West Jet Chairman Pleads With Pilots During Labor Dispute

[CC268]

EDIT: Apparently this video is several years old. Didn't realize that at the time of posting. However, it was posted yesterday on reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/com...uring_labour_dispute/?st=jhjylfgb&sh=fd8dd431

This fella made 13 million last year, in addition to his 22 million in stock. Pilots, PLEASE! If you aren't willing to reduce your wages to 40-60K a year and aren't willing to work 19-20 days a month, you will destroy West Jet! We need to be more like Sunwing! Think of the children! It must be the millennial's...

The executives aren't being paid full market salary. Oh the humanity! But...you evil pilots are being paid OVER market salary! I bet the executives at the airlines can't wait for fully autonomous airliners.

 

[CC268]

I'm not a career pilot btw, at least not yet , but it is very interesting to see the general population's perspective on pilots as a whole. It's actually amazing how many engineers I work with (I work in the Aerospace industry - the Space industry specifically) that truly believe that pilots do nothing other than "babysit" the autopilot. I was talking to an engineer a few days ago who emphatically explained how airliners take off and land completely on their own now a days! *face palm*

Sadly I think few people really know or understand how a pilot interfaces with modern technology. They also don't realize what it takes to get to the airlines. Some how a pilots job has been whittled down to nothing more than a glorified bus driver who presses a few buttons, sits back and enjoys the ride.

I love this comment (apparently a retired military pilot):

The quickest way to lose my attention is to gripe about “how bad we had it in the old days."

The fact that you worked 20 days a month for $16k means nothing to me. That was a crap schedule with crap wages and you knew it. You didn’t like it then, so why would anyone like it now? The difference is that now the “who has the power” has shifted.

 

[Velocity173]

I'm not a career pilot btw, at least not yet , but it is very interesting to see the general population's perspective on pilots as a whole. It's actually amazing how many engineers I work with (I work in the Aerospace industry - the Space industry specifically) that truly believe that pilots do nothing other than "babysit" the autopilot. I was talking to an engineer a few days ago who emphatically explained how airliners take off and land completely on their own now a days! *face palm*

Sadly I think few people really know or understand how a pilot interfaces with modern technology. They also don't realize what it takes to get to the airlines. Some how a pilots job has been whittled down to nothing more than a glorified bus driver who presses a few buttons, sits back and enjoys the ride.

Well we’ve beat this to death in the past but let’s face it, automation has made flying a heck of a lot easier.

I won’t comment on the airliner side but I can tell you in helicopters, the advances in automation that have come out in just the last 20 years have taken the majority of IMC flying from the pilot. Guy I work with used to fly FO in S92s in the Gulf. Said he never flew the thing. All he did was type on the FMS and operate the radios and it doesn’t take a genius to do that. The Capt then did the intitial take off, transfered responsibility to the AP. The AP flew the aircraft out to the rig, flew the approach down to mins, then the Capt took over and landed.

The UH-60M can fly itself all the way to the ground in brown out conditions. This picture below while it may be poking fun, it really sums up flying from the old days to today. You basically have two pilots with their feet on the floor and hands in their laps. They’ve become more of systems managers vs hands on pilots. There’s hands on flying but not nearly as much as before. For the most part, that’s a good thing.

Do I care about automation taking over? Nope, if it can fly a GPS approach without getting spatially disoriented, then why not let it do all the work. What’s sad is, there are plenty of pilots in my field that there isn’t a chance in hell that I would be in the back of their aircraft, in IMC without an AP. That’s the problem, over reliance on automation.

 

[Challenged]

According to the comments, this video is 4 years old and was a response to the votes to unionize at that time; still interesting nonetheless.

 

[CC268]

According to the comments, this video is 4 years old and was a response to the votes to unionize at that time; still interesting nonetheless.

This was posted yesterday? All the comments are within the past 24 hours.

 

[CC268]

Well we’ve beat this to death in the past but let’s face it, automation has made flying a heck of a lot easier.

I won’t comment on the airliner side but I can tell you in helicopters, the advances in automation that have come out in just the last 20 years have taken the majority of IMC flying from the pilot. Guy I work with used to fly FO in S92s in the Gulf. Said he never flew the thing. All he did was type on the FMS and operate the radios and it doesn’t take a genius to do that. The Capt then did the intitial take off, transfered responsibility to the AP. The AP flew the aircraft out to the rig, flew the approach down to mins, then the Capt took over and landed.

The UH-60M can fly itself all the way to the ground in brown out conditions. This picture below while it may be poking fun, it really sums up flying from the old days to today. You basically have two pilots with their feet on the floor and hands in their laps. They’ve become more of systems managers vs hands on pilots. There’s hands on flying but not nearly as much as before. For the most part, that’s a good thing.

Do I care about automation taking over? Nope, if it can fly a GPS approach without getting spatially disoriented, then why not let it do all the work. What’s sad is, there are plenty of pilots in my field that there isn’t a chance in hell that I would be in the back of their aircraft, in IMC without an AP. That’s the problem, over reliance on automation.

View attachment 63358

Well...maybe this guy is right then? Maybe pilots are only worth 40-60K salaries

 

[denverpilot]

What did the exec do during his difficult and trying $50,000/day workdays?

(Assuming he worked every week of the year and five days a week. Adjust as desired. 13,000,000 / 52 / 5 )

It’s always fun to figure out executive compensation by the day whenever you hear one whining about being underpaid or begging those under them to accept lower wages.

 

[Challenged]

This was posted yesterday? All the comments are within the past 24 hours.

I was just referencing this information from canadian15 in that thead:
"This is actually an old video from previous labour negotiations prior to WestJet being unionized under ALPA. I was a pilot for WestJet and I can tell you first hand things are bad there for the pilots. I moved on to another company because pay and working conditions were horrible in comparison to where I am now and even worse if you compare it to american airlines."

 

[kayoh190]

Well...maybe this guy is right then? Maybe pilots are only worth 40-60K salaries

It doesn’t work like that. Whether you’re talking about pilots, engineers, teachers, hookers, or whatever - they get paid what they do because that’s what it takes to get people to do the job. Regional pilots are making a ton more money than they did just five years ago because the extra money is what it took to get butts in the seats. It had nothing to do with the realities of the work itself.

 

[CC268]

It doesn’t work like that. Whether you’re talking about pilots, engineers, teachers, hookers, or whatever - they get paid what they do because that’s what it takes to get people to do the job. Regional pilots are making a ton more money than they did just five years ago because the extra money is what it took to get butts in the seats. It had nothing to do with the realities of the work itself.

YES. Exactly. I completely agree with you. It's no different than any other industry. My comment back to Velocity was more of rhetorical question.

 

[CC268]

I was just referencing this information from canadian15 in that thead:
"This is actually an old video from previous labour negotiations prior to WestJet being unionized under ALPA. I was a pilot for WestJet and I can tell you first hand things are bad there for the pilots. I moved on to another company because pay and working conditions were horrible in comparison to where I am now and even worse if you compare it to american airlines."

Ohh I see now. Nonetheless...prompts an interesting discussion.

 

[CC268]

What did the exec do during his difficult and trying $50,000/day workdays?

(Assuming he worked every week of the year and five days a week. Adjust as desired. 13,000,000 / 52 / 5 )

It’s always fun to figure out executive compensation by the day whenever you hear one whining about being underpaid or begging those under them to accept lower wages.

Lol...I try not to have a cynical outlook on people at the top of the pyramid, but I agree with you.

 

[CC268]

Well we’ve beat this to death in the past but let’s face it, automation has made flying a heck of a lot easier.

I won’t comment on the airliner side but I can tell you in helicopters, the advances in automation that have come out in just the last 20 years have taken the majority of IMC flying from the pilot. Guy I work with used to fly FO in S92s in the Gulf. Said he never flew the thing. All he did was type on the FMS and operate the radios and it doesn’t take a genius to do that. The Capt then did the intitial take off, transfered responsibility to the AP. The AP flew the aircraft out to the rig, flew the approach down to mins, then the Capt took over and landed.

The UH-60M can fly itself all the way to the ground in brown out conditions. This picture below while it may be poking fun, it really sums up flying from the old days to today. You basically have two pilots with their feet on the floor and hands in their laps. They’ve become more of systems managers vs hands on pilots. There’s hands on flying but not nearly as much as before. For the most part, that’s a good thing.

Do I care about automation taking over? Nope, if it can fly a GPS approach without getting spatially disoriented, then why not let it do all the work. What’s sad is, there are plenty of pilots in my field that there isn’t a chance in hell that I would be in the back of their aircraft, in IMC without an AP. That’s the problem, over reliance on automation.

View attachment 63358

I wasn't trying to scoff at automation. I agree it is a good thing. I'm just saying that quite frankly, the public reduces the knowledge set and skill set that pilots have developed over many years to "well the plane flies itself". That simply isn't true.

 

[jaybee]

If I had a dollar for every time the AP did some weird ass **** just in the 18mos I've been at the airlines I'd probably have a couple hundred dollars

 

[Velocity173]

Well...maybe this guy is right then? Maybe pilots are only worth 40-60K salaries

No idea about their working conditions so I won’t comment. I can tell you I’m over paid. Don't tell the company that though because we just got a raise because we keep complaining to them about being under paid.

 

[jordane93]

Frontier is dealing with the same thing. Record profits and they’re still paying their Airbus pilots $39/hr. First year regional FOs make more than they do. Hopefully they get the contract they deserve.

 

[CC268]

Frontier is dealing with the same thing. Record profits and they’re still paying their Airbus pilots $39/hr. First year regional FOs make more than they do. Hopefully they get the contract they deserve.

Interesting you brought up Frontier. A good friend of mine recently went over to Frontier. I think he left...

 

[kayoh190]

Frontier is dealing with the same thing. Record profits and they’re still paying their Airbus pilots $39/hr. First year regional FOs make more than they do. Hopefully they get the contract they deserve.

It’s only a matter of time - Spirit just got theirs and I’m sure JetBlue will vote yes on their upcoming TA. Frontier isn’t going to be able to drag this out too much longer, IMO.

 

[CC268]

It’s only a matter of time - Spirit just got theirs and I’m sure JetBlue will vote yes on their upcoming TA. Frontier isn’t going to be able to drag this out too much longer, IMO.

Sadly the execs will have to settle for the lower trim package on their new yachts. Maybe a few less lobster dinners.

 

[Kansas Flyer]

No idea about their working conditions so I won’t comment. I can tell you I’m over paid. Don't tell the company that though because we just got a raise because we keep complaining to them about being under paid.

My Dad used to say that he was "grossly overpaid, but not nearly enough". I think that sums it up nicely.

 

[mscard88]

**** airline management. Been thru similar.

 

[cowman]

I too wonder how any one person could be worth paying multiple millions of $ when we have so many intelligent capable people out in the world making much less.

Then again, at the risk of starting a political argument, I can't imagine the board of directors and shareholders of these companies would pay out that kind of money for a CEO if they didn't think they'd be getting a return on him for their investment so to speak. Or maybe $13M is a relatively small piece of the overall budget vs taking a risk on an unknown person? From the outside looking in it doesn't seem to make sense but I know a lot of the time things that seem outrageous to an outsider have a good reason behind them when you dig into it.

 

[denverpilot]

I too wonder how any one person could be worth paying multiple millions of $ when we have so many intelligent capable people out in the world making much less.

Then again, at the risk of starting a political argument, I can't imagine the board of directors and shareholders of these companies would pay out that kind of money for a CEO if they didn't think they'd be getting a return on him for their investment so to speak. Or maybe $13M is a relatively small piece of the overall budget vs taking a risk on an unknown person? From the outside looking in it doesn't seem to make sense but I know a lot of the time things that seem outrageous to an outsider have a good reason behind them when you dig into it.

Look at the BoD lists sometime. They all sit on each other’s Boards. It’s a very inbred club. And as Carlin would have said, “You’re not invited.”

Especially tech companies. Good lord they’re inbred. They often buy each other’s crap too, without any evaluation as to whether the thing actually works in their company.

“Just some new multimillion dollar IT management software I heard about on the golf course...” (... right after I promised her I’d not vote her out of her job making the crappy software since I sit on her BoD.)