What can I be doing wrong on power off stalls?

[LongRoadBob]

I just kick hard left rudder at the stall, and recover from the spin.
In all seriousness, what kind of actual pitch angle and speeds are you reaching in your "dive"?

It happens fast. It sure seems like a pretty good pitch angle. I’m pulling back with idle power, slowly on the yoke, I am ignoring the signs and that stall warning and continuing back pressure, slowly. At a point then the nose drops, I am not reacting until it begins dropping some, and then I “think” I am just releasing back pressure and suddenly I am looking down at the ground I could not see before when we were flying level. I tend to overestimate the bank angle in a climb, and banks, but it sure seems extreme and by my CFI’s sudden reaction (and he flies acro) we are certainly at an angle that is not good.

If I take into account my overestimation, just a guess, we are at around maybe 30 degrees downward pitch..I could be way off.

 

[bobmrg]

I like the video. The cartoonish plane pitches down more than it would in real life (IMO) but other than that the in-cockpit explanation is spot on. I think you may have an instructor problem, though, longroadbob...stalls should be introduced slowly so that you understand what is going on, not in the abrupt manner you describe. The "falling leaf" described earlier is an example. Maybe a heart-to-heart with your CFI or a ride with another CFI would help.

It has always bugged me that students think that stalls should be "done right" in order to pass the checkride. It is all about recognition and recovery, not the details.

Bob/Boob/whatever

 

[dtuuri]

...suddenly I am looking down at the ground I could not see before when we were flying level. I tend to overestimate the bank angle in a climb, and banks, but it sure seems extreme and by my CFI’s sudden reaction (and he flies acro) we are certainly at an angle that is not good.

THIS is your problem and this is the solution:

This isn't a blindfold maneuver, you need to keep ahead of the plane with your eyes on the horizon. Pan the horizon from wingtip to door post throughout the maneuver for bank and pitch information. Have it trimmed for landing and don't squeeze the yoke in a fist — keep an open palm.

You've been doing the stalls with horse blinders on, looking over the nose and waiting for the inevitable surprise. There's nothing to see out/up there in the windshield. The horizon is missing. Turn your head 45° and keep a sharp eye on the horizon for bank angle and pitch. If you enter the stall slowly, the pitch that the stall occurs is, say, one degree too high. All you need do is lower one degree and you're flying again. Easy, peasy.

 

[kaiser]

I had difficulties with stalls as a student pilot (disclaimer - still a student, checkride in under 2 weeks). I kept getting myself into overly aggressive stalls and my issue was I was entering them at too high of a pitch angle. Now to enter the stalls I find a pitch that gives me good deceleration, maintain it, and await the stall. Nose drops are very benign now and recover is as taught/you described - just relieve back pressure. (disclaimer C172)

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

You have to be closing in on 1000 hours by now.

How many hours do you have?
You have been a student for 3 years and 4 months now?

 

[LongRoadBob]

You have to be closing in on 1000 hours by now.

How many hours do you have?
You have been a student for 3 years and 4 months now?

Low hours. Explained above. It was many month since my last flight, er booked around 18-20 flights, each cancelled mostly due weather, sometimes no CFI available, or plane in for service.

The first year and then some was ground school. It’s been difficult to build time. So, no...not a lot of hours.

 

[eetrojan]

I could be wrong, but I also seem to recall OP Bob had a medical setback due to some sort of AC related poisoning at a hotel.

 

[ja_user]

Stalls don't have to be aggressive to learn them. You just need to set a pitch attitude that has you losing 1-2kts per second on the AI and be patient. In my opinion this is a more realistic was of doing it.

For power off stalls, setup the plane for landing (flaps, carb heat, pump, whatever). Set Speed to whatever you fly down final. Set the throttle to give you a 500fpm descent....

To enter the stall, pull the throttle and simply try to "extend the glide with pitch", by bringing the nose up to or slightly above the horizon. Then wait. To get it flying, you just need to let the nose come down below the horizon and add full power. Most of the time there really isn't any pushing needing, just releasing the back pressure.

 

[LongRoadBob]

I could be wrong, but I also seem to recall OP Bob had a medical setback due to some sort of AC related poisoning at a hotel.

Yes, got a lung full of pure ammonia from a minibar fridge. That messed me up for a while. But most of it is that we have one airplane, lots of students, and also others that rent it (at times for the whole weekend, one person), plane has been grounded a few times because of problems, and then normal service. Weather has been bad the last few years.
Summertime when the sun is up late, I can fly after work, and on weekends. But winter is the opposite, much less daylight hours, and then it is mondays and weekends.. my CFI is very flexible in hours, but of course also is flying acro, in competition, and sometimes away. When he is away and we’ve tried to get another CFI to take over so far it has never happened. We send out email asking and either no replies or replies that they need to use the time with their students.

And then we have the weather which this last year has been a lot of storms, bad weather.

I have a friend from when we met at the three day ground school intensive course (the rest was all online, and I struggled with technical Norwegian) before taking the exam. We passed at the same time. He JUST now got his PPL, and I guess he has about 50 or a little over hours. That was from starting a little under two years ago. Same time as I. He also struggled getting hours, and was frustrated but had a job where he could fly a good deal during the day. I watched the bookings (trying to fit in bookings for myself) and it was most often weekdays he was getting the most luck if weather held.

I have saved up a lot of vacation time, talked to my work and am planning on doing out days when the weather ought to be ok, the plane has enough hours before scheduled service during the daytime. That’s the plan. I had to cancel two flights now that could have gone, because the heat wave we have now is just hitting me too much. Zero energy and no way I am able to be effective, concentrated.

Stalls don't have to be aggressive to learn them. You just need to set a pitch attitude that has you losing 1-2kts per second on the AI and be patient. In my opinion this is a more realistic was of doing it.

For power off stalls, setup the plane for landing (flaps, carb heat, pump, whatever). Set Speed to whatever you fly down final. Set the throttle to give you a 500fpm descent....

To enter the stall, pull the throttle and simply try to "extend the glide with pitch", by bringing the nose up to or slightly above the horizon. Then wait. To get it flying, you just need to let the nose come down below the horizon and add full power. Most of the time there really isn't any pushing needing, just releasing the back pressure.

I would like to try that way, but so far the instruction I’m getting is, after preliminary checks, straight and level flying, I pull throttle back to idle, keep the nose up to not lose altitude, keep adding back pressure, stall horn, buffeting, etc. and wait until the stall breaks. Recovery should be release back pressure, and THEN Full throttle (and I believe he has said “after positive rate of climb” with throttle. I will have to check again if he did say that.

Last flight on Monday I got us into what seemed radical nose down. He recovered along with me doing it.
He said to not go so far down with the nose, I tried again, same thing. Once more, same...he then demonstrated twice, and I still thought I was doing the same thing as he in his demonstration. Tried again, still didn’t have it.

I had done this same maneuver before and it went ok, after the first time I ever tried it when I did the same.
I think the advice here can help, definitely thinking of just using fingers on the yoke so no thumb wrapped around it in case I am pushing forward instead of just lessening back pressure. Also am wondering if I am doing something aggressive to get us in the stall. Maybe too eager to force it. I’m just not sure.

I was just asking here to hear tips and think a little more about it. Of course the real course of action is next time I fly I go over what happened with my CFI, hear if he saw or knows what I was doing wrong, and maybe I will ask about doing it more as you mention here...at least to see, and maybe after that goes ok try this type of stall again.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I would like to try that way, but so far the instruction I’m getting is, after preliminary checks, straight and level flying, I pull throttle back to idle, keep the nose up to not lose altitude, keep adding back pressure, stall horn, buffeting, etc. and wait until the stall breaks. Recovery should be release back pressure, and THEN Full throttle (and I believe he has said “after positive rate of climb” with throttle. I will have to check again if he did say that.

That is the standard way of teaching it, with one exception. And perhaps some between the lines detail will help.

"Recovery should be release back pressure, and THEN Full throttle." Yes. The sequence recognizes, as mentioned earlier, the the release of back pressure is what increases the angle of attack and recovers from the stall. Power is what minimizes the loss of altitude and initiates the climb back to altitude.

But...

• It's not really two separate events. R he time between is minimal. A delay is expected in the early learning stage to imprint the importance of AoA, but when learned, the delay is almost nonexistent.
• The release of back pressure is not simply letting go and letting the airplane do whatever the heck out wants. It's a controlled release in which the attitude (and AoA) is returned to a normal flight regimen. I think it was @dtuuri who said "one degree" lower than where the stall took place. I wouldn't take that too literally, but it really tells you that returning the attitude to around level flight or even a shallow climb is all one really needs.

THEN Full throttle (and I believe he has said “after positive rate of climb” with throttle. No. I'm sure you misunderstood. The added full throttle is what stops the descent and gives you the positive rate of climb in the standard recovery. You are not expected to establish a positive rate of climb without throttle any more than you are expected to start moving a car when the light turns green without putting your foot on the gas pedal.

Since you didn't mention flaps, sounds like at this point, you are doing a no-flap power off stall. "...after positive rate of climb" becomes more relevant in the with-flaps version,

 

[Clip4]

If a stall occurs when the wing exceeds the critical angle of attack (usually ~17 degrees) how many degrees to do you have to change the AOA to break the stall?

A. 1 degree.

Move the control wheel forward about 4” inches, the nose will appear just below the horizon, the airspeed will be increasing at a very slow rate and the altitude loss will be minimal.