Was this legal?

TangoWhiskey

TangoWhiskey

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Feb 23, 2005
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Midlothian, TX
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3Green
Coming back into the home 'drome, from multiple actual IFR approaches on an IFR flight plan at other airports. 5 seconds after this video starts (the link drops you in at 1 hr 1 min 15 seconds into the video), he cancels IFR.

Let the games (discussion) begin. Would you have handled this differently, and if so, how? Intent here is learning, not throwing the pilot under the bus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRHllRN0UFU&feature=relmfu#t=1h1m15s
 
I don't think I would have posted that on YouTube.

At a minimum he was not meeting any VFR cloud clearance requirements after he canx IFR.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Can you get a contact approach clearance from the tower AFTER canceling IFR?
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Even if you could, he was already busting mins when he asked for it.

It is one thing if you make a bad decision (canx IFR too early) and try to fudge your way through it...it is a whole 'nother level of stupidity when you post your screw up for the world to see.
 
Wait, he cancelled IFR and then plowed through those clouds VFR? What was he doing requesting a contact approach (which it didn't sound to me as if he was cleared for; even if he had been, he still didn't remain clear of clouds; and I thought you requested those from approach control not tower).

Why did he even cancel IFR knowing he had a ceiling to descend through? Seemed unnecessary to me, but what do I know?
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Can you get a contact approach clearance from the tower AFTER canceling IFR?
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Not directly from the tower but they could relay one from approach or center (whoever "owns" that airspace for IFR traffic). What he might have asked for was a special VFR clearance (also comes from approach or center AFaIK) which is pretty much the same thing but doesn't require an IR etc, but from what I saw in the video he violated the visibility and cloud clearance requirements for either a contact approach or special VFR. That said I know it's difficult to assess flight visibility from a video.
 
azure said:
Why did he even cancel IFR knowing he had a ceiling to descend through?
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You'll notice he didn't listen to the entire ATIS, so he didn't hear winds, altimeter setting or ceiling information. Once he heard "HOTEL", he was done. The tower's call of "ceilings 1100, unable touch-n-gos", surprised him.
 
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Just because you can fly by instruments and you are talking to ATC doesn't mean you're getting separation. VERY DANGEROUS.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
You'll notice he didn't listen to the entire ATIS, so he didn't hear winds, altimeter setting or ceiling information. Once he heard "HOTEL", he was done. The tower's call of "ceilings 1100, unable touch-n-gos", surprised him.
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Exactly. He probably thought it was clear enough and was using the fancy GPS stuff to find the airport. I seriously doubt that he actually had the airport 'in sight' when he canx IFR.

As he proceeded, he realized that he had gotten himself in a bind and asked for the contact approach.
 
It's a good "learning experience" video... learn from somebody else's experience, that is!
 
Looks like he screwed up. He should have admitted his mistake and asked for another IFR clearance. The controller might groan at him and or vector him back around but i'm guessing he would get another clearance with little delay if he just asked for it..
 
TangoWhiskey said:
You'll notice he didn't listen to the entire ATIS, so he didn't hear winds, altimeter setting or ceiling information. Once he heard "HOTEL", he was done. The tower's call of "ceilings 1100, unable touch-n-gos", surprised him.
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Hmm... I'd have to listen to the whole thing to be sure of that. He was definitely surprised by "unable TNGs" but whether that was the first time he had tuned in the ATIS, and whether he knew there was a reported ceiling, I couldn't tell. I frequently listen to the ATIS once, 10 minutes or so out, then tune it in again just before calling up tower to be sure the same one is still current.

I know you said not to throw the pilot under the bus, but it seems that's what we're all doing since he acted like a complete scofflaw. Just trying to give him the benefit of whatever little doubt there is...
 
dell30rb said:
Looks like he screwed up. He should have admitted his mistake and asked for another IFR clearance. The controller might groan at him and or vector him back around but i'm guessing he would get another clearance with little delay if he just asked for it..
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Or a SVFR. But it seems he didn't care about even remaining clear of clouds.
 
I didn't know there was a such thing as SVFR landing. Thought it was only departure.
 
dell30rb said:
Looks like he screwed up. He should have admitted his mistake and asked for another IFR clearance. The controller might groan at him and or vector him back around but i'm guessing he would get another clearance with little delay if he just asked for it..
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I was with a student one night, we were in VMC and had been for some time, we were cleared for the visual approach and he accepted it. I could tell by looking at things that it did appear there was a chance this wasn't going to work out. A bit later the student realized his mistake and we told the controller we couldn't maintain clear of clouds and that we're climbing and requesting the RNAV. The controller cancelled our visual and vectored us to the RNAV. Things really closed up at that point and we ended up breaking out on the RNAV at around 600 ft.

Lesson was that just because the controller cleared you for a visual doesn't mean a visual is actually going to be possible even though we're in VMC when it was accepted. The airport had no automated weather and if you looked real close one could see that there were indeed clouds moving in quickly. Night can be deceiving. The nearest weather was only about 15 miles away and was reporting broken at around 4000 or so..which is what the controller went off.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
You'll notice he didn't listen to the entire ATIS, so he didn't hear winds, altimeter setting or ceiling information. Once he heard "HOTEL", he was done. The tower's call of "ceilings 1100, unable touch-n-gos", surprised him.
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TW, at the 1:01:15 mark you linked us to, he cancels first, then tunes into ATIS, which ends with hotel. Yikes!

The only defense I could possibly consider is that the controller announces India is current at 1:02:55. Perhaps the weather could have changed that much since Hotel. But given what the camera saw, that's not much of a defense.
 
azure said:
Hmm... I'd have to listen to the whole thing to be sure of that. He was definitely surprised by "unable TNGs" but whether that was the first time he had tuned in the ATIS, and whether he knew there was a reported ceiling, I couldn't tell. I frequently listen to the ATIS once, 10 minutes or so out, then tune it in again just before calling up tower to be sure the same one is still current.

I know you said not to throw the pilot under the bus, but it seems that's what we're all doing since he acted like a complete scofflaw. Just trying to give him the benefit of whatever little doubt there is...
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He may have also been relying on datalink WX for METAR reports.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 
Looks like maybe he simply wanted to get back into the home 'drome without flying an approach to save some time. But no, it was NOT legal or safe.
 
jesse said:
Night can be deceiving. The nearest weather was only about 15 miles away and was reporting broken at around 4000 or so..which is what the controller went off.
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I agree that night can be deceiving. I once accepted the visual at night to my home airport from 10-15 miles. Then I flew into a cloud I hadn't seen. It was only for a few seconds and I didn't have a chance to say anything before I was in the clear again. After that I was more careful about accepting the visual, especially at night. Those clouds can be invisible.
 
I went back and watched a bit more and he actually canceled around the 58 minute mark and around the 1:00 hour mark it appears he got the ATIS but I couldn't make out the identifier.
 
Without watching more than a split second, do we know he wasn't in class G airspace?
 
steingar said:
I hope FAA guys don't troll Youtube looking for pilots to bust.
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They have been known to. I remember they went after the guy that went IMC and smacked some trees while flying formation with an L-39 some years ago.
 
Inverted said:
Without watching more than a split second, do we know he wasn't in class G airspace?
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That was one of my first reactions but given that the towered airport was reporting an 1100 ft ceiling I'd say the chances of him being in Class G are slim and none (and slim just left town).
 
Inverted said:
Oops sorry, didn't realize he was going into a towered airport.
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I was going to say something about class G too but it was a towered airport. In that case SVFR would have been appropriate and got him his 1mi and clear of clouds...

Regardless it is rare that it is safe or prudent.
 
dell30rb said:
I was going to say something about class G too but it was a towered airport. In that case SVFR would have been appropriate and got him his 1mi and clear of clouds...

Regardless it is rare that it is safe or prudent.
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Even if he was SVFR he was most certainly in clouds after he cancelled. He was nowhere near "clear of clouds"
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Coming back into the home 'drome, from multiple actual IFR approaches on an IFR flight plan at other airports. 5 seconds after this video starts (the link drops you in at 1 hr 1 min 15 seconds into the video), he cancels IFR.

Let the games (discussion) begin. Would you have handled this differently, and if so, how?
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I wouldn't have canceled IFR. If cleared for a visual approach upon reporting the field in sight I'd have stayed clear of clouds.
 
Inverted said:
Without watching more than a split second, do we know he wasn't in class G airspace?
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We know he wasn't in Class G airspace when he can cancelled IFR or when he entered the KBDR Class D surface area.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Looks like maybe he simply wanted to get back into the home 'drome without flying an approach to save some time. But no, it was NOT legal or safe.
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Agreed.......

He knew the area VERY well...

Was it smart.... No...

Was it legal.. HE!! no..

Was it dangerous to him... Maybe just a little...

He was talking to tower so they both knew there was no other incoming traffic to hit..

IMHO, the key to this event is when he asked the controller when he got off work,, I believe the answer was 10, so my bet is this happened there more then once...:dunno:
 
I doubt the camera mount was legal so why should the flight be?

He probably didn't want to take the time for an approach so he cancelled otherwise he would have been vectored out beyond the FAF. At least he should have stayed IFR and flew the visual approach. There was no need to cancel that I could tell.
 
Cruiser said:
I doubt the camera mount was legal so why should the flight be?

He probably didn't want to take the time for an approach so he cancelled otherwise he would have been vectored out beyond the FAF. At least he should have stayed IFR and flew the visual approach. There was no need to cancel that I could tell.
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Yes, he probably didn't want to do the approach. Some pilots are lazy or in a hurry.

Last year I experienced this first hand. I and another plane a few miles behind me were coming to KEDC which had an overcast layer somewhere around 1000ft AGL or so. We were both with Austin Approach. I asked for the GPS 13 approach, and he cancelled IFR and reported the field in sight. Because of that he was able to take a shortcut and head directly for the field and so got in before me. I had just got my IR, so didn't think to say anything at the time (I was concentrating on the approach). In retrospect I should have told approach that there is no way he could have been able to cancel IFR. There were no gaps that he could have snuck through. Not that I want to play policeman or be a tattletale, but there are REASONS why we have these rules and pilots like that could one day run into one of us because they are too important/skilled to feel the need to follow the rules.
 
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