What constitutes Pilot in Command in this situation

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Aviator1945

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Aviator1945
www.flyaroundtheworldin30days.com

People I have read the FAR/AIM CFR title 14 Part 1 section 1.1 and part 91-3

So my question is does this 17 year old qualify as PIC in Command, I thought in such a situation one needs to do it SOLO ?:confused:
 
I am confused. Why would it need to be solo? And why wouldn't a 17 year old be PIC?
 
With 2pilots in the plane, which one is PIC should de decided before engine start. Sounds like they decided on the teenager, not his father. What FAR do you imagine this to violate?
 
Well every post on there starts with "we" so I'm not sure about that.

The "about" section starts out with some stuff about 9/11... Ok

There is one caption under a flying photo saying "PIC relaxing with his music and videos" huh?!

Site is registered to a Baber Muhammad Suleman who is a IFR PPL SEL and MEL

Baber said he set out on this trip with "Haris" there is a Haris Suleman (his son?) who is a student pilot as of Feb of 2014.

Based on that, Id say if the 17yr old is Haris he's only a student pilot and his dad Baber isn't a CFI, nor does it appear Haris is ever alone in the plane, so guessing Baber is leagaly PIC here.
 
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I read this in the first entry on the first page of the link in the first post:

Here are some other irrelevant facts to consider about this flight – in case you have not read the previous blogs : 1. Haris is an Instrument Rated Pilot in the US.​

No, I didn't read the previous blogs, nor look up any names in the FAA registry, nor did I leap to any conclusions on my own.

Did you read any of this yourself? Or can you just not accept that two pilots can decide which is PIC themselves, without regard to hours? On my way home from my PPL check ride with my thousand-hour-plus CFI, I was PIC after a similar discussion with a whopping 52.1 hours in my logbook.
 
I ran em in the FAA reg, the only Haris Suleman on there is a student pilot :dunno:

The plane is a N registered plane, so if that's him he ain't PIC with dad aboard.
 
James331 said:
There is one caption under a flying photo saying "PIC relaxing with his music and videos" huh?!

Site is registered to a Baber Muhammad Suleman who is a IFR PPL SEL and MEL

Baber said he set out on this trip with "Haris" there is a Haris Suleman (his son?) who is a student pilot as of Feb of 2014.

Based on that, Id say if the 17yr old is Haris he's only a student pilot and his dad Baber isn't a CFI, nor does it appear Haris is ever alone in the plane, so guessing Baber is leagaly PIC here.
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Remember, the FAA is always a couple of months behind on getting things into the database. They say they're at about May 20th checkrides right now. So, the kid could have easily turned 17 and passed his checkride since then.

Also, this entry says the dad has flown with our own John Collins, maybe he can shed some light on the situation.
 
From: http://flyaroundtheworldin30days.com/?cat=6

The planning for flying around the world started in earnest. Opened a spreadsheet to record and plan all the minute details. First things first….Haris is a Junior in high school with about 12 hours of instructor led flight training. Must get him his Private Pilot and Instrument ratings before we launch on our adventure. Two young budding instructors took up the challenge and will tag team to get Haris done in sixteen weeks plus one whole week of spring break. Being in school, Haris can only devote time on Friday afternoons and Sundays to complete his flight training…. and it has to be done in a low wing plane to make his transition to the Bonanza easier…. the paln is to allow Haris to be the Pilot in Command (PIC), while I will be his First Officer and the person whosmackshimonhisheadifhemakesmistakes. The adventure is ON ! There is a lot to be done and we have only 16 weeks to do it in.
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By the FAA's regulations, what constitutes "Pilot in Command" is being the final authority responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft as well as being legally qualified to act as PIC. So, who's making the final decisions in this venture? Read the whole article and see what you think.
 
As John King says, any time you have more than one pilot on board, it behooves you to work out in advance what the roles are going to be.

I've actually flown with Captain Ron (I was making a round robin of taking pilots to/from maintenance shop, I was returning the favor to another Grumman pilot who needed to pick up his plane at HGR and Ron needed a lift back from LNS so why not?). When Ron jumped in the right seat he stated he could be a passenger, a copilot, or an instructor, but we'd decide it before engine start. Settled for copilot.
 
I know you have to be 17 to get a PPL, the 17 old does have IFR training as per the father just got his PPL about a month and half before taking on this journey. !
James331 said:
Well every post on there starts with "we" so I'm not sure about that.

The "about" section starts out with some stuff about 9/11... Ok

There is one caption under a flying photo saying "PIC relaxing with his music and videos" huh?!

Site is registered to a Baber Muhammad Suleman who is a IFR PPL SEL and MEL

Baber said he set out on this trip with "Haris" there is a Haris Suleman (his son?) who is a student pilot as of Feb of 2014.

Based on that, Id say if the 17yr old is Haris he's only a student pilot and his dad Baber isn't a CFI, nor does it appear Haris is ever alone in the plane, so guessing Baber is leagaly PIC here.
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I know what FAR/AIM says about getting a PPL you have to be at least 17 .
My question basically is who is going to verify that the 17 year OLD flew the single engine plane around the world his DAD ? their is no CFI on board the aircraft or is this all really Kosher and above board ?
Greg Bockelman said:
May be. Still questions to be answered.
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DAD claims the 17 year old got his PPL IFR a month and half before taking on this Odyssey, So FAA registery must not have been updated ! but yes I believe it is the Father who is the real PIC with the young man doing some flying not to take away his glory but it saddens me to think when people claim "world" records of any kind without any authentications from a 3rd party that was my point ?

James331 said:
I ran em in the FAA reg, the only Haris Suleman on there is a student pilot :dunno:

The plane is a N registered plane, so if that's him he ain't PIC with dad aboard.
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Aviator1945 said:
DAD claims the 17 year old got his PPL IFR a month and half before taking on this Odyssey, So FAA registery must not have been updated ! but yes I believe it is the Father who is the real PIC with the young man doing some flying not to take away his glory but it saddens me to think when people claim "world" records of any kind without any authentications from a 3rd party that was my point ?
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I don't think they're going for a record. They're going to promote fundraising/awareness of an educational organization. I don't think anyone recognizes "youngest to" type records officially anyway since Jessica Dubroff.
 
DAD !:yes:

Ron Levy said:
By the FAA's regulations, what constitutes "Pilot in Command" is being the final authority responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft as well as being legally qualified to act as PIC. So, who's making the final decisions in this venture? Read the whole article and see what you think.
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Did anybody else read it with an Indian accent?? :rofl::rofl:
Sorry, I just can't help myself!:dunno:
I think these type flights are great adventures and that's about it. It certainly carries a fairly high risk factor, at least higher than I am willing to take at this point in my life, but it's a great father/son bonding time, no matter who is PIC. :D
 
N747JB said:
Did anybody else read it with an Indian accent?? :rofl::rofl:
Sorry, I just can't help myself!:dunno:
I think these type flights are great adventures and that's about it. It certainly carries a fairly high risk factor, at least higher than I am willing to take at this point in my life, but it's a great father/son bonding time, no matter who is PIC. :D
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What makes it high-risk?

Isn't this just a series of short hops?
:stirpot:
 
Aviator1945 said:
DAD claims the 17 year old got his PPL IFR a month and half before taking on this Odyssey, So FAA registery must not have been updated !
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It takes weeks to update.
but yes I believe it is the Father who is the real PIC with the young man doing some flying
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No way to know without being in the cockpit and seeing what's happening.
not to take away his glory but it saddens me to think when people claim "world" records of any kind without any authentications from a 3rd party that was my point ?
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As a result of the Dubroff accident, I don't think any "official" record-keepers like Guinness track "youngest pilot" any more, so it really doesn't matter unless they wreck or violate a regulation and the local aviation authority has to decide whom to hang, and if that happens, they'll use the criteria I mentioned in post #12 to make their choice.
 
Aviator1945 said:
I know what FAR/AIM says about getting a PPL you have to be at least 17 .
My question basically is who is going to verify that the 17 year OLD flew the single engine plane around the world his DAD ? their is no CFI on board the aircraft or is this all really Kosher and above board ?
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Who verifies you flew the airplane when you take a trip with another pilot on board? Who verifies you flew the airplane when you are flying solo?

I must be missing what you are asking.
 
Youngest pilot stuff is for the birds. I got my PPL handed to me by Transport Canada the day before my 17th birthday. Some media was there. There was incredible pressure on me to do it by family members that were pilots. In retrospect, I think it was more for them than me. I am flying the best now than I have ever flown because I am doing it for me now and not anyone else. I have my son the opportunity so we could have another activity together- but he loves it. Had he not, I wouldn't have forced him to learn to fly.

Just my 2 cents on the matter.
 
asgcpa said:
I have my son the opportunity so we could have another activity together- but he loves it. Had he not, I wouldn't have forced him to learn to fly.
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So your son loves it, but you forced him to learn to fly? ;)
 
asgcpa said:
No you read it wrong. I would not have forced him to fly.
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Methinks Kent was just poking fun at your wording which could be interpreted two very different ways (and FWIW your rewrite didn't change that :D).
 
With deep regret , It has been reported that Both Father & Son died when the plane they were piloting crashed taking off from Pago Pago, American Samoa, RIP Babar and Haris you both will be missed !
 
Perhaps a lesson can be learned here. Flying around the world, over oceans and inhospitable terrian, should not be taken lightly. It takes more then ideas and epaulets to do something like this.

As a higher time ATP and professional pilot I would have had to think long and hard before I would have taken that little single engine piston plane on that trip.

RIP
 
James331 said:
Perhaps a lesson can be learned here. Flying around the world, over oceans and inhospitable terrian, should not be taken lightly. It takes more then ideas and epaulets to do something like this.

As a higher time ATP and professional pilot I would have had to think long and hard before I would have taken that little single engine piston plane on that trip.

RIP
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OTOH, they could have crashed taking off from Indianapolis for a $100 hamburger. Without knowing any details except from the prior post, it doesn't sound like the crash had anything to do with an around-the-world trip, something just happened at a bad time.

From reading the blog earlier, it sounded like the father had done a really good job planning the trip for many months in advance, and I don't think he "took it lightly" at all... The crash is likely just a sad coincidence of bad luck at the wrong time that can happen to any of us, anywhere. Fly safe.
 
They were flying at night over water. I can't imagine any reason for a young low time pilot to take off in such conditions.
 
Everyone needs to do these people who want to do these stupid record attempts a favor and not support them. Not only are two people dead who shouldn't be dead, but we have yet another bad story in the news about these death trap contraptions we are flying and reinforces to the general public that this dangerous activity needs to be curtailed. Small planes need to be outlawed because look at how many of them are crashing all over the place.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
OTOH, they could have crashed taking off from Indianapolis for a $100 hamburger. Without knowing any details except from the prior post, it doesn't sound like the crash had anything to do with an around-the-world trip, something just happened at a bad time.

From reading the blog earlier, it sounded like the father had done a really good job planning the trip for many months in advance, and I don't think he "took it lightly" at all... The crash is likely just a sad coincidence of bad luck at the wrong time that can happen to any of us, anywhere. Fly safe.
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Well the kid JUST got his instrument ticket and was super low time, dad isn't a instructor and has a teenage (now new pilot) in the other seat.

(FYI the database still only has the kid as a student pilot, so if he really was a IFR PPL that must have been one he11 of a cram course).

Single engine non pressurized aircraft with no onboard radar.

Plenty of pics of them wearing pilot costumes complete with gold bars, pictures of the kid watching videos in the air.

I said it before on this thread, seems like this was a father son adventure, but it was more adventure then the pilots or aircraft were cut out for.
 
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vince said:
Everyone needs to do these people who want to do these stupid record attempts a favor and not support them.
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This wasn't a record attempt. :dunno:

steingar said:
They were flying at night over water.
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James331 said:
Well the kid JUST got his instrument ticket and was super low time, dad isn't a instructor and has a teenage (now new pilot) in the other seat.

Single engine non pressurized aircraft with no onboard radar.
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And mother nature and father Continental don't really give a rat's ass about any of that. They can bite you no matter how much experience or how many gadgets you have.

I said it before on this thread, seems like this was a father son adventure, but it was more adventure then the pilots or aircraft were cut out for.
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Bonanzas have flown around the world before, even without a lot of the equipment these guys had. Nothing wrong with the airplane.

The pilots, yes - And who knows why they were taking off late at night like that (10:00Z = 11PM local). I hope the fact that they seemed to be in frequent communication with family/handlers helps gives some insight into the decisionmaking process during the investigation.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
This wasn't a record attempt. :dunno:

...Bonanzas have flown around the world before, even without a lot of the equipment these guys had. Nothing wrong with the airplane.

The pilots, yes - And who knows why they were taking off late at night like that (10:00Z = 11PM local). ...
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Jessica Dubroff's pilot took off in super marginal conditions because they "had" to meet reporters at the next stop.

I hope that wasn't the motivator here, but if it was, then this link in the chain needs to be well publicized before the next 'youngest pilot to do X' gets killed.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
And mother nature and father Continental don't really give a rat's ass about any of that. They can bite you no matter how much experience or how many gadgets you have.
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Uhhh, yeah bout that. Seems every insurance company, employer, and person with a half once of common sense would disagree.

On a flight like this EXPERIENCE means everything.



Especially when you're already handicapping yourself with a limited performance aircraft like a little piston Bo.
 
James331 said:
Perhaps a lesson can be learned here. Flying around the world, over oceans and inhospitable terrian, should not be taken lightly. It takes more then ideas and epaulets to do something like this.

As a higher time ATP and professional pilot I would have had to think long and hard before I would have taken that little single engine piston plane on that trip.

RIP
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Not really ? just a week before this tragedy. 19 year old MIT student Matt Guthmiller(www.limitless-horizons.org) completed round the world trip . Same route in exactly the same kind of Bonanza, and last year it was 21 year old Jack Weigand, (www.facebook.com/solofFight2013) in a Mooney. And also I believe another 19 year old Australian Ryan Cambell , so lets not me judgmental ! In this I believe it was " fate is the Hunter"
 
flyingcheesehead said:
OTOH, they could have crashed taking off from Indianapolis for a $100 hamburger. Without knowing any details except from the prior post, it doesn't sound like the crash had anything to do with an around-the-world trip, something just happened at a bad time.

From reading the blog earlier, it sounded like the father had done a really good job planning the trip for many months in advance, and I don't think he "took it lightly" at all... The crash is likely just a sad coincidence of bad luck at the wrong time that can happen to any of us, anywhere. Fly safe.
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Thank you I totally agree !
 
flyingron said:
As John King says, any time you have more than one pilot on board, it behooves you to work out in advance what the roles are going to be.

~snip~

When he jumped in the right seat he stated he could be a passenger, a copilot, or an instructor, but we'd decide it before engine start. Settled for copilot.
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If someone started telling me what we'd decide and when we'd decide it I think I'd inform them they will be a ground spectator. Not that I don't agree communication is a good thing, but don't start ordering me around in my plane. Poor form.
 
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