Was I unreasonable?

TCABM said:
Thinking differently, if it wasn’t in the contract for the seller to deliver it to a location of the buyer’s choosing, then I’d think it’s “As Is, Where Is”.
Click to expand...
I put in the contract to deliver within 100nm my request- that is what started the problem when I discovered the airplane was not at its home just outside chicago in the civilized world.

Done so I could find my own spot that was easy for us both to get in and out of - but the guy is in Florida with his new twin and I'm in Southern California and the airplane is locked in Wisconsin.

As for using airplanes to go find an airplane - as I said, I'm in Southern California and the airplane is in Wisconsin - I'm not flying my airplane 2000nm - and then back to go get it. Thats insanity.
 
steingar said:
To be honest, the minute I hear that the seller is in Florida and the airplane in Wisconsin, I’m done. If the seller couldn’t be bothered to fly up and sell his airplane, what kind of care is he really giving it? It’s a buyer’s market and there are a lot out there. My first airplane I flew all over the place to sell, and spent a day at the airport with the buyer. I did what I had to do to sell it. I flew my second airplane to bloody Georgia in August to unload it. If the seller isn’t willing to do what it takes he or she can find another buyer. Good luck with that, and I hope he enjoys paying hangar fees all winter for an airplane he’s not going to fly. Sellers can be so utterly stupid.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with this. The second the buyer said no to meeting me would send up red flags for me. About the seller's serious intent to sell, the care they have given the airplane and just what type of person I'm dealing with.

Clark1961 said:
He didn’t like your requests and you didn’t like his counter. Quite frankly it appears you value your time more than you value other folks time.
Click to expand...

I disagree. Comanchepilot clearly gave value to the seller's time. He didn't ask that it be flown the 2000 miles to him in Southern California. He didn't even ask that the seller fly back from Florida to deliver it to Chicago. He asked that the seller make arrangements for the plane to be flown back to its usual homebase outside of Chicago. Failing that he asked that it be flown to an airport in Milwaukee and as a third option even offered to have it flown to an airport near his in-laws. The seller refused all 3 and could only offer up a solution that involved flying the plane in an hour in a 4th direction. The seller was already going to have to arrange travel from his home to the airport to fly the plane back to its home base; even if he has a pilot-mechanic who can fly it back to Chicago for him, he'd still have had to arrange to get the mechanic back to their home airport.

Now that the deal has fallen through, the seller is stuck with an airplane at an airport that isn't its home base so he's likely paying double for the tie down. He hasn't sold the plane and he's still going to have to arrange its transport from the airport its at to its home base in Chicago.

comanchepilot said:
I put in the contract to deliver within 100nm my request- that is what started the problem when I discovered the airplane was not at its home just outside chicago in the civilized world.
Click to expand...

If it was in the contract and the seller refused, they violated the terms of the contract plain and symbol. In agreeing to the contract and then refusing to honor all the terms, they are being totally unreasonable.

Now the question if you were unreasonable is a bit more nuanced.

How much did you agree to pay for the plane? After all, what's $150 cab ride on a $100,000 airplane? A cheaper airplane I might have more understanding as it's a greater percentage of the total amount. On the other hand, I'm also the type that gets upset with my local FBO when they dont return my calls to schedule the airplane or tell me they're cancelling my flight due to "high cross winds" that are below even their student minimums (seriously it was 10-12 gusting to 15 kts at 30 degrees) or because they want to go home. If you want to take my money I shouldn't have to do all the work and in this case, I'd be ****ed that they weren't willing to deliver it even 100 miles.

What's an extra 2 or 3 hours flying the owner's pilot in the opposite direction on a 2000NM XC? Even if its a 200Kts airplane, you're probably looking at having to stay somewhere overnight. Then again, 2 or 3 hours flying the owner's pilot in the opposite direction is about equivalent to the driving option both in time and money, though the flying option probably is a little more in both.

As others have pointed out, you probably could have found a pilot here on POA willing to fly you out there or you probably could have negotiated a further discount on the plane to cover unexpected travel costs.
 
The deal wasn't good enough to make it worth either of your whiles. If you're OK with the outcome, you are not unreasonable. The guy I bought my first and only airplane from flew it almost 200NM each way just so we could check it out before we'd even agreed on a price. We said, "We'd be interested if it's as represented and the price is right." He said, "I will fly it to you and you can check it out." Only after he'd flown 400 miles round trip did we agree on a price. Then we went to him for the prebuy and pickup. Different levels of motivation.
 
apr911 said:
I disagree. Comanchepilot clearly gave value to the seller's time. He didn't ask that it be flown the 2000 miles to him in Southern California. He didn't even ask that the seller fly back from Florida to deliver it to Chicago. He asked that the seller make arrangements for the plane to be flown back to its usual homebase outside of Chicago. Failing that he asked that it be flown to an airport in Milwaukee and as a third option even offered to have it flown to an airport near his in-laws. The seller refused all 3 and could only offer up a solution that involved flying the plane in an hour in a 4th direction. The seller was already going to have to arrange travel from his home to the airport to fly the plane back to its home base; even if he has a pilot-mechanic who can fly it back to Chicago for him, he'd still have had to arrange to get the mechanic back to their home airport.

Now that the deal has fallen through, the seller is stuck with an airplane at an airport that isn't its home base so he's likely paying double for the tie down. He hasn't sold the plane and he's still going to have to arrange its transport from the airport its at to its home base in Chicago.
Click to expand...
You are making several assumptions about the seller that are all of the "this may be true but aren't necessarily true" nature. It is true that the buyer did not request time from the seller. It is also true that the buyer requested time from other people. The services of those people were to be arranged by the seller.

You also are ignoring the nature of the buyers re-location and transportation requests. This was a simple negotiation on who was paying a particular cost and neither the buyer nor the seller wanted to pay. The buyer's requests involved using other peoples' time to save the buyer time. The buyer refused to invest two hours of his own time for the ride the seller offered to arrange. It is clear the buyer valued his time more the any of the people he requested be involved in getting him to the aircraft.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That's great, but doesn't work for alot of buyers.

The first time a lot of my customers see their new airplane is when I show up with it at their home airport. May sound crazy, but it happens….quite frequently.

Might not be the best way to buy an airplane, but a lot of folks really are buying planes sight unseen.
Click to expand...

Is it truly sight unseen or are they availing themselves of modern photo and video tech? PDFs of logs? Sending their own mechanic to look it over remotely? Anything?

I guess it’s weird that I’m old enough that you’d have to do that by developing film and FedExing a box with everything to the prospective buyer back when I started flying, so that would be a different kind of “sight unseen” than today’s version, I guess.
 
Flavius Renatus said:
Hey Comanchepilot,

I am based out of KMLI, and will help if you need it.

Flav
Click to expand...
Thanks - appreciate it! We're still talking because I'm willing to spend some money to get the airplane from where it is, to a CFI where I can get signed off - then put the ferry pilot on airplane back home.

I'm really trying here - there are several coordination issues afoot - and getting info back from people is a slow process. Even if its their job.

I have no Mooney tme - jets and 1000hrs pic in hig perf retracts, but no Mooney Time - so the carrier want 2 hours of transition time. . .. in make and model. And they interpret model as specific model - any long nose mooney is no sufficient.

so I have to find a CFI with lots of Mooney time since CFI-s with M20K time are not that common.

To answerr questions - @denverpilot yes - its modern Log PDF's - photos - discussion on the phone with the last two mechanics- good documentation and then a good contract specifying the logs are accurate and all AD's complied with. with a 1 year tail on that - and no liens - and good tail on that as well. Plus using escrow to transfer title.

It's sitting in annual right now - so questions and photos and info are obtainable.
 
comanchepilot said:
Thanks - appreciate it! We're still talking because I'm willing to spend some money to get the airplane from where it is, to a CFI where I can get signed off - then put the ferry pilot on airplane back home.

I'm really trying here - there are several coordination issues afoot - and getting info back from people is a slow process. Even if its their job.

I have no Mooney tme - jets and 1000hrs pic in hig perf retracts, but no Mooney Time - so the carrier want 2 hours of transition time. . .. in make and model. And they interpret model as specific model - any long nose mooney is no sufficient.

so I have to find a CFI with lots of Mooney time since CFI-s with M20K time are not that common.

To answerr questions - @denverpilot yes - its modern Log PDF's - photos - discussion on the phone with the last two mechanics- good documentation and then a good contract specifying the logs are accurate and all AD's complied with. with a 1 year tail on that - and no liens - and good tail on that as well. Plus using escrow to transfer title.

It's sitting in annual right now - so questions and photos and info are obtainable.
Click to expand...

Drop by MooneySpace and ask about Chicago area CFIIs with K-time. I'd help out, but only PP from AL with C-time, so I miss all three . . . .
 
denverpilot said:
Is it truly sight unseen or are they availing themselves of modern photo and video tech? PDFs of logs? Sending their own mechanic to look it over remotely? Anything?
Click to expand...
Yes, photos are involved. How detailed is debatable. But they aren’t sending their own A&P or even having a local shop do any kind of prebuy.
 
This reminds me a lot of the guy who didn't want to pay the mechanic for the work done because he hadn't finished ALL the work agreed to.
 
comanchepilot said:
Thanks - appreciate it! We're still talking because I'm willing to spend some money to get the airplane from where it is, to a CFI where I can get signed off - then put the ferry pilot on airplane back home.

I'm really trying here - there are several coordination issues afoot - and getting info back from people is a slow process. Even if its their job.

I have no Mooney tme - jets and 1000hrs pic in hig perf retracts, but no Mooney Time - so the carrier want 2 hours of transition time. . .. in make and model. And they interpret model as specific model - any long nose mooney is no sufficient.

so I have to find a CFI with lots of Mooney time since CFI-s with M20K time are not that common.

To answerr questions - @denverpilot yes - its modern Log PDF's - photos - discussion on the phone with the last two mechanics- good documentation and then a good contract specifying the logs are accurate and all AD's complied with. with a 1 year tail on that - and no liens - and good tail on that as well. Plus using escrow to transfer title.

It's sitting in annual right now - so questions and photos and info are obtainable.
Click to expand...
Just FYI.

My CFI here has Mooney time, not sure if she has K time, but I know she has J time. Just let me know if you need any help.

Flav
 
0 mooney time, but those insurance requirements seem a little extreme, did you shop the insurance much

I'd give air power insurance in AZ a call if not.
 
James331 said:
0 mooney time, but those insurance requirements seem a little extreme, did you shop the insurance much

I'd give air power insurance in AZ a call if not.
Click to expand...
i don't think TWO hours of transition time is all that outrageous. . . was better than the other two quotes at 5 hours!
 
comanchepilot said:
i don't think TWO hours of transition time is all that outrageous. . . was better than the other two quotes at 5 hours!
Click to expand...

No,not at all, but the EXACT model is a little out there
 
Clark1961 said:
You are making several assumptions about the seller that are all of the "this may be true but aren't necessarily true" nature. It is true that the buyer did not request time from the seller. It is also true that the buyer requested time from other people. The services of those people were to be arranged by the seller.

You also are ignoring the nature of the buyers re-location and transportation requests. This was a simple negotiation on who was paying a particular cost and neither the buyer nor the seller wanted to pay. The buyer's requests involved using other peoples' time to save the buyer time. The buyer refused to invest two hours of his own time for the ride the seller offered to arrange. It is clear the buyer valued his time more the any of the people he requested be involved in getting him to the aircraft.
Click to expand...

Two sides to every negotiation. Frankly for the negotiation to break down over this is unreasonable of both parties yet quasi-wars and actual wars between nations have been fought over seemingly-less.

Yes I am making assumptions of the seller but you are making similar assumptions of the buyer.

I'm not usually a fan of the "customer is always right" mantra but I'm definitely on the buyer's side in this case. If the seller doesn't want to come back from his trip in Florida to sell HIS airplane and take the seller's money, that's his business but the request to relocate the plane BACK to its home base is perfectly reasonable. Unless he can find a buyer willing to go pick it up from the middle of nowhere, its going to have to be done at some point (yes I am assuming the seller isn't permanently changing home bases; if he is, he picked some stupid sh*t timing to relocate the plane to some place off the beaten path) so placing the onus on the buyer to get to the plane just seems missed placed in this instance. The alternative offered by the seller doesn't solve the issue of having access to a major airport (and airlines) or place to stay should the weather turn bad and that's as much a safety issue as it is a money one.


If I'm going to hand over a bunch of money, I shouldn't have to do all the work. And no that's not an assumption; the sellers post was quite clear that the buyer put very little if any effort into working out a amicable solution to both parties, refusing or ignoring all suggestions out out of hand.

comanchepilot said:
At first I asked the plane be delivered about 120 nm away where I have inlaws - its December when the deal would close. I wanted to be someplace I could hang in case the weather turned. He refused - because he's not there.

I suggested Milwaukee. OR Waukesha - someplace I can return a rental car. With a hotel. Someplace I could get to. It was a 30 min drive from this small town airport to Waukesha. I asked if someone [mechanic / broker / etc] could fly it there- and I'd pick it up. Refused.

Maybe a friend, or relative or mechanic could come pick me up, or return a car for me. Refused to ask.

So the deal fell through. I had several ideas and suggestions for getting me to the airplane - all of which were ignored or refused.

I just thought its unreasonable to put an airplane at a virtually inaccessible spot and expect the buyer to fly 2000 miles to come get it - and not be willing to find someone to drive him the last 20 miles. . . .
Click to expand...
 
James331 said:
No,not at all, but the EXACT model is a little out there
Click to expand...

Seems to be reasonably common among some underwriters for some airplanes. Examples:

- I was hired to fly a PA-32R-301T. The open pilot warranty specified make and model, which I confirmed with them to mean NOT just similar aircraft, but exact M/M. So, PA-32-301T, PA-32R-300T, etc., weren't close enough. (So I just got added as a named pilot based on my other experience.)
- I was hired to fly a Beech G36 (G1000 Bonanza). Exact G36 time was required. A combination of A36 (non-G1000) and G58 (G1000 Baron) was inadequate. Insurer would not budge, I didn't get the job.
 
apr911 said:
Two sides to every negotiation. Frankly for the negotiation to break down over this is unreasonable of both parties yet quasi-wars and actual wars between nations have been fought over seemingly-less.
Click to expand...

Where are these “nations” that the people want war over petty things?

The politicians often do, and speak eloquently of the need for War until the people think they want it, too.

But people generally don’t want war. Or quasi-warlord whatever that is.

It’s a construct of manipulative jerks in power and government operated public schooling that teaches that “nations” want war.

It plays better in the press than saying THEY want wars, and the people must sacrifice and die, for their idiocy and power games.

Such wording allows a disconnect from the reality that some doofus in public office decides when “we” should go to war and then Congress plays along.

Similar wording makes it seem like a nice game of Risk, or something equally innocuous when one hears they’re “ sending trroops”.

Not... “Sending the neighbor kid to die.” Which is usually more accurate.

Yeah I know I know. The kids volunteer. We’re a military family. I get that.

But think about the subtle ways the wording manipulates people who for the most part, never want war and never will, and could care less about what some pizzant dictator is doing in the Middle East. Or Southeast Asia.

“We” almost never want war. The politicians think they need them far more than any of “us” do, until they crank up the propaganda machine and make the used car salesman pitch that “this time, it’s different”.

I don’t like the not so subtle manipulation. People buy it. And that’s usually never good.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Might not be the best way to buy an airplane, but a lot of folks really are buying planes sight unseen.
Click to expand...

Not crazy at all. Think about it, if you aren't sufficiently invested in a community to know a good mechanic, one is as good as another. You have a stranger do a pretty on a strange airplane, you might not have the wherewithal to examine it yourself anyway. If all is well you have it delivered and trust your luck. Basically, exchanging time for money, and exchange we make all the time.
 
steingar said:
Not crazy at all. Think about it, if you aren't sufficiently invested in a community to know a good mechanic, one is as good as another. You have a stranger do a pretty on a strange airplane, you might not have the wherewithal to examine it yourself anyway. If all is well you have it delivered and trust your luck. Basically, exchanging time for money, and exchange we make all the time.
Click to expand...

The part you missed is that these people aren’t having ANYONE look at the airplane for them in advance.
 
steingar said:
To be honest, the minute I hear that the seller is in Florida and the airplane in Wisconsin, I’m done. If the seller couldn’t be bothered to fly up and sell his airplane, what kind of care is he really giving it? It’s a buyer’s market and there are a lot out there. My first airplane I flew all over the place to sell, and spent a day at the airport with the buyer. I did what I had to do to sell it. I flew my second airplane to bloody Georgia in August to unload it. If the seller isn’t willing to do what it takes he or she can find another buyer. Good luck with that, and I hope he enjoys paying hangar fees all winter for an airplane he’s not going to fly. Sellers can be so utterly stupid.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I was thinking.
 
denverpilot said:
Where are these “nations” that the people want war over petty things?.
Click to expand...

Off the top of my head, the best examples I can think of is the Pig War of 1859 between the US and Great Britain. I consider that a quasi-war since there was no bloodshed but here are others...

There also have been times when 2 countries under the rule of the same monarch have gone to war against each other (talk about being at war with yourself)
 
Considering the magnitude of the escalation in relation to the triggering event, the First World War might qualify.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
Hey @Radar Contact , since he doesn’t want your help, can you fly across the Atlantic and take me flying again in your awesome twin? I’m going through withdrawals.
Click to expand...
I have looked at the flight (in dream mode) and it's very doable with the 163 gallons I carry. Maybe one day I'll hit you up for the European tour! Got some new props and avionics since you last flew in her. She's coming around.
 
I'm based out of KDPA. If you want to ride in a Bo to head over, let me know. It will sour your life with the backwards tail you are getting , but its a free ride. :)
 
Palmpilot said:
Considering the magnitude of the escalation in relation to the triggering event, the First World War might qualify.
Click to expand...

Yes, if the measure is the magnitude of difference between triggering event and final consequences, WWI takes the prize, even without including WWII as a continuation of what turned out to be an incomplete resolution.
 
apr911 said:
...the Pig War of 1859 between the US and Great Britain.
Click to expand...

In high school our US History teacher was a retired lawyer and a Yale grad.... next to my cost accounting professor in college and instrument flight instructor one of the best teachers I ever had. I had study hall prior to his class and sometimes I would go the library and find some insignificant US History factoid to see if I could stump him.. So far the score was Teacher 20... Ventucky 0. One day with the help of the librarian I came across the Great Pig War... I had asked about in class and thirty minutes later I knew more that what was in the school encyclopedia where I got my notes....

Thanks for bringing back the memory..
 
charheep said:
I'm based out of KDPA. If you want to ride in a Bo to head over, let me know. It will sour your life with the backwards tail you are getting , but its a free ride. :)
Click to expand...
Howdy neighbor. I'm over in ARR but live by DPA. Was shooting approaches at your field yesterday.
 
I'm and instructor with J time. If that helps and you're still in need, let me know.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top