Weekly Commute: Is It Practical?

[NordicDave]

I'm almost finished with my PPL. Was in a 150hp 172, then couldn't fly for like two years, because they sold them off. Bought a 182 to finish, and I wish I would've just gone that route to begin with. My insurance is $2214 through Starr... $1M/$100k $125k hull. Its got 1305lb useful, 92 gallon tanks, and cruises at 145ktas, so it's actually usable for trips while also being a nice trainer.

Curious which model is your 182? If fixed gear, it seems about a $1000 high.

I did half my training in a 172SP and then transitioned to a 182P. For me, really glad my first pattern work, landings, and solo was in a 172. I appreciated the added simplicity at first. After that, adjusting to the higher rate of acceleration & speed, constant speed prop, and absolute necessity to use trim while working through the pattern to land was better understood after transitioning from the 172. 182 is just a fantastic airplane, good all round performer. The cabin size along is worth it. The the front seat area is 3" wider with a higher ceiling, and back seat area is 50% larger than the 172.

 

[ktup-flyer]

Curious which model is your 182? If fixed gear, it seems about a $1000 high.

I did half my training in a 172SP and then transitioned to a 182P. For me, really glad my first pattern work, landings, and solo was in a 172. I appreciated the added simplicity at first. After that, adjusting to the higher rate of acceleration & speed, constant speed prop, and absolute necessity to use trim while working through the pattern to land was better understood after transitioning from the 172. 182 is just a fantastic airplane, good all round performer. The cabin size along is worth it. The the front seat area is 3" wider with a higher ceiling, and back seat area is 50% larger than the 172.

81 R model....the cabin width is one of my favorite parts. There's enough weight, power, and complexity there to make it feel like a real airplane, but not enough to get you in trouble unless you really **** up.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

It’s not a trainer. It’s a 120hrs and 3/4 through the instrument rating plane.

It’s the category of plane he’ll need to do this on a regular basis. 4hrs in an archer or 3.5 in a 182 gets old really quick. It also burns a lot of fuel. In a 175kt plane this becomes a reasonable trip.

Oh boohoo it’s gonna cost $3500 for the first years insurance. Compared with the transaction cost of buying the wrong plane first and upgrade after a year, the difference in insurance between a 182 and a complex plane is pocket change.

Things must have changed. Because I partnered with a guy in an older C model about 20 years ago. He was buddies with a guy that owned a relatively new Ovation and was invited to partner in it. He had about 200 hours including 100 in his own Mooney and it was going to cost about double that add him to the Ovation policy IIRC.

Around that same time I knew a CFI next airport over who had a wealthy private student. A month or two before his checkride this student bought a brand new Encore. He could not get insurance to fly it no way no how. Listing his CFI as the only left seat pilot was the only way he could get coverage. I don't know if he ever got to the point where he could solo in it.

 

[keatre]

Yeah. Congratulations guys, we ran off another potential pilot in only three hours and two minutes. A new record!

This is probably the saddest part of this discussion.

 

[weilke]

Things must have changed. Because I partnered with a guy in an older C model about 20 years ago. He was buddies with a guy that owned a relatively new Ovation and was invited to partner in it. He had about 200 hours including 100 in his own Mooney and it was going to cost about double that add him to the Ovation policy IIRC.

Again, that 'double' is pocket change compared with buying a 182, spending money on pre-purchase travel, pre-buy, sales/use-tax, getting first year squawks sorted out, listing it for sale, selling at a loss and THEN buying the plane you needed in the first place.

Around that same time I knew a CFI next airport over who had a wealthy private student. A month or two before his checkride this student bought a brand new Encore. He could not get insurance to fly it no way no how. Listing his CFI as the only left seat pilot was the only way he could get coverage. I don't know if he ever got to the point where he could solo in it.

I believe I suggested '120 hrs and half way through the instrument' as the point when one could look at that kind of plane, not 'student pilot'.

The aviation insurance market has changed, for the right amount of money someone with a private ticket wont have a problem to find insurance for a Bonanza or Mooney. They would probably have a requirement for 25hrs of transition training from a instructor with a minimum of X hours in type, but getting that done as part of an instrument ticket is not going to be all that difficult.

 

[ktup-flyer]

Again, that 'double' is pocket change compared with buying a 182, spending money on pre-purchase travel, pre-buy, sales/use-tax, getting first year squawks sorted out, listing it for sale, selling at a loss and THEN buying the plane you needed in the first place.

You ****ed up if you’re selling a 182 at a loss

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Again, that 'double' is pocket change compared with buying a 182, spending money on pre-purchase travel, pre-buy, sales/use-tax, getting first year squawks sorted out, listing it for sale, selling at a loss and THEN buying the plane you needed in the first place.

Maybe in your world $6500 for insurance is pocket change but not in mine and not in his. Shrug.

I believe I suggested '120 hrs and half way through the instrument' as the point when one could look at that kind of plane, not 'student pilot'.

He was a student when he bought it. But he got his private a short time later. Even as a private he could not get insured to fly it solo nor left seat with a CFI in the right seat. Turned out to be a great deal for the CFI, the owner not so much.

 

[weilke]

You ****ed up if you’re selling a 182 at a loss

Yeah, because they always go up in price, even if you put 300hrs* on one in the year between buying and selling .





* (480nm x 2 x 40wks)/135kts = 284hrs +/- an IPC and some private flying

 

[weilke]

Maybe in your world $6500 for insurance is pocket change but not in mine and not in his. Shrug.

Compared with the cost to buy and sell the wrong plane and compared with the cost to fly a plane on business for 284hrs/year* it is pocket change.

He was a student when he bought it. But he got his private a short time later. Even as a private he could not get insured to fly it solo nor left seat with a CFI in the right seat. Turned out to be a great deal for the CFI, the owner not so much.

Different times, different insurance markets. 5 years ago I was able to get 2mil smooth on an A36 with 0 time in type. The first year I needed an IPC 'in type' every 6 months, annually thereafter.



* 284hrs x $125 direct operating cost = $35,500/year (excluding hangar, insurance, databases).

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Compared with the cost to buy and sell the wrong plane and compared with the cost to fly a plane on business for 284hrs/year* it is pocket change.

How did 284 hours/year become part of the conversation?

 

[CJones]

Good grief. This thread reminded me of why I left PoA for a couple of years. Full of pi$$ and vinegar. Guy comes here asking if he should get his PPL so he can potentially commute 360nm and within the first page of posts, there is a picture of a family and their subsequent crashed airplane and someone else basically saying 'no way, you'll kill yourself and you're an idiot for even thinking of doing this'. Way to be great ambassadors for aviation, folks.

 

[weilke]

How did 284 hours/year become part of the conversation?

A rough estimate based on the parameters in the initial post. 90 segments by the first week of September. That's 22.5 round trips so far.

The actual number doesn't matter, but weekly trips of 480nm are going to be 200+ hrs per year As this is a miles based proposition and not hopping from gravel bar to gravel bar, the additional speed of a retract plays into the economics of the project. Less hours, less fuel, more miles between overhauls.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

I guess you didn't read the same initial post I did. Because the post I read said a commute happened 2-3 times/month and the distance between airports is 360nm. In a 135kt airplane a 360nm flight is 2.6 hours or 5.2 round trip. Making that trip 2-3 times per month, figure it at 2.5 times per month so 30 trips per year which is 156 hours total in a 135kt bird. Still not a small number but a bit different from 284 hours/year.

 

[Hank S]

A rough estimate based on the parameters in the initial post. 90 segments by the first week of September. That's 22.5 round trips so far.

The actual number doesn't matter, but weekly trips of 480nm are going to be 200+ hrs per year As this is a miles based proposition and not hopping from gravel bar to gravel bar, the additional speed of a retract plays into the economics of the project. Less hours, less fuel, more miles between overhauls.

Wasn't he talking the number of airline legs he's flown since nonstop flights are not an option? I do remember 360 nm direct from home to the other location GA airport.

 

[NordicDave]

Good grief. This thread reminded me of why I left PoA for a couple of years. Full of pi$$ and vinegar. Guy comes here asking if he should get his PPL so he can potentially commute 360nm and within the first page of posts, there is a picture of a family and their subsequent crashed airplane and someone else basically saying 'no way, you'll kill yourself and you're an idiot for even thinking of doing this'. Way to be great ambassadors for aviation, folks.

Yup. I come and go as well.

This place is definitely "troll central". In contrast BeechTalk forum is strictly factual and polite. This place is polite like Facebook's 50% political mime posts attacks.

I initiated a thread a few weeks ago about the growing scarcity of DPE's in many FSDO's and the latest trend towards grueling 3-4 hour orals for PPL in central California. More than half the replies were "Ah, got mine in 1.5hrs back in 75' in Kentucky". No value add.

 

[Stephen Poole]

Why am I getting flashbacks of all the times I had to go to the principal's off?

Thanks for all of the input! You never know if you don't ask, right? I push myself hard and have high expectations, but I'm also reasonable. Reason says this isn't a practical option for me. I'll save my flying days for another time.

Benny, on the off chance that you might see this, I'm probably a lot older than you (I'm 62) and I'd like to fly, too. My mission(s) wouldn't be a regular commute; I would treat my plane as a perfectly acceptable option when conditions are right. I wouldn't fly it from coast to coast, but I would fly it -- in a heartbeat -- from, say, the Fayetteville, NC area (Raeford, 5W4) to see my mother in Columbia, SC (CAE) or to visit other family scattered in the southeast. If I'm still living in Alabama, I'll fly my wife to Atlanta (not ATL, one of the nearby GA airports) for treatment at Emory U ... *IF* I'm confident that the weather will hold and that my plane and I are ready to make the trip.

I've been lurking here and occasionally posting for some months now. I've learned a lot. Ignore the naysayers who just dismiss it out of hand. I know people who regularly do just what you're talking about, and/or who regularly fly their planes for business. It's actually quite common.

Take the advice of those here who want you to get instrument rated, make sure your plane is in good condition, and practice, practice, practice. Then fly that commute. Take pictures. Enjoy the view.

Good luck to you.

 

[weilke]

Wasn't he talking the number of airline legs he's flown since nonstop flights are not an option? I do remember 360 nm direct from home to the other location GA airport.

90 segments is 45 one ways and 22.5 return trips. It's early september, so he has 4/12th of the year left which should bring the number of trips to 30. The only number I could find was 550sm, thats 477nm.

Either way you cut it, that's going to be a lot of flying.

 

[Hank S]

90 segments is 45 one ways and 22.5 return trips. It's early september, so he has 4/12th of the year left which should bring the number of trips to 30. The only number I could find was 550sm, thats 477nm.

Either way you cut it, that's going to be a lot of flying.

90 segments with a stop is 2 legs each way or 45 trips, 22.5 roundtrips. The airline trip is also longer, 500+ nm vs. 360 nm direct by GA. It's a lot less time and distance, and fewer trips, than you calculated.

 

[weilke]

90 segments with a stop is 2 legs each way or 45 trips, 22.5 roundtrips. The airline trip is also longer, 500+ nm vs. 360 nm direct by GA. It's a lot less time and distance, and fewer trips, than you calculated.

I didn't notice the mention of 360nm vs 550 driving miles.

360nm x 2 x 30 trips
= 21,600nm
= 160hrs in a 182 @ 135kts (2:40cruise per leg)
= 123hrs in a V-tail or Mooney @ 175kts (2:05 per leg)

As I said in my first post in the thread: Any plane will work.
The travel budget will be somewhere between $18,000 and $25,000 in direct operating cost per year (+ the occasional full price backup ticket and/or a decent car at the destination).

 

[Kenny Phillips]

I will state that in the 1990s I flew my Skyhawk on a dozen 150-250 NM business missions as a [very] low-time pilot, all VFR. I lived near KLUK at the time, and every client was near a county or muni airport, and all were more than happy to pick me up (as those airports were closer than the large commercial airports, and most of them wanted to see the plane!)
I will further state that I shouldn't have flown about half of those, due to questionable weather. If anyone wants to fly on my current company's business they'll need an instrument rating.

 

[PPC1052]

Another issue that came up with my company is that the group life insurance, nor accidental death is coverd by personal plane.

I know that my firm's group insurance policy does, in fact, cover death in a general aviation plane. I specifically asked the insurance company representatives when they were here.

 

[PPC1052]

Hey I think his idea rocks, his choice of planes is on point if he’s in a non FIKI location, the only issue is his lack of experience, or rather not understanding his lack of experience is the issue it is.

It would be rather odd, though, if he managed to earn his private and/or instrument, and acquire a plane, and somehow not end up with more experience than he has now. Sure, it happens that some people end up with more plane than sense. But it's not fair to judge his future decision making based on his current knowledge base.

 

[James331]

It would be rather odd, though, if he managed to earn his private and/or instrument, and acquire a plane, and somehow not end up with more experience than he has now. Sure, it happens that some people end up with more plane than sense. But it's not fair to judge his future decision making based on his current knowledge base.

Only judged him off his own words

 

[Shopshirt]

Good grief. This thread reminded me of why I left PoA for a couple of years. Full of pi$$ and vinegar. Guy comes here asking if he should get his PPL so he can potentially commute 360nm and within the first page of posts, there is a picture of a family and their subsequent crashed airplane and someone else basically saying 'no way, you'll kill yourself and you're an idiot for even thinking of doing this'. Way to be great ambassadors for aviation, folks.

Yup. I come and go as well.

This place is definitely "troll central". In contrast BeechTalk forum is strictly factual and polite. This place is polite like Facebook's 50% political mime posts attacks.

I initiated a thread a few weeks ago about the growing scarcity of DPE's in many FSDO's and the latest trend towards grueling 3-4 hour orals for PPL in central California. More than half the replies were "Ah, got mine in 1.5hrs back in 75' in Kentucky". No value add.

I've noticed it too. Some of these posts act like the OP is going to just hop in a plane and cruise on up to the flight levels in IMC to cross the Atlantic. I don't think the OP had an irresponsible view of things and came to the site asking for guidance on how to get there. The training alone is self-limiting and will generally delay a new pilots plans to commute on a regular basis.

Also, this thread will be followed up by a "Why is GA Dying" post...I present to you Exhibit A.

 

[Salty]

Anybody that would let posts on a forum stop them from learning to fly, doesn’t have the passion to see it through anyway. JMO.

 

[Sam D]

Anybody that would let posts on a forum stop them from learning to fly, doesn’t have the passion to see it through anyway. JMO.

I'll see your opinion and raise you mine . I didn't go into flying with an unstoppable passion. It grew as I got more into aviation. Any number of things could have turned me off at the start.

 

[Crashnburn]

My aviation passion was dormant for a long time. It was rekindled when my flight out of Wichita was delayed a full day because the airport was fogged in. At that time, I figured I could have made it back to So. CA a lot faster than a full day waiting to fly, and another day of flying. I also thought the fog wouldn't be a problem for me.

Subsequently, I've learned that if the airlines are grounded, I should be, too. So, I couldn't have made it back faster than the airline travel. However, it did wake up my passion, and while life is in the way, I'm doing what I can to be ready to finish my PPL as soon as I can when life allows.

A six hour drive down the Interstate 5 High Speed corridor turns into a less than 3 hour flight, in a Liberty XL, at MPG better than my wife's SUV gets, and almost as good as my hybrid SUV gets. Of course, the useful load is a lot less, but we don't have to use a hard sided suitcase, so that saves weight. And, the low useful load would make a good reason to buy and finish a project GlaStar. I'm a big guy and I don't have a miniature wife, but she's relearning how to pack light!

Luckily, in CA, the weather is severe clear for most of the year. There were only a few fogged in days for my ab inito training at KRHV in a Citabria.

I guess the point is, a gentle breeze will fan a spark into a flame, and a gale will most likely blow it out.

 

[simtech]

Dang this thread is still going on after the dude bailed the forum in a few hours.