Was I wrong to ask?

tehmightypirate

tehmightypirate

Line Up and Wait
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TehMightyPirate
So, here's something I was curious on.

A few weeks ago I was doing stop and goes for some night currency at my towered home field. Got my taxi clearance to taxi A to 33 which is at the end of the runway. At this end there is a very large run-up/holding area which I made use of in the event a regional jet in a hurry came through while I was doing my run-up.

Upon finishing my run-up I see a large business jet coming down taxiway A toward me. He's about 20 seconds or so from my position near to the hold line for runway 33. I could, rudely, cut in front of him safely but saw no need.

I chose to ask him over the ground frequency if he was ready to depart right away or should I go in front of him. This was my way of saying "hey, you're more important than me so please go first but if you're not ready mind if I pull up to the hold line?" He sternly replied back that "it was not up to me but rather the tower chooses who goes first". A little taken back by his tone I didn't reply and let him pass. He departed and I departed after waiting for some landing traffic. I was a little annoyed at him as I was trying to be nice and technically I was there first.

What would you have done? Is it right for me to coordinate minor conflicts like that or should only ground control be the one doing anything involving choosing who goes where at the movement areas? Also, would it have been wrong to pull in front of him (assuming we were safely apart and ignoring the fact that it would be rude)?
 
As soon as he took the stern tone, I would have pulled out in front of him and held short.
 
I've done exactly what you did twice before. Both received appreciative responses. If I'd have gotten a response like you did and there was still room to SAFELY get in front of him, I might've pulled forward to the hold line and called "Tower, Bugsmasher 12345 ready to go at 33."
 
And then If he popped off, I might have had a mechanical issue.
 
Maybe you should ask the Tower your question via a phone call or visit.
 
You're paying to idle, he is being paid to idle. If you can't pause the money meter cut everyone you can off(within the limits of safety, and as close to the limit of plausible denial for being a rude jerk as possible.):lol:
 
Since it was a towered airport, the safe thing to say would have been something like "Ground, this guy can go ahead of me if he likes."

Tim
 
^This.

I've never talked directly to the jet, but have:

"Tower, Bugbuzzer 234Q ready for take-off, but am happy to hold for the Citation if they're ready to go"

I usually get a big thumbs from the jet as they taxi by.
 
IMHO, ATC has final authority and as a means of respecting that your offer should have been directed to gnd/twr and not to the other aircraft. Perhaps the guy took a strong tone to remind you it isn't CTAF. Nice gesture, though.
 
I'm with the cynical bunch here. And I think I would probably do a very cautious and deliberate short field procedure. With the checklist, step by step.
 
mjburian said:
I've done exactly what you did twice before. Both received appreciative responses. If I'd have gotten a response like you did and there was still room to SAFELY get in front of him, I might've pulled forward to the hold line and called "Tower, Bugsmasher 12345 ready to go at 33."
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+1. I'm always as courteous and mindful as possible, but the second I'm crossed I get some great enjoyment in being a complete d*ck.

-Andrew
 
Perhaps he just thought that your used to operate at untowered fields and weren't familiar with towered ops. You are technically not supposed to talk to other aircraft on ground's frequency.

I bet you he was going IFR, and tower has to coordinated his takeoff time with departure, if departure can accept him tower lets him out. So tower really did know more regarding his takeoff time than he did.
Jets don't need to do runups, so if you see him coming up expect him to takeoff as soon as he's allowed.

For those of you that say that the TehMightyPirate pays for idle time and the jet gets paid, yes that is technically true. However it's likely that the plots in the jet are on salary and not paid hourly, so they are not making any more money by waiting.
Another issue is they could have been running out of duty day and a delay to takeoff could have made them turn back to the FBO and spend the night in the hotel (I've seen this happen a number of times).


So anyways, regarding the original question. No, you were not wrong to ask. Perhaps he was just offended by your wording for some reason.
 
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And to add to that, let ground work it out.
 
Henning said:
What other people do should not change what you do, you do what is right regardless.
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Then I would not have waited for the Jet.
If I was ready I would have just gone and ignored it?
 
tehmightypirate said:
What would you have done? Is it right for me to coordinate minor conflicts like that or should only ground control be the one doing anything involving choosing who goes where at the movement areas? Also, would it have been wrong to pull in front of him (assuming we were safely apart and ignoring the fact that it would be rude)?
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I would have called ground when I was ready to go. It is the ground controller's responsibility to coordinate minor conflicts like that. I would not have used the frequency to call another aircraft. I would not pull out in front of an oncoming aircraft.
 
Bobanna said:
No, you done good. Since you're a respectful, courteous, and skilled aviator, you did everything necessary to reduce conflict and facilitate traffic flow. Don't even worry about a "stern tone" or admonishments that you could have done differently. Now, if you were there in a '66 impala beater, maybe you could have lunged at his expensive sheet metal. What you did was perfect; you're the kind of pilot I like to be around. Blessings
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^^^^^^^My sentiments exactly.^^^^^^^

A couple of years ago, I taxi'd in front of a small jet with engines not yet started, at a very small airport where back taxiing to the run up box was necessary. He had a copilot and I could not imagine that at least one of them did not see me pass right in front of them while on the way to the runway.

I announced my back taxi and made it to the run up box. He was in a position where he could easily see me in the run up box. Just as I was finishing my clearing turn and about to announce take off, while he was already past the hold line, he came onto the runway at the same time announcing that he was back taxiing.

Rather than challenging him, I asked him in a very friendly tone if he would need the run up box, knowing all the while that he would not use it and that he was just trying to bull his way in front of me. I think he was expecting a challenge and was embarrassed by my friendly yield.

His response was surprising. He said that he had not seen me. Yeah right. I didn't know they let blind people fly jets.

It was actually no harm, no foul, but his apparent attitude of self importance was annoying. I did not let him know it.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Then I would not have waited for the Jet.
If I was ready I would have just gone and ignored it?
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That's fine, I likely would have as well since they always seem to sit there for a bit waiting for IFR release, I won't take long at all. Do you see the difference though? Whichever one does of their initial thought of what the right thing to do is is equal. The difference I'd if your initial instinct is to be courteous, and you decide as a reaction to rudeness to escalate the rudeness, you just went against your conscience, you are going against God's advice, then he can't help you when karma ****s you up. Simple as that.

It's not about what you do, it's about why you do it.
 
Thanks for all the responses, some good comments you gave.

My take away from this was:

1) He was rude.
2) I should have asked ground and not him but it wasn't really wrong to do what I did.
3) Unfortunately by the time he replied he was too close but I find it hilarious that many people here would cut him off. I'm a little too nice for that.
4) I will ask the tower people about this if I do a tower visit.
 
I don't know about all towered airports, but at the one I did my PPL training at (SLC) tower expected a call when the run-up was complete, before moving towards the hold line. And between a jet and a cessna, guess which got clearance first.
 
woodchucker said:
I don't know about all towered airports, but at the one I did my PPL training at (SLC) tower expected a call when the run-up was complete, before moving towards the hold line. And between a jet and a cessna, guess which got clearance first.
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Most places you finish your run up (you were already cleared to the runway by ground, that takes you to the hold short line) then pull up to the hold short and call the tower.
 
At my home 'drome they take care of this by special procedure. You can't leave the run up box without an additional taxi clearance.

Mainly done to stop the silliness of cutting jets off that they're trying to shove out on the TRACONs schedule.
 
Henning said:
Most places you finish your run up (you were already cleared to the runway by ground, that takes you to the hold short line) then pull up to the hold short and call the tower.
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So, no matter what you are driving you need to be aware of local procedures/customs.
 
tehmightypirate said:
I find it hilarious that many people here would cut him off. I'm a little too nice for that.
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That's just their ego talking, I'm willing to bet at least half the people that said they'd cut him off would realistically sit and wait quietly in the runup area.
 
MachFly said:
That's just their ego talking, I'm willing to bet at least half the people that said they'd cut him off would realistically sit and wait quietly in the runup area.
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Yeah but how many would quickly shut down, jump out, drop trou, and moon them?

Those are the fun people.
 
woodchucker said:
So, no matter what you are driving you need to be aware of local procedures/customs.
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No, I need to be aware of the standardized or published procedure. If there is some local custom they need to inform me of it on ATIS or otherwise briefed. Otherwise I cannot be expected to obey or know of their custom.
 
One time I was taxiing from the FBO to the runway at a small towered airport that has some regional carriers. Ground told me (I can't remember the exact identifiers but I think I'm close) 'taxi via delta, left on alpha to 20'
I got on delta and as I was coming to the alpha/delta intersection I saw a regional turbo prop coming down taxiway alpha. He was a ways off, but I still called ground and asked if I should wait for him, figured it would be courteous to not slow them down with my little c-172. ground's reply was basically 'did i tell you to stop? No, so don't!'
So I proceed to the run-up area. As the jet taxied by i saw the captain wave. First time i ever taxied with a much bigger plane and had them acknowledge me like that!

Basically i did talk to tower and still someone seemed annoyed with me. At least i can say i tried to be nice !
 

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Thought CO Express stopped flying the ATRs a long time ago. (Weird seeing that United stuff on the front, too.) Who operates those under a code share nowadays? I'm old. I remember when COEX wasn't a subcontractor doing a code share.

If you're ever in an ATR, ask the FA if the Captain will honk the horn. Heh.

(There's a silly little horn that's ostensibly for getting the ground crew's attention. It wasn't really ever much used for that, but it's good for a laugh when you're tenth in line behind bigger iron. Beep beep!)
 
I can remember two times when I exhibited some manners and did things that were not required but were appreciated and helped traffic flow.

One was when I was on final at the airline airport and tower said "xxxxU can you keep your speed up land short, take the first taxiway, DC9 behind you.

I had my 14-year-old son with me that day in the right seat, we both took a look behind us in the 182, and saw a huge airliner smoking down final seemingly right behind us. My son said "Geez." I said, no sweat.

I told tower, roger, wilco, first turnoff. Kept up my speed, landed, taxied fairly fast, turned off, and went way beyond the double lines just to assure the airline guy I was out of his way. Nothing we did was dangerous and I was happy to help.

Second time was on approach VFR to another airline airport, in contact with approach and they asked to keep speed up, regional propjet behind us. I said, well, we can do a 360 out here and let them go ahead of us. That was accepted, xxxxU, do your 360 to the right."

Everyone was happy. Can't we all just get along?
 
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I've been on both sides, flying a 182 and a turbine, I've always tried to be courteous of other pilots that might be faster or slower.
I would have called the tower and told them I was ready, but would be glad to wait for the jet to depart if he was going to be ready. :D That way the tower makes the decision, he knows if they can let the jet go or if he's gotta wait for the center. ;)
 
Well intentioned... But ground freq is not plane to plane.. Next time just tell ground/tower your offer and let them do as they may.
 
Not sure what the procedure at your airport is, but I would have called ground (or tower) to say I was ready but I would not have pulled in front of oncoming traffic on the taxiway if it was going to block access to the runway. I would never have thought of trying to negotiate my sequence at a controlled airport on the radio with another airplane rather than ATC. Maybe they were just surprised at the question.
 
I've never seen a jet that wasn't ready to takeoff, they don't do runups, if I was ready, check list complete I would have just pulled in front, don't have to worry about wake turbulence.
The jet pilot may mistaken your tone to be "are you ready to takeoff or not", it's tough to pick up inflections in voice over radio
Or maybe he was just having a bad day
 
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The fact that one regional pilot was having a bad day shouldn't deter you from being courteous in the future.
 
timrb said:
Since it was a towered airport, the safe thing to say would have been something like "Ground, this guy can go ahead of me if he likes."

Tim
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I agree. In a positive controlled environment I do not speak directly to any aircraft on frequency unless the controller asks me to do so. Make the call to the controller and indicate you can wait if the other traffic is ready go.
 
I tend to say "ready to go in sequence." The "in sequence" is entirely spurious as far as the controller goes, but it avoids hard feelings that you're not jumping the line with other pilots.
 
Doggtyred said:
Well intentioned... But ground freq is not plane to plane.. Next time just tell ground/tower your offer and let them do as they may.
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+1. I've heard ground sternly bash some pilots who were have a direct conversation ... "STAY OFF MY FREQUENCY." I would just call tower and tell them you're ready to go but make the same offer -- the other pilot will likely hear it and appreciate it, or not. Either way, your karma is covered.
 
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