We will NEVER see this - A Short Rant on Petroleum

Ok. So then, where does it go from there. Its in the air, but to enter the air, it had to displace somewhere, using the same theories, since air can't be destroyed to create space for the new chemicals, where does the displaced air go?

Some of it goes into the engine.

Air is in a gaseous state, so pressure changes. Some gasses precipitate out (rain), others are used in other chemical processes (like photosynthesis) or dissolved into things like the ocean. Ultimately, the Earth loses some of its atmosphere through solar wind erosion, however this is seriously mitigated by our strong magnetic field.
 
I explained where th force of the dirt clod went, and I'm pretty sure we can't yet exert enough force on a planet to measure the change in rotation speed.

But it can and has been simulated on smaller rotating spheres with much lower masses.
 
If the answer to science is "We know that, so there's no reason to make sure we're right," we've already lost the battle...
Good thing that's not the answer. I have no idea why you think it is.

You seem to believe that you can provide examples that are unprovable, but they're all very provable and have all been proven.
-harry
 
Ok. So then, where does it go from there. Its in the air, but to enter the air, it had to displace somewhere, using the same theories, since air can't be destroyed to create space for the new chemicals, where does the displaced air go?
Why is air displaced?
 
Ok. So then, where does it go from there. Its in the air, but to enter the air, it had to displace somewhere, using the same theories, since air can't be destroyed to create space for the new chemicals, where does the displaced air go?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "destroyed". The oxygen is combined with the carbon and hydrogen in the gasoline to make carbon dioxide and water. You see the water sometimes as contrails.

In the old days, combustion was used as part of elemental analysis. The water was collected (collected with anhydrous calcium chloride), carbon dioxide was collected with potassium hydroxide. Careful weighing gives you how much carbon and hydrogen was in the sample; you then use this (and other information) to get the molecular formula.
 
Be careful about ignorantly smearing tens of millions in each camp just because they don't adhere to your view.

You have assumptions, too -- of did you not realize that?

I was thinking the same thing.

Nick is questioning (rightly so) laws he sees as authoritarian.

I would like to point out that the CoE and CoM are not some new magazine fad diet thing for physicists. These are "laws" (which are different from theories) which have been tested for literally hundreds of years. Each experiment has been scrutinized for validity. The scientific community is, by nature, very skeptical of anything new. CoE and CoM were a long time in coming and it took a fair amount of experimental proof to bring those to the level of a scientific law.

Nick, in one of your earlier posts you asked about where did the force go. Force is not a conserved quantity, so it doesn't get the same love that Energy, mass, momentum, angular momentum, etc.
 
My bright idea is to generate electricity using lenses to focus the sun's rays onto water in order to make it boil and turn a steam turbine... :idea:
 
Ok. So then, where does it go from there. Its in the air, but to enter the air, it had to displace somewhere, using the same theories, since air can't be destroyed to create space for the new chemicals, where does the displaced air go?

The O2 went into the CO2 and H2O. The total mass remained the same, but the temperature and pressure went up a lot. P*V = N*R*T. Pressure * Volume = Number of Moles of gas * Universal Gas Constant * Temperature.

And, since the temperature and pressure went up, we can get work out of the gas in the cylinder Work = Pressure *Differential Volume.

And since the gas does work on your pistons, your car gets you to the 7-11 when you want a Slurpee.

Pretty basic ****.

People I work with use these kinds of equations to do simulations of what happens in the engine all the time. And, based on those simulations, your engine got designed. And it worked. As planned. And once the engine works, I get to design the control systems. And make sure you get 0.068 pounds of fuel for every pound of air that you let pass the throttle body.
 
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Nick- it is very clear you didn't read some of the posts. If you did, you'd be somewhat peeved at me.

I'll pick on the paper example:

One thing not mentioned by others is that a theory not only has to explain observations, but also should make predictions that can be tested.

You asked where the weight went- this is the question that lead to the phlogiston theory. You burn something and there isn't as much weight as when you started. The prediction is that phlogiston has a mass since the paper ashes weigh less than the original paper. The phlogiston took the mass when it left the paper.

So- let's test this. Take magnesium, which burns very well. When burned, the residue is heavier than before combustion. This doesn't support the theory. There is a contradiction- this result suggests phlogiston has negative mass. If phlogiston has negative mass, the paper ashes should weight more than the paper did.

Now lets burn the compounds in a closed system. In fact, this experiment was done by Lavoisier- no weight change. This was the start of an important chemical principle- stoichiometry. Basically, you start with a mass of chemicals, perform a reaction, and the mass is still the same after the reaction. Lavoisier used a good balance to demonstrate conservation of mass.

I explained where the force of the dirt clod went, and I'm pretty sure we can't yet exert enough force on a planet to measure the change in rotation speed.

Speaking of phlogiston...

Ever read "The Chemical History of a Candle" - a transcription of a series of lectures by Michael Faraday from the middle 1800's. Great read.

Found it on line: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14474

Faraday was one interesting individual...
 
My bright idea is to generate electricity using lenses to focus the sun's rays onto water in order to make it boil and turn a steam turbine... :idea:

Works fine on the small scale for heating, built a unit from an old style satellite dish to heat a pool in St Louis. On the large scale, didn't prove quite so effective, I'm sure you've seen the big solar farm when flying over the Mojave desert, no longer in use....
 
Works fine on the small scale for heating, built a unit from an old style satellite dish to heat a pool in St Louis. On the large scale, didn't prove quite so effective, I'm sure you've seen the big solar farm when flying over the Mojave desert, no longer in use....
Then you should be surprised that there are currently five commercial solar projects in the pipeline. This just for the high desert of Southern California. At least one is scheduled to be operational by 2012.

Another 2, maybe three, are sited for Eastern San Luis Obispo County. One on the old site of ARCO's solar array built in the 80s.

Maybe someone is looking to hide their derivitive derived profits in losing construction projects. :dunno:
 
Faraday was indeed. For that matter, for some reason when I think of Faraday I also think of another great mind, Matthew Fontaine Maury.
 
I like the idea of a 'wave pump'. Very easy to convert this into rotation which drives a stator, etc.
 
Works fine on the small scale for heating, built a unit from an old style satellite dish to heat a pool in St Louis. On the large scale, didn't prove quite so effective, I'm sure you've seen the big solar farm when flying over the Mojave desert, no longer in use....

You mean the one just west of Barstow. Always thought that was to complex, too many moving parts to be practical.
 
Nick, you seem to think that science is fundamentally flawed. If so, why on Earth would you ever set foot in an aircraft???
 
Works fine on the small scale for heating, built a unit from an old style satellite dish to heat a pool in St Louis. On the large scale, didn't prove quite so effective, I'm sure you've seen the big solar farm when flying over the Mojave desert, no longer in use....
Why bother that way? To work well, parabolic reflectors (Satellite dish) need to track the sun. Just laying out a square of dark UV-protected bubble wrap did the job for me in New Jersey. It also kept a bunch of junk out of the pool when it wasn't being used. Commercial home solar heaters aren't much more than pipe under glass facing south (in this country).


Then you should be surprised that there are currently five commercial solar projects in the pipeline. This just for the high desert of Southern California. At least one is scheduled to be operational by 2012.

Another 2, maybe three, are sited for Eastern San Luis Obispo County. One on the old site of ARCO's solar array built in the 80s.

Maybe someone is looking to hide their derivitive derived profits in losing construction projects. :dunno:
I've heard of two solar projects one that is supposed to use molten sodium salt to transfer heat to an exchanger, the other using a Stirling engine. Are any of the these the ones you know about, or are these something else?
 
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Why bother that way? To work well, parabolic reflectors (Satellite dish) need to track the sun. Just laying out a square of dark UV-protected bubble wrap did the job for me in New Jersey. It also kept a bunch of junk out of the pool when it wasn't being used. Commercial home solar heaters aren't much more than pipe under glass facing south (in this country).


I've heard of two solar projects one that is supposed to use molten sodium to transfer heat to an exchanger, the other using a Stirling engine. Are any of the these the ones you know about, or are these something else?


Yep, easily accomplished with a Mead telescope tracker (From his unused Mead telescope in the basement) hooked up to the linear drives. It kept the pool warm all winter. I never got a chance to check it out, but he told me that he used it for the hot water source when he put in radiant floor heating. One thing we learned is that if you lose the pump you need a circulation switch in line that cues the tracker to take it off the sun or you melt the focal coils. We did it that way mostly because he had this big a$$ed satellite dish in the back yard that wasn't being used anymore and wanted to do something with it. It was Autumn and we were sitting on the deck, pool to cold to use and I said "Lets use it to make a solar hot water heater to heat your pool" and he said "F- yeah! Lets do it" so we did. Two bored fabricators drinking whiskey is the base answer to your question.
 
Yep, easily accomplished with a Mead telescope tracker (From his unused Mead telescope in the basement) hooked up to the linear drives. It kept the pool warm all winter. I never got a chance to check it out, but he told me that he used it for the hot water source when he put in radiant floor heating. One thing we learned is that if you lose the pump you need a circulation switch in line that cues the tracker to take it off the sun or you melt the focal coils. We did it that way mostly because he had this big a$$ed satellite dish in the back yard that wasn't being used anymore and wanted to do something with it. It was Autumn and we were sitting on the deck, pool to cold to use and I said "Lets use it to make a solar hot water heater to heat your pool" and he said "F- yeah! Lets do it" so we did. Two bored fabricators drinking whiskey is the base answer to your question.
Meh. Still too complex for what you wanted to do. The whiskey explains why.
 
Hey! They saved $563 dollars in fuel by spending $13,856 in materials!!

Yay renewable!!!


No sir, entire project completed for <$1000 spent + equipment laying around unused. Mirror guy provided the pentagonal and hexagonal (think soccer ball) mirrors for <$500 to cover the whole thing, mirrors attached with a few tubes of liquid nails. A large SS mixing bowl, a roll of 1" copper tubing and a pair of "Y" valves for the pool pump. It was completed in a weekend. The tracking controller came off a $400 telescope and was wired into the existing dish controller.
 
Meh. Still too complex for what you wanted to do. The whiskey explains why.

No, having a $70,000 race car in the garage explains why, can't just freaking throw black bubble wrap on the pool when you have that in the garage....
 
No sir, entire project completed for <$1000 spent + equipment laying around unused. Mirror guy provided the pentagonal and hexagonal (think soccer ball) mirrors for <$500 to cover the whole thing, mirrors attached with a few tubes of liquid nails. A large SS mixing bowl, a roll of 1" copper tubing and a pair of "Y" valves for the pool pump. It was completed in a weekend. The tracking controller came off a $400 telescope and was wired into the existing dish controller.
And I warmed my pool with <$100 of dark bubble wrap. No moving parts, kept junk out of the pool, and reduced chlorine use. It was completed in an hour.
 
Went looking for it in Google Maps. Found it.

You sure have some weird stuff in the desert out there. (What the heck is that, anyway? :dunno:)

I never figure that one out. Looks like runways of some sort. There are serveral things between Barstow and Palmdale that make you wonder what what was up. First unpopulated area north of LA.

Here's another with similar layout SW of the one you posted.
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=...18,-117.348275&spn=0.028956,0.051455&t=h&z=15
 
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And I warmed my pool with <$100 of dark bubble wrap. No moving parts, kept junk out of the pool, and reduced chlorine use. It was completed in an hour.

And that would keep your pool warm through a midwest winter?
 
No sir, entire project completed for <$1000 spent + equipment laying around unused. Mirror guy provided the pentagonal and hexagonal (think soccer ball) mirrors for <$500 to cover the whole thing, mirrors attached with a few tubes of liquid nails. A large SS mixing bowl, a roll of 1" copper tubing and a pair of "Y" valves for the pool pump. It was completed in a weekend. The tracking controller came off a $400 telescope and was wired into the existing dish controller.

OK, but the Law of Expenditure of Money means the stuff "lying around" was paid for at some point...?
 
And that would keep your pool warm through a midwest winter?
At least as well as your parabolic reflector. It might not point at the sun, but it has a lot more collecting area. People heat their houses with systems that are little more than pipe under glass and are oriented vertical and south.
 
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OK, but the Law of Expenditure of Money means the stuff "lying around" was paid for at some point...?

Yeah, but the satellite dish was scrap at that point and would have cost money to dispose of. The only other thing was the tracking controller from the telescope.
 
I never figure that one out. Looks like runways of some sort.

Except the long one is tapered... Maybe it's for the aliens. :dunno:

It actually is marked on the sectional as a closed airport. The western complex looks a lot like one of the old DC-3 or military fields, and the southernmost strip of it is marked as a runway 4-22 (apparently ~5,000 by 50 feet) while the other three look to be in a state of horrible disrepair.

But, that big tapered hunk of pavement to the right is what really has me curious. It's about 9,000 feet or so long, and the north end appears to be over 400 feet wide, tapering down to about 150 feet at the south end. It's got a building at the north end, a couple of visible instruments of some sort (sensor arrays?) on the centerline, and a big vertical structure (a reflector of some sort?) at the south end.

You can get near the entrance on Street View - But not close enough to read the sign, you can just see the big gate and the guard house.



Interestingly enough, the solar array itself is on the site of a former airport - Harper Dry Lake. Didn't know that until I looked at the area on airfields-freeman. Interesting!
 
You sure have some weird stuff in the desert out there. (What the heck is that, anyway? :dunno:)

Looks like a RADAR test range to me. Possibly early over-the-horizon backscatter variety. Here's the end of the range next to the runway you were centered on, zoomed in. Note what you can tell by the "antenna" structure by the shadow.

http://bit.ly/gZbC5N

The Russians built a monster, of something that looks quite similar...

http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2008/04/28/duga-the-steel-giant-near-chernobyl/

I didn't become a ham radio operator until 1991, but I heard the "Russian Woodpecker" and recordings from other hams I had met prior to me getting a station set up, and my first license...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Woodpecker

More general stuff...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-the-horizon_radar

The more modern "version"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAVE_PAWS

A few years ago the Air Force demanded that Amateur Radio operators on UHF (which is not technically an Amateur band, but is a shared band with the U.S. Military as Primary user, and Amateur Radio listed as a Secondary user "to be treated as Primary whenever possible" by NTIA), had to lower their transmitter power output significantly within a certain radius of these stations at Beale AFB, Cape Cod Air Force Station.

As one RF engineering professor acquaintance put it... "The only two ways to 'see' a reflected RF signal better are, a) raise the transmitter power for a better reflection, or b) make a significant change to the receiver sensitivity or selectivity. So if the Air Force already published that they could see something the size of 'X' with PAVE PAWS* and you know the amount they're requesting the Amateurs to lower their signal levels, you can do the reverse math and tell exactly how small an object they're looking for and/or make an educated guess about how far away it is from the receiver."

* The published numbers are probably disinformation and the true capability of the system could be lower or higher, but is likely higher, since it's still in operation today.

So, I did the math. The target is really small. And it's probably outside the atmosphere of the planet. :D There's an inverse relationship with size and distance in reflective RF tracking, so the smaller the object, the closer it needs to be for the same reflection... so you have to make some educated guesses within the ranges available... but they're probably not looking for school-bus sized objects outside of Earth orbit... if you know what I'm saying.

So, considering that with modern computers and controls, the venerable old phased array can probably re-aquire and switch targets way faster than most humans can visually process the data... probably a whole lot of "somethings" needed to be seen.

Then you watch the news, and notice that the rules for Amateurs went in around this date...

http://www.space.com/3415-china-anti-satellite-test-worrisome-debris-cloud-circles-earth.html

Well, anywhoo... not much of a mystery, really.

I've always had an interest in this stuff.

Related but not directly to this, is that the State of Colorado recently put a "Wide-Area Multilateralization" system in the Aspen valley for seeing aircraft on approaches.

Way cheaper than a RADAR, no moving parts, just a bunch of receivers scattered around at known ground locations, a transmitter to trigger your aircraft's transponder, and a very very accurate clock to tell "when" the receivers each heard your transponder's reply, gives the exact location of your aircraft from you having nothing but the usually required transponder on board.

It went operational some time ago, and is why Aspen is a "secondary targets only, no primary RADAR" facility. WAM was cheap...

I have photos a friend took of all the boxes... they are standard NEMA boxes on poles, with a couple of fiberglass "stick" antennas, a good ground rod and grounding system (lightning takes out more of our radio gear in the mountains than anything else around here, and 2nd place is bad power -- also caused by lightning) and that's about it.

They obviously had to be located at various places and the communications back to the central computer had to be timed and the delays from each site accounted for, but that's about it.

FAA approved it for use by Denver Center (ZDV) quite a while back, and integrated the WAM data into the same "RADAR" screens the controllers have always looked at... they don't even really need to know they're not looking at a traditional RADAR return. How it got there is immaterial to them.

Projects like WAM for the Aspen valley are so elegant, that they make ADS-B look expensive and silly. Big time. Everyone knows the game is rigged toward ADS-B here, and making the aircraft transmit their own locations. (Via a non-encrypted channel, I might add... think that's not a problem waiting to happen?)

WAM has some pretty cool potential to bring "RADAR" coverage to areas where it was far too expensive to deploy a traditional rotating 60's vintage array, or an 80's vintage phased-array "true RADAR" system.

But do you read anything about it in the Aviation press? Not much. They're pushin' ADS-B which is basically 80's vintage low-speed data with a defined block/packet size and defined data fields.

ADS-B is "high drag, low speed" as a different friend would say. ;)

But there's an awful lot of money and government bureaucracy shoving that boulder uphill.

Anyway, you got me thinkin' about cool RADAR toys again Kent... hadn't thought about that since the Air Force kicked some friends off of UHF a few years back, as mentioned above.
 
Related but not directly to this, is that the State of Colorado recently put a "Wide-Area Multilateralization" system in the Aspen valley for seeing aircraft on approaches.

Way cheaper than a RADAR, no moving parts, just a bunch of receivers scattered around at known ground locations, a transmitter to trigger your aircraft's transponder, and a very very accurate clock to tell "when" the receivers each heard your transponder's reply, gives the exact location of your aircraft from you having nothing but the usually required transponder on board.

It went operational some time ago, and is why Aspen is a "secondary targets only, no primary RADAR" facility. WAM was cheap...

Good summary but the location must be off a little. Aspen has primary radar. Sits near the Red Table VOR. So does Grand Junction. But a whole lot of mountain towns/ski resorts didn't. WAM is great. A group of Colorado Pilots helped with the testind and have hats to prove it. I believe they plan to add the southwest this year, Telluride, Montrose, Gunnison....

"Colorado WAM

Lack of surveillance at several of Colorado’s mountain airports is another challenge the WSA is addressing by deploying a WAM system under a cost-sharing agreement with the state of Colorado. As part of this agreement, the State of Colorado Department of Transportation in June 2007 awarded a contract to Sensis Corporation for a multilateration /ADS-B system. This system will cover the Yampa Valley-Hayden, Craig-Moffat, Steamboat Springs, and Garfield County Regional-Rifle Airports. "
 
Good summary but the location must be off a little. Aspen has primary radar. Sits near the Red Table VOR. So does Grand Junction. But a whole lot of mountain towns/ski resorts didn't. WAM is great. A group of Colorado Pilots helped with the testind and have hats to prove it. I believe they plan to add the southwest this year, Telluride, Montrose, Gunnison....

"Colorado WAM

Lack of surveillance at several of Colorado’s mountain airports is another challenge the WSA is addressing by deploying a WAM system under a cost-sharing agreement with the state of Colorado. As part of this agreement, the State of Colorado Department of Transportation in June 2007 awarded a contract to Sensis Corporation for a multilateration /ADS-B system. This system will cover the Yampa Valley-Hayden, Craig-Moffat, Steamboat Springs, and Garfield County Regional-Rifle Airports. "

It is in use in the Yampa Valley. It sure is nice to be able to get flight following just after taking off at Steamboat!
 
Works fine on the small scale for heating, built a unit from an old style satellite dish to heat a pool in St Louis. On the large scale, didn't prove quite so effective, I'm sure you've seen the big solar farm when flying over the Mojave desert, no longer in use....

You mean the one just west of Barstow. Always thought that was to complex, too many moving parts to be practical.

Martin Marietta was involved in putting that array in many many years ago. Back around 1982 or 1983 my boss and I had to figure out why the control system died from a "nearby" lightning strike. "Nearby" was several miles. It turned out that the control wiring was run in conduit, but the conduit was not terminated to the control boxes at each mirror. The magnetic field from the lightning strike (lots and lots of current, flowing current generates a magnetic field) induced current in the conduit. That current encountered a very high impedance at the unterminated end of the pipe, resulting in a high voltage across the gap. That voltage caused line drivers and line receivers to die throughout the array. Solution? We had them bond the conduit to the control boxes throughout the array. Problem solved.
 
Nick, you seem to think that science is fundamentally flawed. If so, why on Earth would you ever set foot in an aircraft???

Because they work. I can observe them working, and I can obvserve how they work.

Yet, you'll note that there is still debate over what causes flight to be possible....is it Bernoulli's Principle? Newton's Third Law? Combination of Both? Or maybe something else....

That is science. I'm sorry, but getting hurt because someone might suggest we have a small detail wrong that leads to large consequences is when science stops being science and starts being faith.
 
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