was she signed off for solo XC too soon?

[WannFly]

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/march/28/confusion-over-colorado

“I’m seeing clouds out front and behind me. Um, am I supposed to fly into them?” the Cessna pilot inquired.

“Sorry, can you say that again please?” Grijalva responded.

The Skyhawk was south of Centennial Airport, where the student had embarked on a route with the mountains of Colorado’s Front Range rising to the west, peaks that are 10,000 feet higher than the Great Plains from which these mountains rise. The student pilot reported clouds ahead, and behind.

“Should I fly under them?” the student pilot wanted to know.

Flying into clouds is among the most dangerous things a pilot without instrument training can do. Loss of visual cues is typically followed, about three minutes later, by loss of aircraft control for those unfortunate enough to make this particular mistake, a fact that Grijalva, as a certificated pilot, knew well. He calmly explained the limitations of radar, that he could not use his display to “see” the clouds closing in around the Skyhawk. He enlisted the help of another pilot flying in the area to get a better sense of cloud coverage and where to guide the student pilot.

Grijalva understood the student’s navigation and situational awareness were breaking down, and guided him step by step. He suggested basic maneuvers and pointed out a road the student could use to help find the way home. Once the student was safely clear of clouds and close to returning to Centennial, confidence seemed to return in the cockpit and the student mentioned Pueblo, the original destination, in an otherwise unreadable remark.

“Are you sure you want to do that?” Grijalva responded. “It seems like we had a lot of trouble getting you around those clouds, are you … are you sure you want to just double check, maybe wait another try? Centennial is there, 11 o’clock and six miles if you want to just wait it out a bit.”

The student saw the wisdom in the suggestion, and landed. Grijalva soon contacted the flight instructor and briefed the CFI on what had happened, and the CFI reported the student would be retrained before continuing the program.

“A disoriented pilot presents a challenging situation for any controller, especially when the pilot is inexperienced,” said NATCA Regional Vice President Doug Pincock, his remarks included in the program for the March 22 awards ceremony. “I am extremely proud to have such a skilled and dedicated professional representing the Northwest Mountain Region.”

b/w kudos to the Controller, great to know there is someone there to help out and someone kinda looking out for you...

 

[BigBadLou]

I think the answer is painfully obvious.
Mods, can you please lock the thread down before it devolves into a useless train wreck?

 

[MauleSkinner]

I don't think the answer is painfully obvious...there are often no real indications before solo regarding what a student will do under stress, and it sounds like she was stressed before the narration began.

It also sounds like after the stress was relieved, she did quite well.

The good news is that, unlike a lot of student, private, commercial, or ATP-rated pilots who got in over their heads, this one survived to be "retrained".

 

[MAKG1]

Mary mother of Jesus, yes, that was a too-early sign-off.

 

[MAKG1]

I don't think the answer is painfully obvious...there are often no real indications before solo regarding what a student will do under stress, and it sounds like she was stressed before the narration began.

It also sounds like after the stress was relieved, she did quite well.

The good news is that, unlike a lot of student, private, commercial, or ATP-rated pilots who got in over their heads, this one survived to be "retrained".

The student had to ask if it was OK to fly into clouds, and didn't understand ATC doesn't see clouds. Yes, it's obvious.

It may not have been so obvious to the instructor, but she clearly was not ready.

 

[MauleSkinner]

The student had to ask if it was OK to fly into clouds, and didn't understand ATC doesn't see clouds. Yes, it's obvious.

It may not have been so obvious to the instructor, but she clearly was not ready.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[MassPilot]

If the CFI didn't emphasize the dangers of VFR into IMC and make sure the student knew the cloud clearance requirements before signing them off for a solo X-C, then that was a huge oversight.

 

[WannFly]

well, i am pre - solo but even i know that ATC looks at a RADAR and doesnt see clouds (something i learned in POA.. can you believe that? and then verified at the tower ) and i know there is no way in hell i am supposed to fly through clouds. but god knows what i will do when there isnt a body next to me. i am not trying to blame anyone, may be the CFI over looked or she passed everything in theory and under pressure forgot things. definitely happens, but great lesson learned and for a change not the hard way

 

[jbrinker]

So- since the answer is obvious, I thought perhaps a perspective might prove more useful for discussion.

As a student not too far from this level of training (signed off on XCs but no checkride yet), I gotta say - yeah - clearly she was in need of more training. BUT with that said, on the first XCs sometimes things get a bit busy, we students get stressed, something does not go as planned, and can find ourselves in over our heads. Those questions she asked sound stupid - yeah, any student (before ANY solo) should know those answers. BUT I have to wonder if she was already way overloaded, and knew the answer (in the back of her head), and was looking for validation/help (without really saying "Help, I'm in over my head!") because students often are a) "scared" of the radio and b) not wanting to admit publicly that they are in over their head.

At least I can say, I've finally gotten over the fear of talking to ATC, and yeah - sometimes I might sound stupid, or have to pause or repeat a piece of info. But I've finally come to realize that those guys/gals are there to help and will do so if you just ask. Heck, I like listening to ATC when on longer flights just to hear some of the pro pilots screw up It happens to all of us.

OK - Edit. I just listened to the WHOLE thing. Yeah, that kid (sounds really young?) was no where NEAR ready.

 

[MAKG1]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Yet, that was the question.

The OP didn't ask if the CFI should have known better.

 

[hotprops]

good ending.that is all

 

[WannFly]

So- since the answer is obvious, I thought perhaps a perspective might prove more useful for discussion.

As a student not too far from this level of training (signed off on XCs but no checkride yet), I gotta say - yeah - clearly she was in need of more training. BUT with that said, on the first XCs sometimes things get a bit busy, we students get stressed, something does not go as planned, and can find ourselves in over our heads. Those questions she asked sound stupid - yeah, any student (before ANY solo) should know those answers. BUT I have to wonder if she was already way overloaded, and knew the answer (in the back of her head), and was looking for validation/help (without really saying "Help, I'm in over my head!") because students often are a) "scared" of the radio and b) not wanting to admit publicly that they are in over their head.

At least I can say, I've finally gotten over the fear of talking to ATC, and yeah - sometimes I might sound stupid, or have to pause or repeat a piece of info. But I've finally come to realize that those guys/gals are there to help and will do so if you just ask. Heck, I like listening to ATC when on longer flights just to hear some of the pro pilots screw up It happens to all of us.

completely agree. i never had the fear of talking to ATC (dont worry i have other fears), in fact my CFI always told me that i am one of the students who was very comfortable with ATC from day 1 (yeah, lot of you tube and liveatc baby..) anyway, a few weeks back, dont know what dawned upon me and i asked my instructor to rate me on whatever we did so far and he switched to Pro pilot mode and i was under a lot of stress.. so much so that i did everything wrong in my ATC call (there is a whole thread on this in lesson learned) including calling after run up and saying N123 is clear for take-off (even before they cleared me) and then end up cussing with the approach controller (nothing serious, but bad radio etiquette ) and messed up my take off... so yeah, under stress we do a lot of unworldly things....

 

[Zeldman]

Sensory over load.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If the CFI didn't emphasize the dangers of VFR into IMC and make sure the student knew the cloud clearance requirements before signing them off for a solo X-C, then that was a huge oversight.

The good news is there's no evidence of that...

Just as a point of reference, go arounds and visual patterns are required to be trained for pre-solo students, and are included on Private Pilot, Commercial (single and multi), ATP, and Type Rating checkrides, all of which I would consider more than sufficient emphasis on the procedures. I have, however, been in the right seat of a jet that was told to "go around, make right traffic" when the type-rated ATP in the left seat required guidance for both of those procedures.

 

[drotto]

It does seem easy (and is also likely) that it was too early to sign her off for solo XC, especially in a challenging area to fly in. With that said, it is not unreasonable to think she may have know all the right answers on the ground and froze when faced with the real situation

In that case I applaud her for making the right choice to call ATC, was able to follow directions, and get down safely.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[denverpilot]

The outcome was good. The planning and brief were bad.

I haven't heard the entire story behind this one, but I've seen that aircraft, know that club, and recognize that controller's voice. Might even know a couple of the CFIs over there, at least in passing. There's not any particularly "scary" stories or worrisome behavioral patterns out of that club, that I'm aware of.

I'm glad he got her off of her "target fixation" on PUB that day and got her back to the airport. That seems to be the critical problem once she was aloft. She shouldn't have been aloft, but I'm glad she decided to talk to a controller.

The fact that she called up with "student pilot" can indicate that she remembered at least one important thing her instructor taught that day... she sounded scared and not quite sure what to ask, but she'd been told to go to PUB and didn't want to let anyone down.

December over the Palmer Divide often brings upslope and lower ceilings in a localized area between APA and COS. As a more experienced pilot, I've squeaked through there before with legal cloud clearances and a wary eye for lowerings where the terrain rises to meet the clouds.

Thanks Aaron. Didn't know your name before today, but now I do. Nice save. Archie Award well earned that day.

 

[somorris]

well, i am pre - solo but even i know that ATC looks at a RADAR and doesnt see clouds (something i learned in POA.. can you believe that? and then verified at the tower ) and i know there is no way in hell i am supposed to fly through clouds. but god knows what i will do when there isnt a body next to me. i am not trying to blame anyone, may be the CFI over looked or she passed everything in theory and under pressure forgot things. definitely happens, but great lesson learned and for a change not the hard way

I suspect it is likely she just kind of got "bumfuzzled" (to use a word I learned a long time ago!) and her mind took a powder. It happens to a lot of folks under pressure, and her first solo cross country would definitely fit that description. She survived and added to her experience column. She will know better next time.

 

[Mistake Not...]

I don't know the details, but I DO know that sometimes you can be a lot smarter with a CFI in the plane. I'd explain it as "context dependent memory". That is, it's easier to recall information if you're in an environment similar to when you learned it. And since you just spent 10-15 hours with your CFI, you'll remember more when he's there than when he first gets out.

I remember this from PP instruction and I've noticed the effect recently. Suddenly everything's strange and harder to remember when the right seat's empty.

 

[citizen5000]

The real question is: How did she pass the written not knowing cloud clearances for VFR flight?

 

[Salty]

Perhaps she'd trained only in clear skies and had never considered clouds. Even if instructor covered it, if she never saw clouds maybe it wasn't important enough to remember - relatively speaking.

 

[Salty]

The real question is: How did she pass the written not knowing cloud clearances for VFR flight?

Ok, forgot written is required by then. Ignore my last post.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

Grijalva understood the student’s navigation and situational awareness were breaking down, and guided him step by step. .

I think the student pilot was actually a male. The audio sounds like a young boy, maybe teenager.

 

[MauleSkinner]

The real question is: How did she pass the written not knowing cloud clearances for VFR flight?

Thats the difference between "rote" or "understanding" and "application" levels of learning.

Probably didn't have 3 152s in sight at the time...

 

[James331]

I think the answer is painfully obvious.
Mods, can you please lock the thread down before it devolves into a useless train wreck?

Because there is nothing to learn here and censorship is always the answer??

I could understand how a student might not fully understand what radar can and can't see, many PPLs and above don't understand it ether.

For sure a stand up controller who made so every good suggestions and likley saved this students bacon.

 

[JOhnH]

I think the student pilot was actually a male. The audio sounds like a young boy, maybe teenager.

Can't be certain, but it sounded like either a female, or a 10 yr old boy to me.

 

[rk911]

I don't think the answer is painfully obvious...there are often no real indications before solo regarding what a student will do under stress, and it sounds like she was stressed before the narration began.

It also sounds like after the stress was relieved, she did quite well.

The good news is that, unlike a lot of student, private, commercial, or ATP-rated pilots who got in over their heads, this one survived to be "retrained".

agree. a student pilot on her first solo at my towered home field freaked out after take-off which was described to me as "normal". I'm told she was so agitated her CFI had to talk her down. she landed safely and actually went on to earn her PPL.

I recall a few instances of my heart being in my throat when I was in training including one while at 3500' on a solo XC when the Skycatcher's glass panel went totally dark. the plane was flying, the engine sounding good, I knew where I was (I happened to be crossing over a different non-towered field about 30-min from my home field. so I gained a bit of altitude and I circled the field while I double-checked the POH for the panel re-set procedure. I had the panel back in about a minute but I will confess that was a pretty long minute.

the other time was relatively early on while flying dual (pre-solo) and we were practicing getting lost and determining where we were and how to get home. I didn't panic but I became nervous when I couldn't match the chart to what I was seeing out the window. my CFI was very patient with me and over the next few lessons in unfamiliar airspace I became better at knowing where I was.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

Can't be certain, but it sounded like either a female, or a 10 yr old boy to me.

Voice was weird, but the article refers to the pilot as a "him," so that's more why I said that.

Either way, while I'm sure nerves played a big part in this, I lean towards putting fault on the CFI on releasing the pilot too soon for the xc. Even if he had only ever flown in clear skies, the instructor should have made sure that he really understood how to deal with clouds.

The real question is: How did she pass the written not knowing cloud clearances for VFR flight?

Ok, forgot written is required by then. Ignore my last post.

Written is not required prior to solo xc. I didn't take mine until a few weeks before the checkride. Although he should have done a pre-solo written with the school... can't remember if mine covered cloud clearances or not, but guessing it did.

 

[citizen5000]

§ 61.87 Solo requirements for student pilots.
(b)Aeronautical knowledge. A student pilot must demonstrate satisfactory aeronautical knowledge on a knowledge test (in written form or by a computer) that meets the requirements of this paragraph:
(1) The test must address the student pilot's knowledge of -
(i) Applicable sections of parts 61 and 91 of this chapter;
(ii) Airspace rules and procedures for the airport where the solo flight will be performed; and
(iii) Flight characteristics and operational limitations for the make and model of aircraft to be flown.
(2) The student's authorized instructor must -
(i) Administer the test; and
(ii) At the conclusion of the test, review all incorrect answers with the student before authorizing that student to conduct a solo flight.

Under Section C of 14 CFR 61.93
(3) For each cross-country flight, the authorized instructor who reviews the cross-country planning must make an endorsement in the person's logbook after reviewing that person's cross-country planning, as specified in paragraph (d) of this section. The endorsement must -
(i) Specify the make and model of aircraft to be flown;
(ii) State that the student's preflight planning and preparation is correct and that the student is prepared to make the flight safely under the known conditions; and
(iii) State that any limitations required by the student's authorized instructor are met.

 

[WannFly]

Voice was weird, but the article refers to the pilot as a "him," so that's more why I said that.

Either way, while I'm sure nerves played a big part in this, I lean towards putting fault on the CFI on releasing the pilot too soon for the xc. Even if he had only ever flown in clear skies, the instructor should have made sure that he really understood how to deal with clouds.




Written is not required prior to solo xc. I didn't take mine until a few weeks before the checkride. Although he should have done a pre-solo written with the school... can't remember if mine covered cloud clearances or not, but guessing it did.

i know there is a pre-solo test in my school and my CFI often asks me when flying ... so you see that cloud? how far are you required to stay below? what airspace are we in? how low can you legally fly over that barn? initially i thought he was trying to distract me for no reason when i am already over loaded when he pulled the throttle to idle (and has his hand on it so that i cant push it back) and i am trying to find a place to land this thing... but i think what he was trying to do is to asses how much i can remember under pressure

 

[MassPilot]

§ 61.87 Solo requirements for student pilots.
(b)Aeronautical knowledge. A student pilot must demonstrate satisfactory aeronautical knowledge on a knowledge test that meets the requirements of this paragraph:
(1) The test must address the student pilot's knowledge of -
(i) Applicable sections of parts 61 and 91 of this chapter;
(ii) Airspace rules and procedures for the airport where the solo flight will be performed; and
(iii) Flight characteristics and operational limitations for the make and model of aircraft to be flown.
(2) The student's authorized instructor must -
(i) Administer the test; and
(ii) At the conclusion of the test, review all incorrect answers with the student before authorizing that student to conduct a solo flight.

Under Section C of 14 CFR 61.93
(3) For each cross-country flight, the authorized instructor who reviews the cross-country planning must make an endorsement in the person's logbook after reviewing that person's cross-country planning, as specified in paragraph (d) of this section. The endorsement must -
(i) Specify the make and model of aircraft to be flown;
(ii) State that the student's preflight planning and preparation is correct and that the student is prepared to make the flight safely under the known conditions; and
(iii) State that any limitations required by the student's authorized instructor are met.

The knowledge test that it's referring to is not the formal written test that's necessary before the checkride. It is just the pre-solo knowledge test that is created by the CFI or flight school. The pre-solo test I took did not include anything about cloud clearances.

 

[Matthew]

Anybody know what the ceilings actually were?

My early days were spent watching cloud bases pretty closely. They can seem a lot lower than they really are. Maybe nerves? Maybe not ready? Either way, there's only ever one way to find out how you'll do on your first solo XC, and that's to do it.

My CFI and I spent quite a bit of time going over the wx before any of my XCs. I'm sure this student's CFI did too. Maybe the clouds looked lower than they were and the student got a brain vapor lock and froze?

 

[citizen5000]

The knowledge test that it's referring to is not the formal written test that's necessary before the checkride. It is just the pre-solo knowledge test that is created by the CFI or flight school. The pre-solo test I took did not include anything about cloud clearances.

Most CFIs will rely on the FAA administered written test if they are not part of a flight school that has the resources to administer a written test in the same way. The point being it is required that every student be administered a written knowledge test (or one on a computer) before they solo. Cloud clearances are basic knowledge and no student should be allowed to fly solo without knowing airspace rules and cloud clearances. Also, no student should be allowed to fly a cross country without a flight plan and that plan reviewed by the CFI prior to flight. Most CFIs will also require a student to call FSS and activate the plan and get a weather briefing before their flight.

 

[denverpilot]

The real question is: How did she pass the written not knowing cloud clearances for VFR flight?

Probably did, that's why their confused brain decided to ask the approach controller for help. The knowledge that the controller couldn't see clouds was the missing piece of information the student didn't have.

Anybody know what the ceilings actually were?

Pilot said there were clouds at their altitude and that they were at 8300. Just south of APA, terrain rises from the airport elevation of 5885 to 7000.

The other pilot said the clouds were lower, east. That's my house, and that's also really common in upslope conditions from the east, there's another lower ridge over there, and I'll have fog all the way to the ground here at home when APA has legal VFR cloud heights. Often.

Traffic pattern altitude at APA is 6885, 100 feet below the highest point on the Divide, and 1100 below where you'd need to be for 1000' AGL crossing it. Essentially 8000.

A new VFR pilot would probably say 8500 minimum, which coincides with the 500' VFR rule, which was probably what the flight was planned for, and where the pilot said they got into trouble... passing 8300.

The 7000' point is dead center at the bottom of the screen.

Note the almost 6500 point between APA and the dot, which is home for me. I'm on the other side of the low ridge at 6250 or so.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm also roughly at 15 miles at home, and you can draw a semicircle from my place, to the south and that's where the pilot said they were, 15 miles. If they'd been out here, they'd probably have been in clouds, and at 8500 they'd be busting the Bravo. Following the 15 mile radius around to the west, they're under the Bravo shelf.

 

[Matthew]

You lost me at 8300.

My local elevation here is roughly 1000. Now I have to math.

 

[midcap]

Yeah, no clouds for me.

 

[dmspilot]

The real question is: How did she pass the written not knowing cloud clearances for VFR flight?

Ok, forgot written is required by then. Ignore my last post.

Uh, what?

Most CFIs will rely on the FAA administered written test if they are not part of a flight school that has the resources to administer a written test in the same way. The point being it is required that every student be administered a written knowledge test (or one on a computer) before they solo.

Are you trying to say that "most CFIs" will require their students to take the FAA knowledge test in lieu of giving them a presolo test?

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

Are you trying to say that "most CFIs" will require their students to take the FAA knowledge test in lieu of giving them a presolo test?

News to me too. Never heard that one before.

Regardless, the FAA written exam is not required pre-solo, only pre-checkride.

 

[dmspilot]

Yes. I am saying that A. a written knowledge test is required before solo. And B. if a CFI does not have one (may be independent of a flying school) he/she will tell students to take the FAA test and bring the results for review.

Sorry, but that is utter BS, and is a violation of 61.87(b). You can't do that, and thankfully, I have never heard of instructors doing that.

 

[dmspilot]

My CFII did exactly that for me and as far as I know for all his students over decades of training them.

Your CFI has been violating the FARs, glaringly, for decades.