what are options if IA causes damage to your plane?

[rbridges]

My issue is somewhat minor but aggravating. I have an older mooney with manual flaps. The pump had a small leak at its last annual, so I told him to replace the seals. The A&P under him took the pump itself apart, and there are two teflon ring inserts. They apparently are very soft and he notched them up pretty good removing them with his instrument. This led to an internal leak which frustrated them. They spent a lot of time troubleshooting it. I got ideas on mooneyspace and used a nylon hammer to help seat a ballbearing against the inserts to help reform the seal. It worked well on the ground, but in the air, the flaps go back up due to a very small leak that is still present. I measured the rings during the assembly and took photos just in case, so I had some custom made by someone using teflon sticks and a lathe.

I talked with my IA recently (it's been nearly a year, but it took a lot of legwork to get these new inserts fabricated since the company that makes them went out of business in the 70's), and he doesn't want to eat the time/labor to replace them. He mentioned the time he already spent with it, and I reminded him that it all originated from his A&P damaging them. I also told him that I have spent hours researching the problem and I am the one who paid to have new inserts fabricated. He said he would think about it and get back to me.

I want to be patient, but it's coming up on a year. What options do I have?

 

[Doc Holliday]

Find another mechanic.

 

[DaleB]

Yeah, that. You now know how this guy is going to handle things more complicated than a tire change... I'd find someone who is a little more competent and willing to fix his mistakes.

 

[steingar]

Depends on how much you like this mechanic. You've done him a solid, there are a lot of aircraft out there with hydraulic flaps. More C's than all the other Mooneys put together.

 

[Bell206]

What options do I have?

Without knowing both sides to this story I can't offer any options as this point other than make sure this one issue is worth looking for another mechanic. But as a side note, if you had these inserts fabricated as an owner produced part it is not a slam-dunk a mechanic will accept them as a legal part. Perhaps this might be the reason he prefers not to perform the work? I've installed a number of owner-produced parts but there are certain requirements that must be followed per Part 21. Maybe review and substantiate these requirements for the inserts with your mechanic and see if he agrees?

 

[rbridges]

Without knowing both sides to this story I can't offer any options as this point other than make sure this one issue is worth looking for another mechanic. But as a side note, if you had these inserts fabricated as an owner produced part it is not a slam-dunk a mechanic will accept them as a legal part. Perhaps this might be the reason he prefers not to perform the work? I've installed a number of owner-produced parts but there are certain requirements that must be followed per Part 21. Maybe review and substantiate these requirements for the inserts with your mechanic and see if he agrees?

That wasn't even mentioned. I think he feels he invested a lot of time already and just doesn't want to deal with it. I can understand his frustration, but it all originated from his A&P damaging the inserts.
I'll look at the specifics to make sure it 100% qualifies as an owner-produced part, but my options are pretty slim. No one has it since new ones appear to be non-existent.
Ive got pictures of the damaged inserts, and I have a text where he admitted that his guy damaged the teflon rings when he removed them.

 

[NordicDave]

My opinion, too many owners expect A&P’s or IA’s to be able to fix almost anything on any plane. Great post, as a reminder to find someone who is a veteran servicing that model plane or part assembly.

In general I like to break out the parts manual and order all of the small wear or one time use parts inside the sub assembly like washers, O-rings, cotter pin‘s, etc.

My comment in no way is an editorial on the OP’s post and his particular situation or selection of mechanic for the repair.

 

[iamtheari]

There is a middle ground somewhere that both you and the IA can live with. It will require you both to compromise. You're apparently willing to compromise. If the IA isn't, then you should take your business to a new IA whose customer service values are better. (And, depending on the dollars involved, lawyer up against the old IA. But that is probably chasing bad money with good on this issue.)

 

[Snowmass]

Small claims court. Cost is very low and preponderance of the evidence and common sense rules. I have found this to be the best way to get justice in this lawyer corrupted country.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Small claims court. Cost is very low and preponderance of the evidence and common sense rules. I have found this to be the best way to get justice in this lawyer corrupted country.

Good luck with that on something like this.

 

[rbridges]

Small claims court. Cost is very low and preponderance of the evidence and common sense rules. I have found this to be the best way to get justice in this lawyer corrupted country.

We're probably talking a few hundred dollars worth of labor and hydraulic fluid at this point. I didn't know if there were some channels up the FAA chain I could send a report. I'm just kinda hurt that he's potentially calling it a day. I'm going to give it a few weeks to let him get back in touch with me.

 

[NordicDave]

Small claims court. Cost is very low and preponderance of the evidence and common sense rules. I have found this to be the best way to get justice in this lawyer corrupted country.

The cost of the Teflon washers are likely not worth the negative reputation of be litigious or the aggravation. Work a compromise like iamtheari suggested. Buy the parts have him fix it. You’ll both have a better holiday season. Stuff happens.

 

[rbridges]

My opinion, too many owners expect A&P’s or IA’s to be able to fix almost anything on any plane. Great post, as a reminder to find someone who is a veteran servicing that model plane or part assembly.

In general I like to break out the parts manual and order all of the small wear or one time use parts inside the sub assembly like washers, O-rings, cotter pin‘s, etc.

My comment in no way is an editorial on the OP’s post and his particular situation or selection of mechanic for the repair.

good point. we had the mooney service manual. All the seals were ordered ahead of time. For whatever reason, that teflon insert is the unicorn horn. Does not exist. I even called LASAR whos is arguably the most informed mooney source around, and he had nothing to offer.

 

[rbridges]

The cost of the Teflon washers are likely not worth the negative reputation of be litigious or the aggravation. Work a compromise like iamtheari suggested. Buy the parts have him fix it. You’ll both have a better holiday season. Stuff happens.

I've already had them manufactured, and I've already paid for them. If I were an IA, I would just do it myself.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I've already had them manufactured, and I've already paid for them. If I were an IA, I would just do it myself.

You don't need to be an IA. If you want to do it yourself, find an A&P that will let you do the work under his supervision and sign off the job. Ask around.

 

[Doc Holliday]

We're probably talking a few hundred dollars worth of labor and hydraulic fluid at this point. I didn't know if there were some channels up the FAA chain I could send a report. I'm just kinda hurt that he's potentially calling it a day. I'm going to give it a few weeks to let him get back in touch with me.

Not worth filing a complaint with the FAA, it won't get you anywhere but frustrated.

 

[FORANE]

Had a similar situation. Got charged by the A&P for the time to do unwanted work and the parts to replace what he damaged and his time to put it back to how it was before he broke it. That mechanic doesn't get my business anymore.

 

[Lachlan]

Don’t burn hangars, errr, uh, bridges...

 

[rbridges]

fair enough. I appreciate everyone's feedback. Just needed to vent.

 

[hindsight2020]

Ugh. Every time I read one of these threads, RV-10 prices start to sound cheap to me again.

 

[rbridges]

In all fairness, I think the IA is very thorough. It was their first time breaking into a mooney flamp pump, and they didn't realize the parts were so delicate. Probably could have happened to anyone. I just believe you make things right.

 

[rk911]

everybody has a boss. move on up the line or seek a different shop.

 

[danhagan]

everybody has a boss. move on up the line or seek a different shop.

Going after the IA's wife won't solve a THING!

 

[rk911]

Going after the IA's wife won't solve a THING!

LOL...I meant the other boss.

 

[Bill Greenwood]

Our FBO installed the wrong vac pump he didn't know the part no. now had an addition on the end. The big shot at the corp office in Chicago ignored my phone call and two letters so I went to small claims court. The ass phoned me almost midnight before the court hearing, and then only offered half price refund. He sent the poor a& P who was a friend to court without a leg to stand on, I had the paperwork showing part no installed and the other correct one. I won easily, about $2200. The mafia type did pay it within a week which surprised me.

 

[PaulS]

Here's my take on this, the OP should just pay up to get it fixed. The pump was broken and needed to be fixed. Did the AP muck up the Teflon rings? maybe, maybe not, but this pump sounds like it is 40+ years old, the dinged up rings could have caused the orings to fail, the rings may have softened up enough over the years that it was impossible to remove them without dinging them up or maybe the guy dinged them up, suck it up and pay the guy to fix it. It's not like he dropped your airplane off the lift.

Expecting to pay as little as possible to fix something, then expecting someone else to pay when other problems crop up due to the attempt at a fix is not realistic in my book. The rings getting buggered was a risk in this repair and were it my, I would expect to pay to get the pump working.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

This is way too small potatoes for me to even bother with. It sounds like <$500?
Not saying your stance is wrong; it's just that you have to pick your battles.
I do chase small things still but I think I have a better feel for what the cost:benefit is and if this were me, I'd fergetaboutit. I feel your pain and believe in what you say however.

(BTW from the trouble they had with it, and the poor end result it sure sounds like they were hacking open an appliance without a service or parts manual. That is 'frowned upon'.)

 

[rbridges]

Here's my take on this, the OP should just pay up to get it fixed. The pump was broken and needed to be fixed. Did the AP muck up the Teflon rings? maybe, maybe not, but this pump sounds like it is 40+ years old, the dinged up rings could have caused the orings to fail, the rings may have softened up enough over the years that it was impossible to remove them without dinging them up or maybe the guy dinged them up, suck it up and pay the guy to fix it. It's not like he dropped your airplane off the lift.

Expecting to pay as little as possible to fix something, then expecting someone else to pay when other problems crop up due to the attempt at a fix is not realistic in my book. The rings getting buggered was a risk in this repair and were it my, I would expect to pay to get the pump working.

The flap pump is a neat setup once you look it over. I think they thought the rings were nylon and therefore a little rough with them. The flaps worked 100% before the annual and not since. If you look closely, you can see gouges where the ballbearing no longer seats correctly. The original problem was a small amount of fluid on the pump lines from a leaking seal. It had nothing to do with the rings. There are no external leaks, so the original problem was addressed. This problem is different.

 

[rbridges]

This is way too small potatoes for me to even bother with. It sounds like <$500?
Not saying your stance is wrong; it's just that you have to pick your battles.
I do chase small things still but I think I have a better feel for what the cost:benefit is and if this were me, I'd fergetaboutit. I feel your pain and believe in what you say however.

(BTW from the trouble they had with it, and the poor end result it sure sounds like they were hacking open an appliance without a service or parts manual. That is 'frowned upon'.)

I agree. He offered to fix it at a lower shop rate but I'll just go elsewhere. I've lost confidence at this point. They did have a service manual; I supplied it. Lol.