating.
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I am single and don’t mind parking outside even if when it’s bitter cold. It’s a 2 car garage but the ceiling is only 8 ft high, I have been researching the numbers and I believe it would fit until I am ready to put the fuselage on the gear at which point I may have to move to a hanger but that’s way down the road. While doing the engine and wiring I plan on moving to a hangar at my mechanics airport since I am pretty sure I would like him to oversee some of the work. For now I plan on converting the garage into a shop and insulate and arrange for some heating.

It’s in a research phase, so everything is a pipe dream right now.
 
A 3-blade prop combined with a removable scoop and ram air system makes your plane 17% cooler than those without. It also solves the trouble with lower cowl removal.
 
CC268 said:
I’d like to think I am pretty mechanically inclined and somewhat electrically inclined. Grew up turning wrenches on motocross bikes, my trucks, and other various mechanical things. I’ve done very basic electrical work over the years (truck, RC, drones, etc). Degree in mechanical engineering (not that it particularly means fabrication/building competence).

God man, I honestly don’t know that I could go down the road of building an RV. My neighbor across from me is building a beautiful RV14 with the dual Dynon Skyview panels (the newest HD versions - they are awesome!). He is almost done, but it will have taken him almost 5 years by the time he is done and that was with the quick build kit. Granted he is incredibly fastidious, but nonetheless, every time I walk in his hangar I am blown away by how much work it is. There is a lot of fabrication skills that I don’t have and would have no idea of how to go about learning. The electrical wiring alone would require tons and tons of research and learning to do efficiently and correctly (maybe I’m wrong here, but that has been my impression). He is divorced, kids are older so he has a lot of time on his hands. I don’t see how you could do it otherwise without it taking 8-10 years lol. He also has the advantage of owning a 172 that he can fly on the side. Although, he doesn’t fly it much and spends most the time building.

I think a part of me would really enjoy the process, but the impatient side of me would likely not stand it for 4-6 years.

That said, I’d love an RV. It’s been my dads dream plane for many years (RV9 specifically). I’d love any of the models tbh.
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Reading between the lines it sounds like you would have no problem what so ever building one and you would probably enjoy the process. There isn’t a lot of fabrication work at all. The fab work that is required is easy and not demanding at all.

But you do have to want to do it. If you really like flying, it helps to have something to fly while you build. After all, you don’t want to quit the activity that you are building towards (sorry).


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WannFly said:
Cooler is great, but what’s the added benefit? I still need to research the difference
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Generally a three blade on a given engine will be smaller diameter than the equivalent two blade. Gives increased ground clearance and usually perceived to be quieter because tip velocity is lower.
 
CC268 said:
I’d like to think I am pretty mechanically inclined and somewhat electrically inclined. Grew up turning wrenches on motocross bikes, my trucks, and other various mechanical things. I’ve done very basic electrical work over the years (truck, RC, drones, etc). Degree in mechanical engineering (not that it particularly means fabrication/building competence).

God man, I honestly don’t know that I could go down the road of building an RV. My neighbor across from me is building a beautiful RV14 with the dual Dynon Skyview panels (the newest HD versions - they are awesome!). He is almost done, but it will have taken him almost 5 years by the time he is done and that was with the quick build kit. Granted he is incredibly fastidious, but nonetheless, every time I walk in his hangar I am blown away by how much work it is. There is a lot of fabrication skills that I don’t have and would have no idea of how to go about learning. The electrical wiring alone would require tons and tons of research and learning to do efficiently and correctly (maybe I’m wrong here, but that has been my impression). He is divorced, kids are older so he has a lot of time on his hands. I don’t see how you could do it otherwise without it taking 8-10 years lol. He also has the advantage of owning a 172 that he can fly on the side. Although, he doesn’t fly it much and spends most the time building.

I think a part of me would really enjoy the process, but the impatient side of me would likely not stand it for 4-6 years.

That said, I’d love an RV. It’s been my dads dream plane for many years (RV9 specifically). I’d love any of the models tbh.
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There's no skills you can't learn. There's lots of assistance through EAA Chapters, Vans, other builders and such.
The time commitment is not trivial, and that is what stopped me too. But a friend who has built three plans built, from scratch airplanes said "If you start now, in ten years you'll have something. If you don't, in ten years you'll have nothing".
 
GRG55 said:
There's no skills you can't learn. There's lots of assistance through EAA Chapters, Vans, other builders and such.
The time commitment is not trivial, and that is what stopped me too. But a friend who has built three plans built, from scratch airplanes said "If you start now, in ten years you'll have something. If you don't, in ten years you'll have nothing".
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I can vouch for the help already, over at VAF, I already got a ton of info, PMs from various builders who have built not one and multiple of them. Virtually met one at my backyard, KJKJ who built and flies a 9A... I might get a ride sooner than I thought
 
Ah - prop one-up-manship! :)
Disclaimer - this new model came out long after I left the service ... my ride only had 4 blades per side

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WannFly said:
I can vouch for the help already, over at VAF, I already got a ton of info, PMs from various builders who have built not one and multiple of them. Virtually met one at my backyard, KJKJ who built and flies a 9A... I might get a ride sooner than I thought
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Building is fun! Or at least it can be...

When I used to soar (fly gliders) the best part of the sport was the social part. Every weekend we’d go out, assemble, talk s**t, fly off, race each other, come back, have a beer, kiss the boy/girlfriends, roast weinies, talk more s**t, disassemble and plan vengeance for next weekend.

When I returned to airplanes I just couldn’t find an equivalent social scene. There’s plenty of them in aviation I guess but I just didn’t hook up.

Building was a new community with lot’s of interaction. Not person to person in my case but online. Social media I guess; VAF and the RV10 list and the Aeroelectric list (go find that for electrical work). Given what’s going on in the world now, we know social media can keep one pretty engaged.

Sure there’s plenty of that here on POA, but when building it gets more intensive, meaningful and fulfilling.

WannFly, you are almost there.... take the step!




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All this cool prop envy is fine. It’s all about finding away to apply all that excess HP to moving your plane forward. Looks very cool.

Bottom line is that a IO-540 powered RV10 is a finely balanced craft with just the right horsepower to get up and get the job done with gusto! Every blade beyond 2 just makes it slightly less efficient, a little less fast and burn a little more fuel.

And I’ve got a bloody nose wheel to keep the prop out of the muck, and believe me I fly out of bumpy little strip that my old tw Maule just loved to wallow around in.

But tailwheels are not an RV10 option and RV10s don’t need 3 blades except to look super cool.
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Bill Watson said:
Reading between the lines it sounds like you would have no problem what so ever building one and you would probably enjoy the process. There isn’t a lot of fabrication work at all. The fab work that is required is easy and not demanding at all.

But you do have to want to do it. If you really like flying, it helps to have something to fly while you build. After all, you don’t want to quit the activity that you are building towards (sorry).


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I suppose maybe fabrication isn't the right word. I think one of the bigger pains I have seen is the canopy and fiberglassing. I have no experience with fiberglass. I would have no idea what I was doing lol.
 
Bill Watson said:
But tailwheels are not an RV10 option
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Sure they are! They're just left as an exercise for the builder. There's nothing about the RV-10 that prevents you from building your own engine mount to hold main gear forward of the CG and adding a tailwheel mount. The only thing that prevents people from doing that is their own timidity. Everyone remembers Icarus, so who wants to be a Daedalus?

CC268 said:
I suppose maybe fabrication isn't the right word. I think one of the bigger pains I have seen is the canopy and fiberglassing. I have no experience with fiberglass. I would have no idea what I was doing lol.
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I came into my RV-14 project the same way. My only past fiberglass experience was, around age 7, watching my dad build a new rudder for the sailboat with a glued wood core and fiberglass (fabric and West System epoxy) covering. I haven't started the fiberglass or canopy parts of my plane yet, but before long I'll be out of excuses and have to learn. And here's how I feel about it: I learned the aluminum stuff just fine. Fiberglass is just something else to learn. I do wish I had spent more time at the Oshkosh fiberglass workshops this summer, but I think I'll be able to figure it out.

Something I think all airplane builders have in common is that, by the time they finish the plane, they are no longer intimidated by any type of project. Every project is just a sequence of steps that you do one after the other, learning new skills along the way as needed, until you get to the end of the project. Sure, overhauling the engine on your lawnmower might take 5 years, but you're not afraid to do it because you know that you can.
 
iamtheari said:
Sure they are! They're just left as an exercise for the builder. There's nothing about the RV-10 that prevents you from building your own engine mount to hold main gear forward of the CG and adding a tailwheel mount. The only thing that prevents people from doing that is their own timidity. Everyone remembers Icarus, so who wants to be a Daedalus?


I came into my RV-14 project the same way. My only past fiberglass experience was, around age 7, watching my dad build a new rudder for the sailboat with a glued wood core and fiberglass (fabric and West System epoxy) covering. I haven't started the fiberglass or canopy parts of my plane yet, but before long I'll be out of excuses and have to learn. And here's how I feel about it: I learned the aluminum stuff just fine. Fiberglass is just something else to learn. I do wish I had spent more time at the Oshkosh fiberglass workshops this summer, but I think I'll be able to figure it out.

Something I think all airplane builders have in common is that, by the time they finish the plane, they are no longer intimidated by any type of project. Every project is just a sequence of steps that you do one after the other, learning new skills along the way as needed, until you get to the end of the project. Sure, overhauling the engine on your lawnmower might take 5 years, but you're not afraid to do it because you know that you can.
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Nice! The RV14 is sweet. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm not an advocate for building. In a lot of ways I would really enjoy it. In other ways I would probably be quite overwhelmed. I think the biggest thing is time, which I just don't have at the moment. I imagine it would be tough to build a plane if you had a family to take care of (although I know plenty of people do it). We will see...maybe one day later in my career I will have the time (and money) to start such a project.
 
CC268 said:
Nice! The RV14 is sweet. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm not an advocate for building. In a lot of ways I would really enjoy it. In other ways I would probably be quite overwhelmed. I think the biggest thing is time, which I just don't have at the moment. I imagine it would be tough to build a plane if you had a family to take care of (although I know plenty of people do it). We will see...maybe one day later in my career I will have the time (and money) to start such a project.
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In fairness, I did purchase my RV-14 kit due in large part to a change in my life in mid-2017 that freed up a tremendous amount of time. I found in 2017 that I was wasting that time, to the tune of what I estimated to be 1,000 hours in a year (3 hours a day of re-watching TV series on Netflix for the fifth time really adds up fast), which I realized was enough to build an airplane. These are hours that I could not make real use of with work because I simply don't have the mental stamina to work another 1,000 hours in a year. In 2018 I have spent about 250 hours building the plane, so I'm not fully utilizing my estimated downtime (although I am probably using some of it for other things) but I feel like I made the right call by ordering the kit.
 
iamtheari said:
In fairness, I did purchase my RV-14 kit due in large part to a change in my life in mid-2017 that freed up a tremendous amount of time. I found in 2017 that I was wasting that time, to the tune of what I estimated to be 1,000 hours in a year (3 hours a day of re-watching TV series on Netflix for the fifth time really adds up fast), which I realized was enough to build an airplane. These are hours that I could not make real use of with work because I simply don't have the mental stamina to work another 1,000 hours in a year. In 2018 I have spent about 250 hours building the plane, so I'm not fully utilizing my estimated downtime (although I am probably using some of it for other things) but I feel like I made the right call by ordering the kit.
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I think it would be fun to order to toolbox just to practice riveting lol
 
iamtheari said:
Sure they are! They're just left as an exercise for the builder. ...

.... Fiberglass is just something else to learn. I do wish I had spent more time at the Oshkosh fiberglass workshops this summer, but I think I'll be able to figure it out.

Something I think all airplane builders have in common is that, by the time they finish the plane, they are no longer intimidated by any type of project. Every project is just a sequence of steps that you do one after the other, learning new skills along the way as needed, until you get to the end of the project. Sure, overhauling the engine on your lawnmower might take 5 years, but you're not afraid to do it because you know that you can.
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I really buy into the idea that building a kit like the 10 as designed is one thing, modifying the airframe by going with a tail wheel or retracts or a Mazda power plant is another. In the first case it’s easy to underestimate your ability to successfully complete, in the latter case it’s easy to overestimate. No problem but different.

Getting some FG training from a pro is invaluable but not required. I hated it so much I ended up fabricating a custom center console out of FG. The real problem is that FG was not Vans core competency. The parts kinda sucked. They’ve since addressed that.

The post build confidence level with doing ANYTHING is quite remarkable. Almost worth the build in itself.


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CC268, my background is quite similar to yours. Life-long car junkie, have changed out the suspension of just about every car I've owned, built a Porsche 914 with a Chevy LS1 V-8 conversion, model planes for 30 years etc. It sounds like you could handle the build, no problem. The dream of building you own aircraft just has to burn brightly enough inside to endure those long hours of construction. There are some very thankless tasks...it seems like about 1/3 of the time is devoted to deburring...every...single...piece of aluminum that makes up the airframe. Even so, I couldn't wait every day to get out in the garage and build the next control surface or subassembly. Finish the rudder? Hoist it high above your head and have someone take your picture with it. I did; it helps with motivation.

They say this a lot on VAF...one bite of the elephant at a time. Don't get overwhelmed with the enormity of the project; just laser-focus on the task at hand. Hit a bit of a wall? Research some more through the VAF archives or look at other people's build logs and ruminate on a solution. In the meantime, go build another piece. Hey, it'd be fun to make the elevator bellcrank right now, or whatever.

Fiberglassing is messy and one of my least favorite things, but I became pretty good at it. I highly recommend spending a little more money here and getting intersection fairings for the landing gear from Fairings Etc. The Van's stuff is far cheaper, but requires a ton of additional 'glassing and filling, where the other bits are pretty much ready for paint out of the box.

If you've wired simple circuits, you can handle a plane. My RV is bar far the most complicated wiring project I've undertaken...before that it was rc planes and cars, and the 914 required some additional wiring/relays. For me, the Vans wiring kit was a great starting point, as it includes a pretty basic schematic for the whole plane that I followed religiously. You just run one wire at a time, one circuit at a time, one switch at a time and pretty soon you're ready to tie-wrap the whole bundle together. Great video tutorials out there on wiring on EAA and SteinAir websites.

The panel is the piece de resistance, by far the most rewarding thing I did. Pretty easy to wire up the EFIS, transponder, etc. with serial ports minimizing the number of wires. So fun to sit in the "canoe" and mock up the panel, figuring out the perfect location for each switch, lamp and display. RV panels are like snowflakes...no two alike.

Motivational before/after pics--In the garage, circa 2015, and Oshkosh this year:

IMG_1943.jpg Doug Kott RV9A.jpg
 
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forget about fiberglass i have never punched a rivet in my life and heard the word Cleco the first time last week!! so @CC268 you can imagine how intimidating it is for me. over at VAF someone suggested taking up a 2 day class on RV building that EAA offers. i see there is one in Jan, i might go over there and spend a couple of days punching holes in someone else's aluminium. https://www.eaa.org/Shop/SAW/Workshop_Details.aspx?workshop=vans_rv_assembly
 
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