Weak IFR Clearance Skills

rpadula

rpadula

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What is the best (right?) way to get an IFR clearance & release from a non-towered airport?

Since I fly from a towered field, I'm quite out of practice on this. The AIM isn't so clear (Section 5-2?). Don Brown says hey meathead, get it on the ground, not in the air. I'm thinking it's in the AFD, but it's a little hard to decode...

For example, here at LZU, it says CLNC DEL = 121.8 (normal) and it's 134.0 when the tower is closed. I think 134.0 is Atlanta App and I'm skeptical about being able to radio them on that frequency from the ground. We'll see. If I can't, then next down the hierarchy is what? The usual Atlanta departure freq (126.975)? Again, questionable from the ground.

Next would be a GCO, if available, correct?

And the after that, you call the FSS listed for the field from a phone?

AOPA has a great article on their site, but I guess I'm feeling a little mic-fright having not practiced.

http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/article.cfm?article=1645


-Rich
 
If there is a clearance delivery given it will usually work on the ground. And it is the best one to use.

Sometime you can reach Center or Approach on the ground so I try that if no CD.

If no radio to ATC I like to call them. Relay though FSS can be a pain and take a long time. So I ask when I file for a number to call for a clearance.

Last choice it to use FSS either RCO or phone.

If it is good VFR, I will launch and get clearance in the air. But I'd rather get on ground where I can lookup any reroutes, etc.

Eric
 
I've used RCOs, GCOs and Phones. In the NC "mountains", most ATC facilities cannot hear you until you're at least 4500' AGL. I call the state-wide CLNC Delivery 800-number and beg for a 20 minute slot with varying success. I haven't had much success picking my clearance in the air. Either Center's not listening on the freq that's listed on the approach plate or they're annoyed that I'm asking for my clearance. I hate pi$$ing off ATC, so I go thru great lengths to avoid that. The FSS folks have always been kind to me.

The current IFR magazine has a good article this month on "filing to the boonies" that talks about getting INTO uncontrolled fields.

I use Comm1Radio's Clearances on Demand to practice. Great product, usual disclaimers.
 
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The cell phone interface with my lightspeed's work well, but I do prefer using the radio to get ahold of center instead.

Otherwise, I just give them the normal info as if they were ground/clearance delivery at my home airport.

Next time you're there, just listen in when you're on the ground to see how clear they come in. If they're not busy, you might just even say hi. :)
 
The best choice is an RCO -- essentially, a transceiver on the airport with a direct landline to the controller. Next best is a GCO, which is a transceiver on the airport hooked up to a phone which dials the controller via telephone lines. If they publish a CD freq for a nontowered airport (or for when the tower is closed), it's one of those two. After that comes a cell phone to call a direct number at the controlling agency (should be available locally from the FBO or local pilots, or often written on the pay phone by the ops shack), followed by a cell phone to FSS for a relayed clearance. You should do this before starting to get your routing, and then from the end of the runway to get your release for takeoff (thus avoiding problems with tight void times) Last choice is the pay phone to get a clearance and void time before start.
 
Ron Levy said:
Last choice is the pay phone to get a clearance and void time before start.
Click to expand...
What pay phone? They've even taken the one at KSIK down (the access to Lambert's Cafe!). Cellphones are everywhere....unless you happen to have forgotten or let yours run down.....sigh.
 
I've had excellent assistance from FSS when other means weren't there. Call in for the weather brief and file the flight plan. Ask about calling them form the plane for clearance with void time. Tell them I'll call them when ready to depart: they seem to like that.

I've usually preflighted and am ready to do a final walk around and begin my pre-start checklist when I call. Crank the plane up, do the run up and call from my cell with the mic in my headset. The longest I've waited using this method has been about eight minutes. They seem to like to know you're ready to depart and give you a shorter void time. I've done this in several places: even one with a GCO that I couldn't get to work.

I have departed VFR when going a long distance and the inclement weather was over 100 miles off. But, as Ron has stated, be ready to land or stay VFR if they can't work you in. I have had to fly entirely through Chicago Center's area before I could pick up an IFR clearance in the air.

Best,

Dave
N2024Q
 
bbchien said:
What pay phone? They've even taken the one at KSIK down (the access to Lambert's Cafe!). Cellphones are everywhere....unless you happen to have forgotten or let yours run down.....sigh.
Click to expand...

And all the more reason to get a cellphone that allows roaming on analog if you're out of digital service area.
 
I file at least 2 days a week from a little airport in Philly's airspace. If the weather's below 1000', I file from the airport and have to call Philly on the cell to get the clearance. They're just like a tower - all they want to know is your tail number, when you want to depart and what runway you're on. The phone call sounds like this:

"Good morning Philly, this is N6309Q; would like to pick up my IFR clearance from Quakertown to Teterboro. We're ready now on runway 29."

If the weather's ABOVE 1000' I file from a VOR near a towered field. Once I'm close to the VOR, I radio that airport's approach to pick up the clearance. I never had a problem and the call is very simple:

"Allentown Approach, Mooney 6309Q 16 mi south of FJC, 2000' for 5000', would like to pick up my IFR clearance to Teterboro."

Keep the calls simple and the controllers will be happy to help you. ...\ jack
 
MooneyJack said:
If the weather's ABOVE 1000' I file from a VOR near a towered field. Once I'm close to the VOR, I radio that airport's approach to pick up the clearance. I never had a problem and the call is very simple:
Click to expand...
I have had trouble getting clearances that way -- most of the time it works, but not always, especially coming out of Farmingdale (FRG) or in the Baltimore-Washington area. So I won't launch that way unless the weather's good enough to fly the whole trip VFR, and for me, that would be a whole lot better than a 1000-foot ceiling.
 
Ron Levy said:
I have had trouble getting clearances that way
Click to expand...

Here is the secret to Jack's success.

"Allentown Approach,..."

Trying the same trick with Philadelphia approach when launching from an airport closer to PHL may or may not work based on time of day and a few other variables.

Len
 
rpadula said:
Since I fly from a towered field, I'm quite out of practice on this. The AIM isn't so clear (Section 5-2?). Don Brown says hey meathead, get it on the ground, not in the air.
Click to expand...

I hate to say it, but in this particular case Don Brown is the one being a meat head. Picking up the clearance on the ground or in the air is very much ATC facility dependent. Try for an air clearance in Potomac approach airspace and you'll get your naval reemed. Try for a ground clearance in Sacramento airspace in conditions anything less than serious IMC and you'll get your naval reemed. IOW, it all depends. I usually ask ATC what they prefer and then plan/act accordingly, my comfort level & safety overriding as necessary.
 
Update

Hi all,

Thanks for all the good advice.

I got off to a slower start Thursday morning, and fired up the engine about 7 minutes before Gwinnett tower opened. So, I just picked up my IFR clearance from them as usual after my runup.

I did ask the flight service briefer about it and he did concur that 134.0 should be reachable from the ground as the AFD says. Maybe Bob G. can verify if that's true on one of his midnight departures ;)

While airborne, I did continue to learn about picking up clearances and heard just about every combination of what's suggested here. I heard several calls to Jax Center from aircraft both on the ground and ones that were already airborne. Both sounded like they worked out equally well.


-Rich
 
Ron Levy said:
I have had trouble getting clearances that way -- most of the time it works, but not always, especially ... or in the Baltimore-Washington area.
Click to expand...

Back in my Sacramento, CA days the normal mode was to launch out of Cameron Park and call Sac approach for the IFR during the climb. If you called via a phone line looking for IFR Sac approach would gently hint that they preferred an airborne clearance. On a cross-the-country flight I tried that technique launching out of College Park. Fifteen years later my navel is still raw from the chewing the Washington approach controller handed me. It is definitely a regional thing, but when uncertain it behoves the pilot to call from the ground. If that's the wrong answer ATC will let you know in a kindler, gentler manner than the airborne call will elicit.
 
I fly from a field under Philly's Bravo not to far from Jack. No way can I get my clearance over the radio on the ground. Philly App will give me a hold for release clearance over the phone from the FBO. When I'm #1 I call them on the cell for release.Saves me some Hobbs and I have never had a problem.
 
Out of S-37, we do not have a radio freq on the ground that will net a clearance. We call Harrisburg approach over land-line or cell and get the clearance, with a "released at .... if not off by... please call us". No problem. If VFR at the airport, we could get clearance in the air. Harrisburg usually seems to prefer the ground call, although they are never too happy about having to give us a window to get out. Ce la vie.

Jim G
 
Ed's point is well taken.

Occasionally, I plan to leave before Stinson Tower opens. There is a remote clearance frequency to SAT that you can use outside of tower hours. However, if you call SAT from the ground within 15-20 minutes of the time the tower opens, they'll either ignore you or ask you to call tower when it opens.

The solution, then, is to take off VFR and pick up the clearance in the air. Assuming that weather permits.

Some places will be very unhappy if you try that.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
Back in my Sacramento, CA days the normal mode was to launch out of Cameron Park and call Sac approach for the IFR during the climb. If you called via a phone line looking for IFR Sac approach would gently hint that they preferred an airborne clearance. On a cross-the-country flight I tried that technique launching out of College Park. Fifteen years later my navel is still raw from the chewing the Washington approach controller handed me. It is definitely a regional thing, but when uncertain it behoves the pilot to call from the ground. If that's the wrong answer ATC will let you know in a kindler, gentler manner than the airborne call will elicit.
Click to expand...
That is still the case. I have never had a problem picking up an airborne clearance from Norcal Approach. Only if the weather is really low (a very rare occurrence here in sunny Northern California) do I use the telephone.
The other day at Fort Stockton I called approach on the ground and was told that I could either wait for a lengthy period or take off VFR and get an airborne clearance. When I called again airborne the controller was ready with the clearance and thanked me for my help.
Stephen.
 
Re: Update

Ron Levy said:
They do -- as long as the weather's good and IFR traffic is light. OTOH...

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X18578&key=1 (summary)
http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR92-01S.pdf (full report)
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Yeah, that's a classic cautionary tale. Rome's not too far from here. And my brother worked at the local Bruno's supermarket when that happened.

What gets me about this discussion thread is that the preferred procedure "is a local thang." Guess I have to fill up the experience bag somehow....


-Rich
 
Re: Update

rpadula said:
What gets me about this discussion thread is that the preferred procedure "is a local thang." Guess I have to fill up the experience bag somehow....
Click to expand...

If the weather is good enough for a VFR departure my usual method when arriving at a new airport is to ask the controller on the way in, "I have an IFR on file out of here in xx minutes. Would you prefer I depart VFR and then request the clearance when airborne or call you on the phone before departure?"
 
I fly from an uncontrolled field (PHN) and I almost always pick up my clearance in the air just after departure. Our field used to have an RCO that worked great but the previous airport manager figured he could save the county a few bucks by getting rid of the RCO and putting in a GCO. That damn GCO never ever works. The one and only time I actually made contact with anyone it kept hanging up on me. Everyone complains about it.

I recently had a discussion with our current airport manager about the GCO and she said "Yeah, I'm trying to get the RCO reinstated". She said the trouble is that it's like a to 7 year process to get an RCO. I have no idea why it would take so long.

Anyway, back to the subject, I guess it really depends on what's available at the airport you're leaving. At my field I can't contact approach or center from the ground so if the weather isn't legal VFR in the vicinity of the airport I call FSS from a cell phone, if it is VFR in the vicinity of the airport I take off and contact approach in the air. For me that can sometimes be difficult too because approach for my home field is a military facility and they often have no knowledge of my IFR flight plan. I guess the communications between FSS and the military approach facilities could use some improvement. So in those cases I often have to remain VFR for some time until they can get my flight plan and clearance from the FAA.

Getting the RCO back would be the best thing I can think of for my field. It's currently a real pain in the butt. I feel so good when I'm departing a controlled field on an IFR flight. Ground Control or Clearance Clearance Delivery makes things just so easy compared to what I'm used to.

Jeannie
 
Sorry to revive this ancient thread, but the title described me to a "T". I'm trying to understand the different kinds of communication facilities available for obtaining IFR clearances on the ground. My CFII and I flew into a nearby untowered field this evening that had a GCO and I started to call "Clearance Delivery..." at which point my instructor said "that ain't how it works". I felt like a total idiot! Now I know that a GCO dials ATC via a landline when keyed multiple times. I think he keyed it 5 times, but elsewhere I've read 4, so I'm wondering which it is, and also how GCOs work.

Also, earlier in this thread someone mentioned using an RCO to pick up a clearance, but all the RCOs I've ever used were on FSS frequencies only. So I'm confused, how do you use an RCO to get your clearance? Does ATC relay the clearance through FSS or are there RCOs that operate on ATC frequencies?
 
If you were at OZW, the GCO is 4 clicks and they have to be sloowww or it wont work. What I thought was slow and enough for keying lights did not work. It connects to Detroit Clearance. 6 clicks and it goes to FSS.

Its fun departing there towards the west since Detroit handles your initial call and then immediately hands you off to Lansing. The airspace for the controlling agencies splits the airport in two so any approach to 13 will be with Lansing while anything for 31 will be Detroit.

RCOs connect to FSS - the A/FD has which one that is - if they are still around.

We had an odd experience once at JXN where ground requested we call on LAN approach (tied to VOR so it works on the ground) for our clearance since the tower would be closed when we were ready to go. Well our plan was lost (filed earlier over the phone) and we were told to call FSS. We then ended up with DIRECT even though we had a nice airways plan for my practice that we had to negotiate with ATC. Im pretty sure we went back and forth from approach to flight service at least 3 times.

Try to always ask ATC if there is frequency they are reachable from on the ground since it works so much better than dealing with FSS and relaying info. Someone mentioned that previously in the thread.
 
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azure said:
Sorry to revive this ancient thread, but the title described me to a "T". I'm trying to understand the different kinds of communication facilities available for obtaining IFR clearances on the ground. My CFII and I flew into a nearby untowered field this evening that had a GCO and I started to call "Clearance Delivery..." at which point my instructor said "that ain't how it works". I felt like a total idiot! Now I know that a GCO dials ATC via a landline when keyed multiple times. I think he keyed it 5 times, but elsewhere I've read 4, so I'm wondering which it is, and also how GCOs work.

Also, earlier in this thread someone mentioned using an RCO to pick up a clearance, but all the RCOs I've ever used were on FSS frequencies only. So I'm confused, how do you use an RCO to get your clearance? Does ATC relay the clearance through FSS or are there RCOs that operate on ATC frequencies?
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_communications_outlet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_communication_outlet
 
MooneyJack said:
I file at least 2 days a week from a little airport in Philly's airspace. If the weather's below 1000', I file from the airport and have to call Philly on the cell to get the clearance. They're just like a tower - all they want to know is your tail number, when you want to depart and what runway you're on. The phone call sounds like this:

"Good morning Philly, this is N6309Q; would like to pick up my IFR clearance from Quakertown to Teterboro. We're ready now on runway 29."
Click to expand...
When I do this in Phili I usually get. "N1716R, unable at this time, call back in 15 minutes." Then 5 minutes, then I might get a clearance. The one time I contacted Phili approach in the air on a VFR day I was chewed out about not getting my clearance on the ground. Sigh

If the weather's ABOVE 1000' I file from a VOR near a towered field. Once I'm close to the VOR, I radio that airport's approach to pick up the clearance. I never had a problem and the call is very simple:

"Allentown Approach, Mooney 6309Q 16 mi south of FJC, 2000' for 5000', would like to pick up my IFR clearance to Teterboro."
Click to expand...
Now I just file to pick up my clearance at ENO VOR and contact Dover approach, bypassing Phili approach if at all possible.
 
I use Clearance Delivery on the cell unless there is a dedicated CLC freq.

(I was a bit surprised to reach ATL App a few weeks ago on the ground at CSG)
 
azure said:
Sorry to revive this ancient thread, but the title described me to a "T". I'm trying to understand the different kinds of communication facilities available for obtaining IFR clearances on the ground. My CFII and I flew into a nearby untowered field this evening that had a GCO and I started to call "Clearance Delivery..." at which point my instructor said "that ain't how it works". I felt like a total idiot! Now I know that a GCO dials ATC via a landline when keyed multiple times. I think he keyed it 5 times, but elsewhere I've read 4, so I'm wondering which it is, and also how GCOs work.
Click to expand...
It varies from place to place, but usually involves at least 3 clicks. In some places, one number of clicks gets you ATC and another number of clicks gets you FSS (e.g., click 3 for ATC, click 5 for FSS). There's usually a sign somewhere on the airport or a note in the A/FD telling what to do.
Also, earlier in this thread someone mentioned using an RCO to pick up a clearance, but all the RCOs I've ever used were on FSS frequencies only. So I'm confused, how do you use an RCO to get your clearance? Does ATC relay the clearance through FSS or are there RCOs that operate on ATC frequencies?
Click to expand...
There are RCO's which are hooked to FSS, and RCO's which are hooked to ATC for clearances. You'll know there's an ATC RCO for clearances by looking on your approach charts. If there's a "Clearance Delivery" frequency listed where there's no tower, it's an RCO. See the approach chart for Georgetown DE (KGED) as an example -- the CLNC DEL 125.55 at the top. On that freq, you're talking to someone in Dover Approach who can issue your clearance and release. Tune it, key the mike, and start talking just as you would cold-calling any other ATC facility. Just make sure when you call that you include "on the ground at Georgetown" so they know where you are and which button to push to talk to you. BTW, on Jepps, these ATC RCO freqs are only on the airport diagram page, not every approach chart for the airport as it is on NACO charts.
 
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For the record the cell phone number is 888-766-8267. I've had good luck with it when I can't use the radio.

Joe
 
Areeda said:
For the record the cell phone number is 888-766-8267.
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That's the nationwide universal IFR clearance number. You're talking to a LockMart person who's functioning like an FSS person -- you call them, they call ATC, they get a clearance and void time, they read it to you, and off you go. However, it's always more efficient to call ATC directly if possible.
I've had good luck with it when I can't use the radio.
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Ditto, except one time when the ATC facility they called wasn't picking up the phone.

BTW, a word on GCO's -- you have to keep talking to keep the line open. If the controller says "stand by," and nobody talks for like 10 seconds or whatever, the system disconnects. Key the mike every 5 seconds or so and say something if you want to stay connected.
 
Re: Update

rpadula said:
Hi all,

Thanks for all the good advice.

I got off to a slower start Thursday morning, and fired up the engine about 7 minutes before Gwinnett tower opened. So, I just picked up my IFR clearance from them as usual after my runup.

I did ask the flight service briefer about it and he did concur that 134.0 should be reachable from the ground as the AFD says. Maybe Bob G. can verify if that's true on one of his midnight departures ;)

While airborne, I did continue to learn about picking up clearances and heard just about every combination of what's suggested here. I heard several calls to Jax Center from aircraft both on the ground and ones that were already airborne. Both sounded like they worked out equally well.


-Rich
Click to expand...

If I am the Bob G to whom you refer, I know nothing about operations in the southeast other than what I picked up when flying deliveries out of Vero Beach...my first landing was usually west of Georgia.

The take-away message from this thread is that there is no hard-and-fast method that applies everywhere. With very rare exceptions, you will find that controllers will work with you. Difficult to say how much help you would get from a LockMart employee in Leesburg, Va. The A/FD is always the place to start your search.

Bob Gardner
 
My preference is to launch VFR if able and pick up in the air.

Next preference is a GCO.

Last preference is to call FSS. The relays take forever (at least here in Chicagoland).





rpadula said:
What is the best (right?) way to get an IFR clearance & release from a non-towered airport?

Since I fly from a towered field, I'm quite out of practice on this. The AIM isn't so clear (Section 5-2?). Don Brown says hey meathead, get it on the ground, not in the air. I'm thinking it's in the AFD, but it's a little hard to decode...

For example, here at LZU, it says CLNC DEL = 121.8 (normal) and it's 134.0 when the tower is closed. I think 134.0 is Atlanta App and I'm skeptical about being able to radio them on that frequency from the ground. We'll see. If I can't, then next down the hierarchy is what? The usual Atlanta departure freq (126.975)? Again, questionable from the ground.

Next would be a GCO, if available, correct?

And the after that, you call the FSS listed for the field from a phone?

AOPA has a great article on their site, but I guess I'm feeling a little mic-fright having not practiced.

http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/article.cfm?article=1645


-Rich
Click to expand...
 
Ron Levy said:
It varies from place to place, but usually involves at least 3 clicks. In some places, one number of clicks gets you ATC and another number of clicks gets you FSS (e.g., click 3 for ATC, click 5 for FSS). There's usually a sign somewhere on the airport or a note in the A/FD telling what to do.
Click to expand...

According to my AF/D, for GCO's 4 clicks = ATC; 6 clicks = FSS
 
djshannon said:
According to my AF/D, for GCO's 4 clicks = ATC; 6 clicks = FSS
Click to expand...

Not always. At KGEV 4 clicks gets you Lockeed Martin clearance delivery. 6 clicks gets you nothing.
 
Well, I'm embarrassed again at having missed the obvious. It's in the OZW A/FD entry after all, as Cap'n Ron suggested. The section is called NAV/COMM/WEATHER REMARKS which is why I ignored it, since what does this have to do with weather? But anyway it's clear as day. 4 clicks for CLNC, 6 clicks for FSS, and they have to be S-L-O-W 1 second on 1 second off.

And yes, it was OZW! Pretty obvious right? There aren't many GCOs left in MI. The one at my home base was decommissioned earlier this year. Now we have to shut down and call DTW TRACON. Luckily they often give us a comfortable window to get off.

Anyway thanks to all who replied to my clueless query.

I've yet to find an RCO in MI that goes through to ATC. There is a CLNC freq. at BEH (untowered) that might qualify, though it's not labeled as an RCO in any directory I've tried.
 
azure said:
I've yet to find an RCO in MI that goes through to ATC. There is a CLNC freq. at BEH (untowered) that might qualify, though it's not labeled as an RCO in any directory I've tried.
Click to expand...

IF it's a CLNC frequency, then you just dial that into your radio, like any other frequency. That (usually) implies you can get them on the ground. "XYZ Clearance, Cessna 123AB at Nowhere Field, IFR to BigTown." They'll come back with your clearance.

Sometimes they ask you how soon you're ready, and say call us when you're #1 (like at my field), out west they might just give your clearance without a void time. Couldn't believe it the first time I got that. Sometimes clearance will ask if you can take off VFR and ask you to get the clearance when airborne. That also surprised me.

Note: a Clearance freq in the AF/D is no guarantee. They publish one for Phila Wings (my field) and it doesn't work, there are hills betw the airport and Philly Intl. You have to call them on an 800 number.

Best option is to ask a local at the airport for the best way to get a clearance. They'll know if picking it up in the air is an option, or if the CLNC frequency works, or if there is a phone number to call. It varies by airport.
 
The only time I've had to call any number other than the AFSS number is at Shannon (KEZF). There, you have to call Potomac, and it's always a wait. They advise against departing VFR and picking up in the air, there, and when in doubt, listen to the locals.

Otherwise, the 800 Clc number works for me.
 
azure said:
I've yet to find an RCO in MI that goes through to ATC. There is a CLNC freq. at BEH (untowered) that might qualify, though it's not labeled as an RCO in any directory I've tried.
Click to expand...

Last time I was there the GCO at Bellaire (ACB ) was working and would connect you to ATC (Minneapolis).
 
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