Was I wrong to ask?

If you hadn't called local for clearance yet, they're gonna put the regional in front of you anyway. While ATC is first come first served, they're not going to hold jets up that are ready for takeoff when they reach the runway for pistons holding short in a runnup area. I would have just let ATC work it out in this case.
 
It was about 9 PM local so perhaps they were in for a long night flight and were grumpy about it.

I went through my GoPro footage but guess I wasn't running a camera that day. Probably because I was doing night flying and there isn't much to see with such a small aperture.

In the future I'll definitely ask ground to sort these things out. I like doing things the right way.
 
I tend to say "ready to go in sequence." The "in sequence" is entirely spurious as far as the controller goes, but it avoids hard feelings that you're not jumping the line with other pilots.

My CFI did that, too. We'd end up in that situation once in a while, but not very often. I don't think it's happened to me in a long time. Once a piston single jumped the line in front of me (at a very large runup area). He then held short for what seemed like 5 minutes while he got his clearance. If I had been just a few seconds faster than him on my runup I'd have been out easy VFR. I told tower I was ready to go "in sequence", but had to wait on " that guy". Don't be "that guy".
 
Since it was a towered airport, the safe thing to say would have been something like "Ground, this guy can go ahead of me if he likes."

Tim

I agree. The OP does not have authority to transmit plane-to-plane on the ground control (or tower) frequency. I have on many occasions piped up on the ground or local freq to say "Ground" (or "Tower"), 1234x's baggage door is open" or something similar. The pilot of the plane referred to will get the message.

Bob Gardner
SAY AGAIN, PLEASE
 
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Not sure what the procedure at your airport is, but I would have called ground (or tower) to say I was ready but I would not have pulled in front of oncoming traffic on the taxiway if it was going to block access to the runway. I would never have thought of trying to negotiate my sequence at a controlled airport on the radio with another airplane rather than ATC. Maybe they were just surprised at the question.
:yes:. I agree
 
It depends on how fast they're taxiing.

Sometimes the corporate jets can have long release times (8+ minutes) and there is no way to get around them. Sometimes I get in front, sometimes they beat me to it.

If they give me an attitude, I'll return the favor. I don't really care about them.
 
It depends on how fast they're taxiing.

Sometimes the corporate jets can have long release times (8+ minutes) and there is no way to get around them. Sometimes I get in front, sometimes they beat me to it.

If they give me an attitude, I'll return the favor. I don't really care about them.

This was what I was trying to avoid. If I recall there was potential for marine fog a state or two away and I wasn't sure if he needed to hold for release. As people have clarified, I should have asked ground and not the other aircraft as they would know and it's the correct way to do it.
 
Not sure what the procedure at your airport is, but I would have called ground (or tower) to say I was ready but I would not have pulled in front of oncoming traffic on the taxiway if it was going to block access to the runway. I would never have thought of trying to negotiate my sequence at a controlled airport on the radio with another airplane rather than ATC. Maybe they were just surprised at the question.

At my class-c airport they clear you all the way to the hold short line from "clearance in hand, ready to taxi". Sometimes they ask about a runup and on one runway there is a spot (the other, there isn't). However, you just pull up to the line and call tower, I've never called ground again to move from the runup box to the hold short line (30 feet). Maybe I'm going it wrong, who knows.

On the other side without the runup box, I either do the runup near the hangars or FBO if nobody is around, or I just do it quickly at the hold short line.
 
In my experience, in a busy Class D, Ground will always notify me of traffic that may be a potential conflict without me having to call them
 
Hello all, new to the site.

As a current tower controller (and a pilot), allow me to shed some light from the other side of the radio, or at least put myself in the controller's shoes and explain what he may have been trying to communicate.

I work at a tower where we have multiple flight schools, lots of GA aircraft (both the weekend warriors and the regulars), and a lot of biz jets. We don't have any commercial traffic, but we do have on-demand charters.

What many pilots don't understand is how different ground and tower are, or rather how separated they are. Yes, we may be standing 20 feet away from each other, but we work very independently of one another. Did you know hat every time you are talking to ground and want to cross an active runway, as a ground controller I have to call the tower guy on a recorded inter phone and request permission to cross you across his runway, and after you've crossed I have to call him back again to tell him you're clear?

Ground and tower work together, but independently. A tower controller works much like a chess player, thinking and planning several steps ahead. It's what we're trained to do from day 1. If we didn't, we'd collapse and everything would go to pot.

We get Cessnas ready as biz jets pull up to go all the time. Controllers work on several principles, two of which are:

- First Come, First Served

- Operational Efficiency

Speaking for myself, if a Cessna 172 calls up ready to go and a Citation is 100 yards behind him, I'll tell the Cessna to hold and inform him he'll be #2, even if the Citation hasn't called me yet.

What happened to First Come, First Served?

Operational efficiency trumped. I won't go into details but there are rules (which are technically laws found in FAA Order J7110.65) which dictate when I can launch one aircraft behind another, depending on type and classification. If I launch the Cessna first, the Citation holds while the 172 rolls, lifts, flies, and turns. Approximately 2 minutes. Two minutes doesn't seem like a lot, but in our world it's an eternity. If I launch Citation first, Cessna holds 30 seconds, and as soon as the Citation hits it, I can launch the 172 behind. Much more efficient.

Now, why would ground reply like he did? Well, I can't excuse nor explain his tone (maybe he was having a bad day?). But I can possibly explain his reasoning. He is unable to answer your question. He doesn't know what tower--the chess player--is planning in his head. Tower knows he has a Citation coming, he also sees a 172 there. Chances are he's already planned for it. Ground doesn't know what tower wants to do based on the rest of what Tower has going on. From Ground's perspective, once you're in the run-up, I don't need to talk to you again, you can call tower directly (other airports may have different methods).

Now for the cynics. As a controller, if a Cessna cuts off my Citation and I need to launch that Citation, I'll move you. I'll have you do a 180, I'll have you pull off to the run-up, I'll even have you cross to the other side of the runway. Playing devil's advocate, if you were a pilot who pulled into a taxiway and for some reason something happened, you have had a pilot deviation. Ground has given you an instruction to a runway. If you opt for a run-up before departure, moving from that run-up requires a clearance to do so. The run-up is considered a movement area, controlled by ATC. To leave the run-up and block the entrance to a runway without clearance is a deviation. I have seen this first hand and seen how FSDO responds.

Will it ever come to that? No. That's all an extreme. Was the controller being an a-hole? Yes. Could/should he have responded better? Absolutely. I'm just trying to give you insight from the other side of things.

Hope that helps a little.

TL;DR: Ground couldn't answer your question but was having a bad day. Blocking a runway out of spite is a bad idea. Always better to call tower and call ready first before moving.
Nice to hear from a controller's perspective. Welcome to POA!
 
Playing devil's advocate, if you were a pilot who pulled into a taxiway and for some reason something happened, you have had a pilot deviation. Ground has given you an instruction to a runway. If you opt for a run-up before departure, moving from that run-up requires a clearance to do so. The run-up is considered a movement area, controlled by ATC. To leave the run-up and block the entrance to a runway without clearance is a deviation. I have seen this first hand and seen how FSDO responds.

Interesting; I didn't know that. (None of the controlled airports I operate out of use separate run-up areas.)

So take the following example:
I taxi from in front of the hangar to the edge of the movement area
I call up with "Pleasantville ground, Bugsmasher 123B, VFR westbound."
Ground replies "Bugsmasher 123B, taxi to 32 via Alfa."
Let's say twy A has a run-up area attached to it, and I pull over there and do a run-up. I now need to call ground for another clearance to taxi to 32, as by stopping I've "given up" the one I had?

I always assumed Ground would just give an instruction like "Taxi to the run-up area via Alfa" if they expected you to ask permission to go further.
 
The OP does not have authority to transmit plane-to-plane on the ground control (or tower) frequency.

This is really the only correct answer here, and I'm surprised by how many here aren't seeing this black-and-white part of the regs. Maybe I'm an intolerant schmuck, but I really don't like listening to plane-to-plane chatter on a controller's frequency, short of an emergency situation.

For me, if I'm within 30 seconds of being ready and departing VFR, I'm probably going to try to cut in front of this guy, with a "Ground, 5CY ready to go in less than a minute" call instead of having this guy pull in front, wait for an IFR departure release, and then wait another 2+ minutes for his wake to clear.
 
Yes and no. To move you need a clearance. Now let's say you saw another plane entering the run-up and you decide to reposition to allow room, you don't need clearance for that. You're in the run-up area, you can essentially move freely within. But to leave, you have to contact ATC. At our airport, we have a standing agreement that aircraft can contact Tower directly from the run-up. Tower can clear them for take off, tell them to taxi up to and hold short, or have them hold position, all without coordinating with Ground.

At our airport (we have 4 runways), aircraft actually have to cross the taxiway just to reach the runway edge (imagine taxiing, run-up is off your left, runway entrance off your right). When tower clears you for take-off, it clears you to cross that taxiway, even though he doesn't state it. Even if someone else is taxiing on it.

Also, as a side note, there's nothing wrong with going to the runway directly from the run-up, even if there's no leader line from it to the runway. NOTE: this may not be true at all airports.
That's interesting. The planes at the airport I fly at never contact ground again when leaving the run up area. They make initial contact and get a taxi clearance to the runway but almost all of them go to the run up area beside the runway without clearance. Maybe it varies by airport:dunno:. The only time ground wants us to call them back is if they are backed up in the run up area. A few weeks ago, the airport was super busy and there was a huge line holding short of one of the runways and no room in the run up area. I was cleared to another run up area and was told to advise when finished with the run up and ready to taxi to the runway.
 
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